[quote]
Originally posted by Tanhaa:
**Dost, Why dig up old wounds. Whats the use. I'll tell you how?
Some Mullahs were travelling around the world talking about Islam, the people loved the message and millions converted. They tore down their own temples and churches and stuff, built Musjids and all have been living peacefully with the rest of the world till today.
Now lets discuss todays problems , instead of fixing the past.
[This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited August 10, 2001).]**
[/quote]
well tanhaa unlike other of my co-religionist here i would not completely disagree with you on the subject yes there have been excesses by muslims on the inhabitants of india in past but just ponder over a few things that i would like to throw light on
1) if islam was forced on hindus by means of sword then perhaps the first people to be converted to islam would have been the upper caste brahmins and rajputs .and on the contrary a large number of muslims from the indian subcontinent were converts from lower caste or lower class
the lower caste converts who accepted islam had many reasons to do so .the tyrany and the humiliation suffered at the hands of the upper caste and the brahmins and islam surely gave them dignity and self respect
3.there were some converts who may have converted to gain greater acceptibilty or favor from the ruling clan
4.there was a strong presence of many sufis and saints who spread islam in the most gracious and noble manner and the best eg is of khwaja moinuddin chisti of ajmer.
and besides the muslim invasion of india was not really a islamic invasion or a religious invasion .it was more of a territorial invasion and the invaders did not have the differentiation between hindus and muslims when they invaded thier aim was to invade rule and plunder muslims or hindus alike were not spared. after all, ** babur came to india after defeating ibrahim lodhi who was also a muslim**. besides the mughals themselves appart from aurangzeb sahab were all secular remember akbar married jodhbai so the next generation of mughals had hindu blood in them. and to all those who are talking about bin qasims sindh quest well friends remember that india is a very large country .islam may have been introduced in sindh by bin qasin but muslims are there in almost every village and down of india right from kashmir to keral and from baluchistan to bengal so please keep a broader outlook
and last but not the least yes there were invasions of india and you can go right up to the aryan invasion who came here and made dravids or dalits servants in thier own land
so please look at it as a political and military invasion and not a religous invasion.
[This message has been edited by kabir (edited August 14, 2001).]
mughals invaded india same way aryans invaded
the real native people's lives never changed.
they still remain at bottom of the society.
afterall mughals and aryan came from same area.
[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
***Answer: You are wrong again. I have lived in Saudi Arabia and there is no such thing described above. Saudi has only one law and it applies on every one, doesn’t matter who you are and where you from. No one is harassed as it is quiet well known that if only Muslim countries get to gather then US and all the other non-Muslim countries can be in a deep trouble for their wrong doing.*
Saudi Arabia doesn't allows Sikhs to enter their country..because Sikhs used to worship Guru Granth Sahib in their homes, which Saudis couldn't digest and they banned all Sikhs from entering Arabia. I hope this gives you an idea of respect for minorities and other religions that exists in muslim countries.
There was an article posted on this forum regarding harassasment of Hindus and Christians in Pakistan..most of them have to adopt muslim names to escape constant discrimination.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 13, 2001).]**
[/quote]
Rani! Very good point... I must tell you a bit of history as far as Saudi Arabia is concern... It is a Islamic country and Pratcising a religion where you have a hand made god is concern, Islam doesn't permit that and may be that is the reason for Sikh to be denied the access to the country...
I might be wrong as I don't know exactly what the case is but I am more then happy to listen to you.
[quote]
Originally posted by Abdali:
** No no no there is no harasment of minorities in India its the land of milk and honey and no no no UAE, Kuwait, Malysia etc...are not muslim countries but hindu countries and muslim go there to work.**
[/quote]
It surprises me that UAE and Kuwait is not Muslim countries... by the sound of what you have said above, you are living in a different world then the reality. Ha ha haaa
I don't seem to understand what are you trying to say here... We are trying to discuss the issues and sharing the knowledge but from you three, it sounds like that you are not even in the mood to discuss let know talk about the true facts.
We all live in different countries then our own but still you haven’t changed what so ever. The true and honest way of going forward from here is to be honest to yourselves and to others. Tell the truth and should have enough guts to face the truth.
Rani! I have notice a very narrow minded person.
Mdnaseer! You don’t even know your own Identity, so you better find out what you are and where you from.
I must say, at least I am honest to myself. I tell the truth the best to my knowledge but you guys seem to get off the track every time we are discussing some thing to do with Country and Religion. All I can say to you two is GROWUP and stick to the TOPIC.
**"
well tanhaa unlike other of my co-religionist here i would not completely disagree with you on the subject yes there have been excesses by muslims on the inhabitants of india in past but just ponder over a few things that i would like to throw light on
1) if islam was forced on hindus by means of sword then perhaps the first people to be converted to islam would have been the upper caste brahmins and rajputs .and on the contrary a large number of muslims from the indian subcontinent were converts from lower caste or lower class
2. the lower caste converts who accepted islam had many reasons to do so .the tyrany and the humiliation suffered at the hands of the upper caste and the brahmins and islam surely gave them dignity and self respect
3.there were some converts who may have converted to gain greater acceptibilty or favor from the ruling clan
4.there was a strong presence of many sufis and saints who spread islam in the most gracious and noble manner and the best eg is of khwaja moinuddin chisti of ajmer.
and besides the muslim invasion of india was not really a islamic invasion or a religious invasion .it was more of a territorial invasion and the invaders did not have the differentiation between hindus and muslims when they invaded thier aim was to invade rule and plunder muslims or hindus alike were not spared. after all, babur came to india after defeating ibrahim lodhi who was also a muslim. besides the mughals themselves appart from aurangzeb sahab were all secular remember akbar married jodhbai so the next generation of mughals had hindu blood in them. and to all those who are talking about bin qasims sindh quest well friends remember that india is a very large country .islam may have been introduced in sindh by bin qasin but muslims are there in almost every village and down of india right from kashmir to keral and from baluchistan to bengal so please keep a broader outlook
and last but not the least yes there were invasions of india and you can go right up to the aryan invasion who came here and made dravids or dalits servants in thier own land
so please look at it as a political and military invasion and not a religous invasion."**
Wah wah kabir Bhai, an excellent balanced and factual response. I agree with you whole heartedly.
People just use religion to suit their own private agendas. And yes, A lot of lower caste hindus converted glady to Islam and these days to Christianity because of the discrimination of the caste system.
[quote]
Originally posted by mbmagsi:
**Hay listen Rani and Mdnaseer (From Karachi)...
I don't seem to understand what are you trying to say here... We are trying to discuss the issues and sharing the knowledge but from you three, it sounds like that you are not even in the mood to discuss let know talk about the true facts.
We all live in different countries then our own but still you haven’t changed what so ever. The true and honest way of going forward from here is to be honest to yourselves and to others. Tell the truth and should have enough guts to face the truth.
Rani! I have notice a very narrow minded person.
Mdnaseer! You don’t even know your own Identity, so you better find out what you are and where you from.
I must say, at least I am honest to myself. I tell the truth the best to my knowledge but you guys seem to get off the track every time we are discussing some thing to do with Country and Religion. All I can say to you two is GROWUP and stick to the TOPIC.**
[/quote]
Mr MDMagsi
Iam Allah came to pakistan to clean all impure minds in the pure region
busy f u c k you later
The attitude you have showen above stated “busy f u c k you later” sounds like you are not enjoying the TRUTH… At least it shows your mentality which is been proved on many occasions…
Just because you live in a non-muslim country does not mean that you are treated as a first class citizen.
The fact remains that Eurocentrics still class themselves as the superior race. Whether it is intentional or unintentional or whether it is direct or indirect discrimination, you and me are still labelled and stereotyped as black b......! Why do you think positive action programmes are in existence in these countries.
We have different Faiths out of choice, but when a perception of our background is made, we are equally 'darkies' according to the USA and major Eurocentric countries.
Please don't be fooled into a false sense of security by the country that you live in.
Religious tolerence has been observed by ISLAM for 'donkeys years', but Human nature is such that only the negative is remembered and not the positives!
I wonder when your country will see a Black, Hindu or Muslim Premier!
I think every body is blood pressure is high enough now, we should stop arguing baselessly. I think this it the time when a MODERATOR should close a thread.
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Why does muslims talibani people wanna tag people of other religion?
Why does Pakistani passport tags the citizen's religion?
Why do gulf-countires don't allow building Churches or temples? or even having pictures or idols of their faith?
It is a fact, "CONTITUTIONALLY NON-MUSLIMS ARE SECONDARY CITIZENS IN MANY MUSLIM NATIONS". "CONSTITUTIONAL DISCRIMINATION IS ENFORCED.".
Thank god, it is not so where I was born, nor where I live - both nonmuslim nations, which constitutionally tries to protect minority muslims.
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited August 14, 2001).]**
[/quote]
Kumarakn!
I can understand your frustration. I also can see why you have these attitude towards the Arab countries. I can't defend Arab countries as I don't know but sure will try and find out their reasons for you.
I live in England and I know there are towns who don't have Mosques and even Mandirs. They have opened Mosques and Mandirs in houses. People are trying for ages to get this sorted but still haven't got the answers from the counsel. So I can say that people do have problems in First World Country like England, France.
I think everybody's blood pressure is very high now. Enough garbage spilled in this thread too. This is the time when a moderator should show his/her responsibility to close a thread.
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**I think everybody's blood pressure is very high now. Enough garbage spilled in this thread too. This is the time when a moderator should show his/her responsibility to close a thread.
------------- The End ------------
**
[/quote]
.....Don't loose your temper....
No ones Blood pressure is high but your's I'm not too sure about... I think Kumarakn is talking with some logic.
Sholay wrote: Please don't be fooled into a false sense of security by the country that you live in.
At least they try..they don't have words like Kaffir in their dictionary and they don't catagorize people on basis of religion.
They don't call people narrow minded if anybody questions discriminatory practices and ask silly questions like, why do u have to go there etc...they respect individual freedom.
Like Kumar i am glad i live in a non-muslim free country..i am free to travel and nobody asks me what my religion is..
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 14, 2001).]
Sholay wrote: Please don't be fooled into a false sense of security by the country that you live in.
At least they try..they don't have words like Kaffir in their dictionary and they don't catagorize people on basis of religion.
They don't call people narrow minded if anybody questions discriminatory practices and ask silly questions like, why do u have to go there etc...they respect individual freedom.
Like Kumar i am glad i live in a non-muslim free country..i am free to travel and nobody asks me what my religion is..
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 14, 2001).]**
[/quote]
Rani! The word "Kaffir" is a simple word for those who don't believe in one God like Hindu is a name. Now we all know we have names for things we do and believe in.
I am sure you and Kumar prefer living in non-muslim country and all that but how hard did Black people had to fight to get the right to Vote. It is easy to say what you did but really hard for those people who gave their lives for the right you have today.
I put you a straight question. I was once refused the visa for India just because I am British and Pakistani citizen. Can you explain? I can say the same things about India been very narrow minded and all that but no because both the countries (India and Pakistan) do that to each other....
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Why does muslims talibani people wanna tag people of other religion?
Why does Pakistani passport tags the citizen's religion?
Why do gulf-countires don't allow building Churches or temples? or even having pictures or idols of their faith?
It is a fact, ]"CONTITUTIONALLY NON-MUSLIMS ARE SECONDARY CITIZENS IN MANY MUSLIM NATIONS". "CONSTITUTIONAL DISCRIMINATION IS ENFORCED."
Thank god, it is not so where I was born, nor where I live - both nonmuslim nations, which constitutionally tries to protect minority muslims.
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited August 14, 2001).]**
[/quote]
In other response, you acknowledged that all these three folks are here not to DISCUSS, but to "bash" Pakistan, Islam and "Muslim" countries. Yes, if my blood pressure goes up, its because people tend to 'argue' instead of 'discussing' without showing the 'civilized-being' of this century. These people just want to criticize.
Look back at their postings.
They criticize Taleban for asking minorities to wear badges without knowing why they did so.
They criticize Saudi Arabia for not allowing entry to non-Muslims into Mecca or Medina, they don't realize that these places are "sacred" to Muslims and not "museum" or "historical buildings".
They don't want to be called "kafir", because they know they are, but don't want to be reminded perhaps.
Now, how are these three related to the title of the thread.... all these come out of their hatred for Islam, Pakistan and Muslim countries.