Oh i meant CONSERVATIVE GIRL.
Kya ho raha hai mujhe!!!!! SHEESH
ConservativeGirl,
I think the only discussions of mahram vs. non-mahram issues in the Quran are in reference to whom you can marry and in front of whom you must be fully clothed. Please someone correct me if I am forgetting something. The rest were restrictions that were added on later rather than being laid down by Allah.
About Mohammed's sunna, please refer me to the part of the Quran where it says we should follow Muhammed's sunna over the sunna of all the other prophets' sunnas. He was sent to bring us the last book, and to attract people to its teachings.
I know that I am expressing unpopular ideas here, but I really believe they are true. Read over the Quran with this idea in mind, and you may end up agreeing with me also. But try to read with an open mind. Remember, it also says in the Quran that you should not follow the religion of your parents if your parents are not following the book (Jewels, I can produce a quote for this one!).
Zara
Hum sa,
How can you agree with what ConservativeGirl/Samreen says (about how boys and girls cannot be friends and that non-mehrams must not associate) and still say what you said in the Marriage forum about choice in marriage?
Hum sa:
"It doesn't matter wether it's 1990s or 1890's.......children should be given full liberty in choosing their life partners."
How can you choose your life partner if you're not allowed to associate with non-mehrams? What will you base your choice on?
Zara
Ma'am,
I only accept such hadith which does not contradict koran, but i certainly disagree to your claim that all hadith is crap. Althoguh i agree to the fact that a hadith can not add onto the koran, and that serious problems have been caused by hadith, i claim that it does not give you enough reason to throw it all away.
Sunna is a very important aspect fo religion, as has been mentioned in the koran. Uptill now i was trying a logical debate but as i see you are not willing to believe that way, i'll move straight to the word of the koran.
[quote]
Then I read the Quran from cover to cover and noted that we were asked to follow the Quran alone.
[/quote]
** Chapter 3: The house of Imran, verse 31 **
This verse makes it clear that for those who love god, it is necessary to follow Prophet Mohammad. Allah's love can be gained if we follow prophet Mohammad, rather than solely resort on instinct. So know it, the correct way of prayers, fasting and zakat has been shown to us by the prophet, rather than the christians or jews who reject him.
So yuor claim to read koran from cover to cover seems vague now. Its all that the words you were using were far too superlative. thats one way to get your point strong, i must agree. But lets compare your point of view with the koran now.
** Pichthall** *
Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.*
** Yusufali** *
Say: "If ye do love God, Follow me: God will love you and forgive you your sins: For God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." *
** Shakir ** *
Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL *
** Sher Ali ** *
Say `If you love ALLAH, follow me; then will ALLAH love you and forgive you your sins.' And ALLAH is Most Forgiving and Merciful. *
** Rashad Khalifa ** *
Proclaim: "If you love GOD, you should follow me." GOD will then love you, and forgive your sins. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful *
** Arberry: ** *
Say: ' If you love God, follow me, and God will love you, and forgive your sins; God is all-forgiving, all compassionate.' *
Please draw conclusions yourself. What i see is that contrary to what you said, we are not ordered to follow the koran alone, but the prophet too. well.. like.. i'm not forcing you.. koran is. And this is not the only verse, but one of the few.
Jewels,
I AM TRYING to be logical, and I know that you are, too. It is possible for two people to be logical and still disagree.
I have already read the verse that you quoted, and have thought about it a lot. By asking us to follow the messenger, Allah is asking us to follow the message that he brings, which is the Quran. He does not say "do what Muhammed does." He says, follow the Quran.
Zara
You did not associate any described logic to the interpretation you made.
** fattabe'ooni ** always means, "do what i do" and never "follow the book that i bring."
** itbaa' ** always means do "to copy someone's deed". "To do as he does". There is no contradicting example in arabic language dictionary and literarture.
You disallow the prophet to interpret koranic verses, saying they are enough to be followed without expllanations. However you chose the interpretation and explanation way yurself! strange .. isnt it?
you explained "talking secret lovers" as "adultry". i didnt speak. You interpret "follow me" as "follow my book". I let you go. But when prophet puts forth such an expnataion, you claim he has no right to! thats a bit too unfair with the prophet, isnt it?
Its just that you do not want to believe. You have a brilliant mind until you make it up. then for every why you have a wherefore.
Ma'am you're just defending your opinion as if you were defending your inheritance.
It belongs to a person, fearful, to believe.
Just clear out something for me.
On one hand you say we dont need any interpretation or explanation of the koran. You claim that when hadith explains a verse, it is rather adding onto koran. So one must believe in the words of koran as they are.
Now that i present my point of view in clear words of koran, which tell us to follow the prophet, you choose to disbelieve in the words, and give an explanation. ( which is totally against the rule of the language! )
If you have the right to put forth yur own explanations, no matter how strange they are, then the prophet must have an equal right to put forth an explanation too!
There can only be two cases:
1) Explanations count
This would give us all the reasons to believe in the explanatory ahadith
2) Explanations dont count:
in such a case you have no choice but to believe in the clear word of God, who asks us to follow the prophrt.
suggest a third case.
Zara ji....I'll let you know exactly what I think about this topic.
1: It's not allowed religiously to have "affair" with anyone. Right? Right.
2: As far as choosing the life partner is concerned..you get to know people over time, you get to meet them at various occasions. And if you think you want to marry them, you confront them directly and find out whatever you want to about them i.e, have a straight forward conversation with them. And not have a "chakker" them with or anything like that. Huddod mein reh ker bhi baat ho sakti hai.
3: Madam, do you disagree with the Sunnah of our Holy Prophet (pbuh)? If you do, then sorry, there's no way I can make you understand anything related to this topic.
Jewels,
Thanks for the insult! Anyway, I do not have a problem with Muhammed interpreting the verses of the Quran, I am sure that he was the most qualified of anyone to do this. He was a selfless man, working for the betterment of all people. What I do have a problem with is people attributing to Muhammed all sorts of things, including lies, then collecting them into books, and asking the rest of us to follow them (Hadith). I do not think that all Hadith are crap, as you put it, but some of them are. The amount of controversy surrounding Hadith is an indication of their unreliability.
You say that you don't follow Hadith that contradict the Quran. Well, if you admit that some contradict the Quran, how can you trust them as a body of knowledge/guidance? If you follow a Hadith which speaks on a subject not covered in the Quran, how do you know that it is based on the will of Allah?
I don't know Arabic, instead I read different translations. If the phrase in 3:31 means "do what I do," this still does not conflict with my interpretation. What was Muhammed doing? Following the Quran. His purpose on earth was to present the Quran and inspire people to follow it.
I can understand everyone's desire to pillory me because of this, but please try to think about what I'm saying with an open mind, and don't just dismiss it offhandedly.
Zara
Dear Hum Sa,
I know you're probably really getting tired of me at this point, but I never know when to quit. In a sense I agree with your reply. I think that we can agree on this, even if our religious views differ to an extent. You said:
"1: It's not allowed religiously to have "affair" with anyone. Right? Right."
About this I agree with you, if by "affair," you mean "sexual relationship."
You also said:
"2: As far as choosing the life partner is concerned..you get to know people over time,
you get to meet them at various occasions. And if you think you want to marry them,
you confront them directly and find out whatever you want to about them i.e, have a
straight forward conversation with them. And not have a "chakker" them with or anything like that. Huddod mein reh ker bhi baat ho sakti hai."
This also makes sense to me, but I don't think that there would be anything wrong with developing a close relationship with this person that I want to marry. As long as things do not develop into a sexual relationship. I do not think that the Quran prohibits us with having friends of the opposite sex, that was the point of my original post that started all of this controversy. Do all of you really disagree with this? I personally could not choose a life partner without knowing that person very, very well.
Sorry I offended you. I can tell that I have offended when I am addressed as Zara ji, Madam, etc. 8-)
Zara
Hehe Zara bibi, it takes a lil more than that to offend me ;)
Now coming back to our discussion...the reason why Islam prohibits us to have "close" relationships with the members of opposite sex is that at times, MOST of the time, these seemingly harmless relationships lead to physical relationship. Maybe YOU are mature enough to not to get into such a mess but you see, most of the people aren't that sensible. The temptation at times is too much to resist (speaking from others' personal expereince). So as to not to take any kind of chances here, our religion does not allow us to have a love affair (excluding sexual relationships......that's definitly not allowed).
jewels of...
i am not exagerating, in the quran the other day i read a verse( which i don't remember the nuber etc.) that we couldn't have boy/girlfriends, i took it as meaning in the sense of dating,etc., not friendship. you took my meaning wrong. i will try to find it, but i am kind of ahead of it. and you are wrong when you say. this post is not based on that verse, its based on b/c i am girl who has many friends that are boys with the line ending there. I was brought up that no dating type boyfriends, and i know of some people who are muslim that have them, and i know that my parents and most others get very touchy about being good friend with a memeber of the opposite sex.
hum sa- i loved your last reply.
everyone-what i was talking about had nothing to do with sex. i was just posing a question that i know many people ask themselves. if they may be getting to involved, i am too young for marriage and such right now anyway.
back to jewels, i will try to have found the original verse i was talking about in the beginng for you by tomorrow.
714! That would be great if you could find that verse. I had thought I was going crazy by remembering a verse that didn't exist. Maybe we both read a modern translation which used the word "girlfriends," while others are used to reading more traditional translations. If you can't find it, I am prepared to continue to look silly.
Zara
714,
now i'm unbelievably curious to see the verse :)
I dont usually urge for verse number or anything, and would normally trut anyone just because he claims he read it.. but this one;s something that has surprised me. please understand, i do not claim you lie, i just badly want to read the verse.
atleast tell me what is a boyfriend called in arabic? i mean it seems kinda strange. possibly unbelievable to me because had it been so unique as how you word it, that i mustve remembered it.
i'm however neutral as far as the actual topic is concerned.
Dear Zara ( dah! this sounds cordial :))
okay i give up on the essay that i had written for you. i mean we agree to quite a point. and you pose quite a reason. even if it is necessary to follow the prophet , how do we know what we're being told is exactly what the prophet did. This is entirely and completely logical.
but think. If it is not what prophet did, and we still do it, it wont harm us really, will it? i mean theres nothing to lose.
But if it actually WAS what the prophet did, and we reject it, then theres a lot to lose.
although we have no reason to believe that all hadith is true, we do not have enough reason to believe that all hadith is false. be moderate. dont be superlative.
I think this thread is turning to harsh.. can we like, leave things alone.. take some time to think about it, consider the other person's point of view.. probably come back again later on. please?
Did anyone find the verse yet, if its not in quran or hadith its wrong to be close or for unmarried boy and girl to be alone. Find the verse and post it quickly. Read it carefull it doesnt say married ok....
Jaawan
Till next time*K_I_S_S*
It is stated in the quran, (Para 15, Surah Bani Israeel):
Wa la taqrabuz zina .....
Translation: And do not go near zina (illegal sexual intercourse)...
It all depends on how you define "go near". Most scholars consider looking at members of the opposit sex as going near zina, because one may be attracted by looking at them, and then drawn towards them, then the relationship may become intimate.....
Also, in the 18th and 22nd paras, men are ordered to keep their gazes low (i.e. not to look at women). And in the 22nd para, women are told to cover themselves with a large cloth (i.e. shawl, burqa, etc.)
dera sir, i have stated more than once that i know the verses of zana, and i dont need them. i was talking about the specific verse which had been discussed earlier in the topic.
Hi Jewels,
Not only does Allah say that if we love him we should follow the prophet, the next verse goes on to say that we should 'OBEY Allah and his messenger.' However, when the Qur'an says that we have to obey the messenger then it does not stop there only but also identifies as to what is the divine message that is bestowed on the messenger and in turn the messenger propagated to the people. The following verses inform us what is that divine teaching that the messenger received from Allah and is then delivering to mankind: "O Messenger! Deliver what has been revealed to you from your Sustainer and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people." (5:67)
The following verses clarify as to what consists of
"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything
"And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you;" (5:48)
Again it is confirmed that the messenger received the Book of Allah and he is to govern among people by Allah's Book and he cannot deviate the slightest bit from it. Now it has been confirmed by the above and many other verses in the Qur'an that the messenger has received the Book of Allah as divine teaching. Now what is that teaching that the messenger is to pass on to people, through which they are admonished by him? The following verses identify this aspect, Allah commands the messaenger:
"We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My Promise." (50:45) Thus Allah commands the messenger to admonish people by the Qur'an, and the messenger confirms himself that his mission is
"Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches." (6:19)
Obedience to the messenger means obedience to the message of Allah, as the messenger is delivering the message of Allah to mankind and no other laws. It is only the law of Allah that people are asked to follow and be obedient to, says the Qur'an.
These issues were being dicussed in a thread called 'Guidelines to unifying the ummah', perhaps we could continue there? There are a lot of questions unanswered there which you might be able to address.
Camille! I haven't seen anything from you for a while, but you are still my hero! Jewels, I hope you have read Camille's post! Please resurrect yourself and comment.
Zara
people can we stop this talk so we don't make a new "firqa" here. that is what has led to the poor condition of islam in this world. be more objective. just tell people what u belive and i believe that if everyone is satisfied with his/her belief then don't bother them. can't u post any of the thousands of the verse that speaks about the "rahm" of allah, why don't u look to His mercy. His mercy is greater than His "qahar". do u agree? if u do then lets stop this topic right now.
Moon
[This message has been edited by YASIR NAWAZ (edited July 29, 1999).]