How about one and a quarter gods or -3 gods?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I was reading about fractional derivatives in which u do not only take first derivative or second derivative but also 1/2th 1/4th or negative derivative.

Let us apply same idea to gods. how about having one god and another 1/4 th of god, meaning he lacks full power of god but is 1/4th.

And satan can be defined as negative of god. Os if u have satan (-1 god) and god of equal power, it is almost like having zero gods.

I am surprised that these brilliant ideas did not strike anyone though people are thinking about gods from a thousand years or more.

P.S. Or maybe sqrt(2.) gods, since it is an irrational number and so is the concept of gods.

[This message has been edited by ullu (edited October 23, 2000).]

2

If we were to use Science to explain religion. Science will clearly define religion as bogus

and that all GODS including Allah and Hindu Gods are non-existent and fictional.

Have a good day,

Arai

3

Arai:
That’s what you think…
Take a look at this site: http://www.geocities.com/anwardotcom/islamicref.html

4

Arai, I do not know what ur religion is, but all I gotto know today is that how faith you have in your Gods.

Science will never be able to prove what you have stated because science only believes in mechanisms, but there has to be someone who operates the mechanisms of life.

5

Ver nice website Shakir Mian!!

6

Eventually science will come to realise the existence of "god"...or something htat is beyond fact and rational..science is just a long-cut

7

Science has DISPROVED everything religion claims.

Hence, why are Christians scattering all over the place to explain themselves?

That’s why they’ve made up their own Scentific version of Christianity called Creationism.

Even Christians are not well convinced of the theory of Evolution, and that is from SCIENCE, not from any BOOK.

Soon, other religions will scatter looking for scientific explanations, and then make up something that will fit with the technological world’s agenda.

Really, if you consider just living by the book. Do you think you really could survive WITHOUT Science? Without science, you wouldn’t even be on these PC’s to type these messages, I doubt any holy book would explain how transistors, and capacitors work and how to build your own burner

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

.

Arai

8

Shakir.

You have referred to me a site that is located on GEOCITIES.

Now, having my experience with sites located on GEOCITIES. They tend to show lack of professionalism and even content. Half the sites on GEOCITIES tend to be made up stories to convince non-believers, since we wouldn’t know how to read the Q’uran anyway to prove any fact stated on the site. This doesn’t go for Islam, but all religions, who whoever sends me to a site that has content on Geocities.

It’s like, arguing with a Theist about Science.

I’m sure, if this site you sent me to is revolutionary, and ground-breaking that it could have afford to had at least it’s own domain?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Arai

p.s. I am not trying to disprove what is on the site. What I am saying is, most people (most intelligent) people will know that taking information from a public server that could have information well tampered with, isn’t trustworthy. It is like saying, someone who claims to be an Internet Genius, uses AOL.

9

Arai, do you have any idea where science comes from???

Since the Greek philosophers of the Helenic Age, i.e. about 1000-2000 years before the intro of Islam, there was no such thing as Science. There were many renowned thinkers in that era, but since that age, Science had become a forgotten issue. There may have been sculptors and other artists in the Roman Empire, but no one working on Science. It was after 2000 years, i.e. after the advent of Islam, Muslim Scholars emerged on the world scene and did some extraordinary work on all walks of Science including Navigation.
Guess where did all this inspiration come from in the Arabs suddenly. It was Islam, Islam urged Men to read and write, study to learn. The Quran unlike anyother book in the world applies to all fields of life. From social affairs to scince and technology. If you dont believe me just visit this site http://www.geocities.com/anwardotcom/islamicref.html
And it was from these Arabs, the Europeans acquired knowledge. And you say that Science, which itself was triggered by Islam, is going to prove Islam wrong. Think again!!

10

Arai:
I agree with Dr Who. Muslims were very advanced in astronomy, medicine, navigations and other fields. In fact, modern day Algebraic formulae-that you studied in high school was invented by Arabs.
You are telling me Quran does not have information on transistors and things of that nature. I’m pretty sure you know what the Quran is. That it is not a scientific book. Rather it is a guideline for Muslims. However, it does contains scientific facts and statements made 1400 years ago that were proven true only recently.
You say that science will soon disprove the theory that God exists. This maybe true in other religions, not in Islam- which is the absolute truth. The technological and scientific advancement that humans have achieved is only proving Gods existence through the verses of the Holy Quran.
What’s wrong with Geocities sites? That is the most lame excuse I’ve ever seen. Just because these people do not have their own domain doesn’t mean that information is incorrect. What kind of logic is this? Don’t try to bluff your way through by saying information on these sites are insecure. Don’t tell me that crap, I work on internet servers.
You say this site is there to convert people to Islam. Listen man, nobody is trying to convert you to Islam. You are the one who brought up this whole Science and Religion topic.
Instead of providing lame excuses why don’t you actually come up with something that refutes the scientific facts in Quran,that is, if you can. You don’t trust people on Geocites huh? Here’s another site, and this one’s not on Geociteis. http://www.islamicity.org/Science/ISLAMSCI.HTM
I can’t wait till you come up with something stupid again. Face the Truth and accept it, if you have the courage.

[This message has been edited by Shakir75 (edited October 27, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Shakir75 (edited October 27, 2000).]

11

[quote]
Originally posted by Shakir75:
**
I can't wait till you come up with something stupid again. Face the Truth and accept it, if you have the courage.**
[/quote]

That was completely uncalled for. How do you expect people listen to you if you insult them? It just makes the other person more defensive. Don't do that please. It's not in any person's interest to do that because at the end of the day such remarks may at best achieve nothing and at worst, they damage your own credibilty and the religion you are speaking for.

They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

12

Arai:
What's up dude! Still waiting for your response.

13

My Partpoopper:
Thanks for your advice. Anyhow, I don't think I was insultive in any way. I am just trying to put my point across. I was not in any way intending on being harsh with Arai. If he has been insulted, my apologies.

14

Shakir75, Thank you kindly for such a civil response… People like you are very rare in forums like these.

As long as Arai reads this response and understands that you had no intention to insult anybody, then I guess that’s okay…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

They shoot partypoopers, don’t they?

15

Shakir75.

I've read your response. I will take your ethics and morals and respect them and not make a generalization for anyone else, people or religion that you are a part of. You have your right to opinion of course.

I can't disprove the Q'uran. Nor, am I trying to. What I am trying to say is, religion tends to scatter around in their books for explanations when they've convinced themselves of science. I am not saying the Q'uran doesn't provide scientific explanation. It just tends to be IRONIC that they find it in the Q'uran, after it's been invented by a scientist. But, I do know of is, the Q'uran, hasn't predicted any scientific fact BEFORE it was invented.

Hence,

One example.

Birth, yes. The Q'uran states it, but it's funny that it's only found AFTER it's been studied by scientists, (even scientists who are not muslim).

In addition. I've went the geocities website regretfully to read literature that claims to be fact. Only Science is fact not religion.

Now having said that. The verses and translations I read, are essentiallly 'beating around the bush' verses. I have mentioned this in a post before, but I will repeat it.

It seems fully to me that the translations were fit to apply to those assumptions.

In addition, all the verses are about one or two liners. You're telling me that the science of Birth, theory, process, development and production of birth can be summed up in a few lines? I am sure any intellligent man of that time would know that somehow by coincidence after engaging in sex, that the partner becomes pregnant and has children, and that in experience with other people, that it could roughly 9 months for departure from the mother's womb of the baby. Simple statements like that I've seen in the verses you provided me, but anyone with an intelligent mind can learn that from experience, and not from a book.

But, Does the Q'uran provide proof on Semen/Sperm, Eggs, Menstruation Cycles, Ovaries, Sperm survival, Sperm count, Reasons for Infertility, Twins/Double Births, Unbilical feeding, DNA Structure?. Etc?

You know, the science of Birth is more complicated than a simple, sperm meets the egg, the egg and sperm unite and grow in the womb for 9 months and out pops a baby. I'm sure if Allah wrote this, that he knew more about his creation and could explain this a little more on this, (not sure whether this is true in Islam), but there was a time when parents of twins were scrutinized for practicing Sorcery.

As for someone mentioning Algebra, or Al-Jibrah. Yes, I'm familiar with Al-Jibrah, afterall I wouldn't be an engineering student? In any case. Arabs, they did invent Al-Jibrah, but I'm not sure when this happened, but I am quite confident Algebra existed before Islam was created, but yes invented by an Arab nevertheless.

But, does the Q'uran talk about the ZERO? Yes, the Zero is the most important integer/non-integer than any character in mathematical language (in Al-Jibrah too), Hindu's invented the ZERO. So we can't accredit that to Arabs or Islam, but where does the Q'uran talk about the most important character in math? The symbol that essentially defines nothing, but defines after a number, or leading after decimal places?

Science. Not religion found this. It just happened to be HINDU people who found this, but in no way did they find this in their Gita.

Europe of all countries (this is controversial) most definitely contributed to the aid of Science, especially the greeks, Pythagoris, Aristole, Archimedes, Socrates (somewhat, in philosophical sense), even Aesop.

Now, if I bring Socrates for example. In Philosophy, it states specifically a mind can't be rational with irrational thoughts.

And Socrates being a very influential teacher, as well as Aristotles (although his theories are incorrect today) contributed to science without mentioning their Gods.

The MOST perfect example is Galileo.

His studies on orbits and planetary motion in the rennaisance disproved Christianity's idea that the SUN REVOLVED around the Earth, and in other works mentioned the ridiculous theories of theists.

You know what happened to Galileo? He was exiled, and from some theories was executed. But, of course theists don't want to look like murderes who murdered someone they feared was right.

Another funny point is.

Christianity, and other Abrhamical religions say "God created Adam and Eve, first humans on Earth".

When Science proves that the Big Bang created the Universe. Therefore, after the big bang it was an evolutionary process, so how did Adam and Eve become the first people? Earth, approximatelly 4.5 billion years old (carbon-dating), and modern Man is less than 40 million years old. What happened to (4.5 billion - 40 million) years? Was God still busy making his "wonderful" things?

So this is where Theists jump in to throw in Science a part of religion.

"God created the Big Bang", and evolution came at God's will. Therefore, now God should be given credit for that. But, what happened to Adam and Eve?

Think about it.

Arai

16

A Hindu, Christian, Muslim and Sikh are fishing together when the boat starts sinking. Fortunately shore is only 100 yards away.

The Sardarji quickly says a quick line of prayer to Waheguru, before jumping into the Sea. He is a poor swimmer but luckily the waves carry him to safety.

The Muslim remembers Allah and also swims out of the waters safely.

The Christian sings the praises of Christ and the son of God saves his life.

The Hindu watches his friends wave from shore.

It's time for a prayer he thinks

"Hey Ram tera bhakt sankat mai hai raksha karna" says the Hindu praying to the Lord Rama.

He is about to jump but decided to go for extra insurance.

"Krishna Kanahiya Murli wale, bhakt ko bacha le"

He hesitates ... Hanuman has flown over oceans let me pray to him too, "Hey Bajran Bali apne bhagat ka bacha le"

Hesitates again ... The lord Shiva never turn anyone down, "Jai Bhole Nath aaj bhakat ke raksha karna"

Why not pray to the Godess Kali while I'm at it he thinks, "Kali maa ... Apne bhagat ke rakhsa karna"

The Hindu leaps into the water full of confidence, but drowns on the spot.

The scene shifts to the gates of Heaven where the Hindu is on a indefinite hunger strike; his demands to meet God in person.

God meets with the man and asks him what the problem was.

Says the Hindu, "maine aap ko panch panch baar yaad kiya par aap ne mujh ko doobne diya, baki sab ko bacha liya"

(You saved the rest who only prayed to you once, I prayed to you 5 times and yet you let me die.)

God Explains, "dekho ...

"sardar ne waheguru ka naam liya tau maine Guru Gobind Singh ka roop dhar ke us ko ja bacchaya"

"Musalman ne Allah ka naam liya tau maine apna peigambar Mohammed ko bheja aur usko baccha liya"

"Christian ne Jesus ka naam liya to maine Jesus ke roop leke usko baccha liya."

God takes a deep breath
"tum ne pehle Ram ke naam liya ...
... dhanush baan leke aa he raha tha."

"Par tum ne phir Krishna ko yaad kiya, dhanush baan neeche rakha, aur murli utha lee."

"Mukut pehan raha tha ke tumne Hanuman ko yaad kiya, mukut utara, murli neeche rakhi, gadha uthaya."

"Poonch fit karke aa hee raha tha ke tum ne Shiv ka naam liya, poonch utari aur jooda baandh liya naag dhoond raha tha ke tum ne Devi ka naam liya."

"Abe sale jab toone challang mari to mein petticoat ka nala baand raha tha aur abhi to Sari baandhani thi."

"Ab tu hi bata tere ko main bina sari bandhane ke kaise bacha leita?"

17

I would love to understand the rest of that joke. But, unfortunately I’m not literate in reading Punjabi in Roman characters!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Is it possible for you to translate it, my English/Punjabi isn’t very good.

Arai

18

Arai

How can you prove Adam and Eve were not the first man and woman on earth.

Universe could have been created 10 billion years old rather than 4.5 billion, but still does not discount that Adam and Eve were put on earth afterwards. If God can create the Universe why can't He put a couple of humans on one of the remote planets.

Secondly.. the day Science proves what makes me think, what makes me alive, what breaths life in a new born I will consider your post again.

BZ

19

Black Zero.

So, you're suggesting that Man has been on Earth for 4.5 billion years?

Science says man was not on Earth, longer than 20 million years. Not just because they haven't found remains of Humans of that age. But, they haven't found any evidence of other life support remains that would keep humans in existent since then.

In addition, if man were on Earth for 4.5 billion years. How come, Allah came less than 2000 years ago to Muhammad to talk about religion and set path for people (and other Abrhamic religions, less than 10 thousand years)?

So, 4,500,000,000 years - 2,000 years = 4,499,998,000 years, people had NO guidance to Allah?

Wow, Allah disappeared for quite some time then! So Allah has been guilding muslims for about less than 1000 years, and sold out 4,499,998,000 years worth of people?!

What made him decide to show his mighty-self after billions of years?

Now, if people were on earth for 4.5 billion years, I would say we would be MUCH more evolved than we are now, even with modern science!

With that much time, we would have found enough scientific formulae to create God(s), and perhaps even take inter-planetary trips to see God(s).

Humans on Earth for 4.5 billion years? This would also mean, that Man existed BEFORE DINOSAURS? I don't recall anywhere in any religious book mentioning Dinosaurs, and how man should treat or be treated by them in that respect. And you can't say dinosaurs didn't exist.

In addition, I don't recall in any biblical/q'uranic translation, of the mentioning of dinosaurs or large creatures in which Adam and Even enjoyed Earth with, did you ?

Arai

20

Quote from Arai:
"In addition, all the verses are about one or two liners. You're telling me that the science of Birth, theory, process, development and production of birth can be summed up in a few lines? I am sure any intellligent man of that time would know that somehow by coincidence after engaging in sex, that the partner becomes pregnant and has children, and that in experience with other people, that it could roughly 9 months for departure from the mother's womb of the baby. Simple statements like that I've seen in the verses you provided me, but anyone with an intelligent mind can learn that from experience, and not from a book.
But, Does the Q'uran provide proof on Semen/Sperm, Eggs, Menstruation Cycles, Ovaries, Sperm survival, Sperm count, Reasons for Infertility, Twins/Double Births, Unbilical feeding, DNA Structure?. Etc?"

Arai: The Quran actually tells us the different stages that the human embryo goes through. "He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness." This statement is from Sura 39:6.
"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."
This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop").

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."
This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech. As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.
"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."
This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh. The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.
"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."
This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.
"Then We developed out of it another creature."
This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.
"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."
This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.
"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.
"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."
This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.
The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

Arai, keep in mind that Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterte. For him to posess such scientific information is out of the queation. Also we are talking about 1400 years ago when there was no medical science. If people had knowledge of medical science it must have been very crude and primitive. How can a man 1400 years ago have this information to such detail?
You were saying that the Quran does not have information about semen/sperm, eggs, menstruation cycles, ovaries, sperm survival, sperm count, reasons for infertility, twins/double births, unbilical feeding, DNA structure, etc? Well like I said the Holy Quran is not a Scientific book. It does contains some scientic facts that are correct. The reason for this is to prove it's validity and authenticity.

[21:30] ...And We made every living thing from water...
[24:45] And Allah has created every animal from water...
Modern scientific theory on the origin of life was not firmly established up until the last two or three centuries. Prior to that, the predominant theory on the origin of life was based on a concept called "spontaneous generation" where living creatures literally popped out of inanimate matter spontaneously and continuously. This view was discredited with the work of many Renaissance scientists including Harvey and Redi, and in the 1850's, Louis Pasteur's research on bacteriology sealed the coffin on this theory. Starting with the work of Huxley up to the present day, an alternative theory has been proposed where life is understood to have emerged from a long, increasingly complex chain of chemical reactions. These reactions are believed to have begun in the depths of the oceans because the atmosphere was not sufficiently developed to protect living organisms from ultraviolet radiation:
"...it is believed that early forms of life developed in oceans or pools...It has been suggested that the colonization of land, about 425,000,000 years ago, was possible only because enough ozone was then produced to shield the surface from ultraviolet light for the first time." [20]
This idea of life originating in the oceans is strongly supported by the two Qur'anic verses quoted above.
What do you have to say to this, Arai?

Quote from Arai:
"So, 4,500,000,000 years - 2,000 years = 4,499,998,000 years, people had NO guidance to Allah?
Wow, Allah disappeared for quite some time then! So Allah has been guilding muslims for about less than 1000 years, and sold out 4,499,998,000 years worth of people?!
What made him decide to show his mighty-self after billions of years?
Now, if people were on earth for 4.5 billion years, I would say we would be MUCH more evolved than we are now, even with modern science!"
Let me tell you something. Allah has sent us 124,000 messengers throughout time. This I quote from the Quran. So your argument about God keeping us in the dark for 4,499,998,000 years does not hit home base.

Quote from Arai:
"When Science proves that the Big Bang created the Universe. Therefore, after the big bang it was an evolutionary process, so how did Adam and Eve become the first people? Earth, approximatelly 4.5 billion years old (carbon-dating), and modern Man is less than 40 million years old. What happened to (4.5 billion - 40 million) years? Was God still busy making his "wonderful" things?"
Arai, whoever said that God made human beings as soon as Earth was created? The Quran doesn't say that. I don't understand what your point is.

Arai said:
"Now, if people were on earth for 4.5 billion years, I would say we would be MUCH more evolved than we are now, even with modern science!
With that much time, we would have found enough scientific formulae to create God(s), and perhaps even take inter-planetary trips to see God(s)."

Take a look at our history. Human beings have only truly advanced in the last 100 years. Most scientific inventions and discoveries were made during this time. It seems as if technology was at a standstill all these centuries. By the way, neither BlackZero nor I suggested that humans have been around for 4.5 billion years. Read the posts carefully.