Honour killing and FGM

Asalaam u alaikum, hello, to all,

I did not know whether a topic so explicit should be posted, but it is a problem, and you can only run away from the problem for so long.
I did some recent study on women in Pakistan, and how they are treated. I was very hurt, shocked, worried, and a whole lot of emotions when I read about honour killings (not that I didn’t know about them from before) and also a thing called FGM (Female Genital mutilation). I appologize for using such graphic language, but thats the only way it can be described. WHAT ABOUT THE

The following is an article from the site http://www.webspawner.com/users/jordanwomen/
I must say, the site is probably Indian, or from some anti Islamic group, because it is denouncing the Quran instead of the people who are hiding behind religion to do such brutal acts. Here is the article, it is very very very sad.

WOMEN OF PAKISTAN - WHAT OF THEIR FATE?

In Pakistan, a woman does not need to have been raped to suffer at the hands of her male lords and masters. Investigations carried out in Pakistan by Amnesty International indicate that many women are regarded as chattels - mere commodities - by males, even within their own families. With no dignity or rights, they are viewed as less than human beings and considered to be the “property” of the male members of their families.

As I type this, somewhere in Pakistan, to mention only one of the many countries where this crime is being perpetrated, some girl or young women is being harassed, enslaved, tortured or killed by a male member of her own family ! Every year, in Pakistan, hundreds of its female members of society are murdered by their families’ menfolk, all in the name of “Honour Killing”. Many more are being tortured daily, some simply for having been born beautiful !

A woman in Pakistan does not need to have been promiscuous to qualify for such brutality. There has been a case where a husband merely saw his wife having sex with another man - in his DREAMS ! Although it was all in his imagination, he believed that he had the right to kill his totally innocent wife.
The court “rationalised” the repeated stabbing to death by declaring that - “The wife must have done something unusually bad to enrage the husband to that extent.” The killer believed that he would be acquitted - and he was ! What is the United Nations doing about such crimes ? While there is much criticism of my own country about “Mandatory Sentencing”, nothing is being done to liberate these women victims of male aggression.

Some women in Pakistan, are thought to qualify for such brutal treatment from the male members of their family (father, brother, uncle, cousin) for having graceful physique, feminine bodily movements, daring to challenge or correct a statement made by a male, even if the male is incorrect ! A female must never teach a male or make him “lose face”. A female must never “answer back”. Even failing to serve the meal at the exact time the male demands it, could result in the death sentence within her own family.

For the males, there is no punishment from the courts and the killer males take full advantage of that. A woman may suffer daily beatings, be thrown down the stairs when heavily pregnant, and tortured in many other ways, but even to suggest that she should be granted a divorce, could mean the death sentence at the hands of her father, brother or some other male relative. All this is to preserve the “Honour” and “Dignity” of the family ! On the other hand, it is an easy matter for a husband to divorce his wife, even if she is a totally innocent party to the dispute.

For men, there is no sentence of punishment or imprisonment for illicit sexual relationships but for women , even a false rumour can be fatal.

One might imagine that a race of people with such hi-tech knowledge sufficient to develop nuclear capability might be educated also in ethical matters. Tragically, this is not the case. Amnesty International has on record that, in 1998, in the state of Punjab alone, 286 women died at the hands of male members of their own families, all in the name of “Family Honour”. This does not take into account the thousands of innocent girls and women who daily are raped, beaten and tortured by their husbands.

We demand that Pakistan and other nations with a similar problem, make domestic violence a criminal offence . We also demand that the Islamic Mullahs, who play such an important role in society, teach their people that the Koran does not justify such male chauvinism and barbarity.

Similarly, “Honour Killing” , also of innocent rape victims, is bringing dishonour to Islam itself, and, more particularly, the Name of ALLAH .

If you wish to read about FGM, here is a site which answers many questions. www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/services/healthy_living/pdf/mutilation2.PDF
NOTE: There is graphic information, not for the weak hearted.

It is very depressing to know that such atrocities happen to people, and nothing is done about them. This has opened my eyes to womens problems in Pakistan, and I would like to help in any way possible. Does any one know how?

Where have you been Sana jee. This has been going on since ages in mostly muslim countries but there some African countries influenced by Islam that have this practice too.

In Gup Shup(supposed the intelligentia) you will get three types of responses:

  1. It happens even in India. So many women are burned for lack of dowry. etc. That gives it legitimacy and acceptability

  2. You will be quoted versed from Koran Shareef and Hadiths, with some long winded justification and excused.

  3. You will be told, not to worry. Its very limited to a few cases in the undeducated. Look in the developed countries how women are treated as COMPARED to men.

The whole idea that the face and body of a women should be kept under wrap because MEN cant control them selves is the most repugnent idea ever. and its considered OK by the male dominated establishment. Then of course the Sharia laws regarding rape, infidelity, premaritl sex etc are classic, biased in favor of men. And we call ourselves advanced and the best in the world !!!!!

Jinhe naaz hai Islam pe vo kahaan hain!!!

[This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited January 31, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Tanhaa:
**
The whole idea that the face and body of a women should be kept under wrap because MEN cant control them selves is the most repugnent idea ever. and its considered OK by the male dominated establishment. Then of course the Sharia laws regarding rape, infidelity, premaritl sex etc are classic, biased in favor of men. And we call ourselves advanced and the best in the world !!!!!

Jinhe naaz hai Islam pe vo kahaan hain!!!
**
[/quote]

Tanha,

The comments are wrong, if the cause of problem was "SHRIAH" then more atrocities should have commited during the days of HOLY PROPHET (PBUH), But fact is, it is opposite. The SHRIAH and QURAN and HADITH was correct and provided equal right to both men and women as it did 14000 years ago.

Now this what I think problem is and my answer, In relation to muslim world, the SHIRAH is mis-interpreted by our clerics, mualna's etc. Secondaly we have SOCIAL & ECNOMICAL PROBLEMS and ILLITARACY.

This is reason , that you will not find any of above crimes in educated, moderate and well off muslim famlies.

If we can take even one element out, I bet the rate at which above crime happen will go down. Improve the literacy and Economic situation.

Sania Saeed,

Yes, Pakistanis are aware of the crimes happened in the name of "Honor Killing". It is unfortunate that we claim the WE (muslim) are best and still we commit such a horrible crime to weak of the soceity (women). The only solution (for time being) is to provide shelters for womens so that at least they have some place to go.

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited January 31, 2002).]

Have a look at the rest of the site. here are some of the titles to articles which are being promoted there:

INDIA - LEARN ITS NATIONAL LANGAGE, HINDI, ON LINE
INDIA - STUDY ITS LIBERAL CONSTITUTION
INDIA - ITS NUCLEAR POSITION - The Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. Why didn't India sign?
INDIA - ITS NUCLEAR POSITION EXPLAINED BY P.M.ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE
INDIA - DID NOT WANT TO GO DOWN THE NUCLEAR PATH
INDIA - FORCED TO GO NUCLEAR BECAUSE OF DESIGNS OF NEIGHBOURS
INDIA - FORCED BY THE WEST TO PRESERVE ITS OWN SECURITY
INDIA - WHAT THE MEDIA ARE REPORTING ON INDIA'S NUCLEAR TESTING
INDIA - THE RATIONALE OF INDIA GOING NUCLEAR.
INDIA - CHALLENGING NUCLEAR HEGEMONY - How the Big 5 Nuclear Powers have discriminated against India who seeks total nuclear disarmament
INDIA - INDIA'S RESERVATIONS ON THE CTBT
INDIA - HER NUCLEAR POLICY IS NO THREAT TO U.S.
INDIA - HER HIGH-TECH ROLE IN THE SUPER COMPUTERS
INDIA'S ACHIEVEMENTS IN BIOTECH AREAS
INDIA'S PROGRESS IN BUILDING A STRONG ECONOMY
INDIA'S LIBERAL CONSTITUTION
INDIA'S POWER GENERATION SOURCES
INDIA'S AMAZING DEVELOPMENT OF ITS DAIRYING INDUSTRY
INDIA'S WONDER TREE - THE NEEM
INDIA'S PROGRESS IN FOOD PRODUCTION AND TECHNOLOGY
OUR HINDI LANGUAGE - LEARN INDIA'S NATIONAL LANGUAGE ON LINE

This is obviously an Indian hate site and most of the crap written in the piece above can be taken apart without much effort. i suggest that if we want to discuss this subject in a serious manner, then this thread be removed and someone open a sensible version.

Just as I expected. Its all because of India. so Lets shoot the messenger(web site) who brought the information. So starting a new discussion on the same subject will be better!!!! wah wah kya logic hai !!!

I understand Insaaniat bhai. aap sahi keh rahe hain. Phir bhee , how does one judge a religious concept?

By what the Holy book says, or by the people who practice it?? soochne ki baat hai??

The reason i asked for the topic to be brought up in a neutral thread is so that it can be discussed properly as it is a serious issue. If it is going to be presented with an agenda, then it will invite similar replies.

We can do it either way though, no problem. It's true that the psychosis of the region need to be examined.

Tanhaa:

[quote]
I understand Insaaniat bhai. aap sahi keh rahe hain. Phir bhee , how does one judge a religious concept?
By what the Holy book says, or by the people who practice it?? soochne ki baat hai??
[/quote]

heheh. Don't say I didn't warn you!

I think religous faith of guppie be verified before statements from them are entertained.

Although there can be dissident muslim not comprehending his own religion but more often it is a case of non muslim not having any theological education at all but propaganda material of anti muslim anti islam & anti pakistan.

“”"The whole idea that the face and body of a women should be kept under wrap because MEN cant control them selves is the most repugnent idea ever. and its considered OK by the male dominated establishment. Then of course the Sharia laws regarding rape, infidelity, premaritl sex etc are classic, biased in favor of men. And we call ourselves advanced and the best in the world !!!

Jinhe naaz hai Islam pe vo kahaan hain!!!“”

Tanha

wrong sahir song quote & misisunderstanding galore

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ahaa.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

SUCH STATEMENTS CAN NEVER COME FROM A PERSON BORN IN MUSLIM FAMILY .

Why ? Because no matter what the present practice of muslim at the present stage be …we all know the importance & history of purdah.NOT as a dark period in history of islam nor are we ashamed of our purdah system but proud as pea cock to have given it to hindu of india particularly in the region where moghul influence was most.

Dont get me wrong ,even in western country there were practices of covering of women if you see the pic of victorian age women.And yes in country like u.s. total purdah is impractical ,& not practiced by any .Yet just like our ancient heritage never was unjustified ,unreasonable or barbaric ,they are nothing to be ashamed of NOR ARE WE SO SMART JUST BY DISPARAGING & DERIDING THem wth our stiff upper lip

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/disgust.gif


Diamonds Are Made Under Pressure

Tanhaa

no doubt these things happen in both Pakistan and India - much more so in India just cause of its size (may be not in % terms). And its not only a muslim phenomenon despite your attempt to potray it that way. Also despite your three resons as to why guppies find it legitimate practice, (and none to say that people find it unacceptable) all the posts that follow show that most guppies DO NOT accept this practice so I am not sure where you are digging up these conclusions from.

I have been on this forum for quite a while and I can tell you during that time I have seen several cases of people helping out others when women have had problems both in the east and the west. So your assertion that things like that are let of easily is completely incorrect. If you want to dig further I suggest you do some searches in the family section.

Then of course the Sharia laws regarding rape, infidelity, premaritl sex etc are classic, biased in favor of men. And we call ourselves advanced and the best in the world !!!

Hmmm what laws are we talking about? adultry is punishable by death (for both parties not just the woman).

Some of the things you say reminds me of people just hand waving cause they have no idea of what they are talking about (and no doubt we have all done that) however its not sufficient to proove things.

**Where have you been Sana jee. This has been going on since ages in mostly muslim countries but there some African countries influenced by Islam that have this practice too.
In Gup Shup(supposed the intelligentia) you will get three types of responses:

  1. It happens even in India. So many women are burned for lack of dowry. etc. That gives it legitimacy and acceptability

  2. You will be quoted versed from Koran Shareef and Hadiths, with some long winded justification and excused.

  3. You will be told, not to worry. Its very limited to a few cases in the undeducated. Look in the developed countries how women are treated as COMPARED to men.

The whole idea that the face and body of a women should be kept under wrap because MEN cant control them selves is the most repugnent idea ever. and its considered OK by the male dominated establishment. Then of course the Sharia laws regarding rape, infidelity, premaritl sex etc are classic, biased in favor of men. And we call ourselves advanced and the best in the world !!!!!

Jinhe naaz hai Islam pe vo kahaan hain!!!
**

[quote]
Originally posted by Tanhaa:
Where have you been Sana jee. This has been going on since ages in mostly muslim countries but there some African countries influenced by Islam that have this practice too. )
[/quote]

I think you have the thing turned around. I believe that this practice comes from African cultures that influenced some muslim groups. There is a great deal of serious sociological and anthropologocal literature on the question.

[quote]
*In Gup Shup(supposed the intelligentia) you will get three types of responses: *
[/quote]

What gave you the idea that Gupshup represents the intelligentia? We have a variety of opinions, all very different... it's just a place where you have a chance to discuss with a variety of people. I would not presume to think that I am more intelligent than you, but we all have our opinions and you have to convince me with logical, respectful arguments.

Please don't generalise, otherwise you are just as guilty of those you are criticising.

**
[quote]

  1. It happens even in India. So many women are burned for lack of dowry. etc. That gives it legitimacy and acceptability ** [/quote]

It happens everywhere, but less in some places and more in others. As far as I am concerned, that only shows that the whole world has to work on solving the problem and it's useless to blame or feel superior. That will not solve anything.

**

[quote]

  1. You will be quoted versed from Koran Shareef and Hadiths, with some long winded justification and excused. ** [/quote]

As far as I'm concerned a learned and true muslim cannot excuse this. Again, all religions have members who use the sacred texts to justify their misdeeds, but I guess that is why we have to learn to think, not just follow what some scholar dictates. Being a religious person is far more difficult than learning a set of rules and following them. It requires thinking and reasoning constantly, just like all other aspects of life.

**

[quote]

  1. You will be told, not to worry. Its very limited to a few cases in the undeducated. Look in the developed countries how women are treated as COMPARED to men. ** [/quote]

And how are women treated in developed countries???? again, can you generalise?

Anyway, WHO says this? While I am sure that it IS more prevalent among poor, uneducated and underprivileged people, that is no reason to shut your eyes and dream it away. Also, it DOES happen in other parts of society, in other countries, in all religions and in all periods of time.

**
[quote]

The whole idea that the face and body of a women should be kept under wrap because MEN cant control them selves is the most repugnent idea ever. and its considered OK by the male dominated establishment. Then of course the Sharia laws regarding rape, infidelity, premaritl sex etc are classic, biased in favor of men. And we call ourselves advanced and the best in the world !!!!!
**
[/quote]

I agree that the onus for men's behaviour should not be placed on women but on the men themselves. I think there is a lot of nonsense that is still widespread about how women tempt men - that started with Adam and Eve, no?

I think that if the discussion is to be a religious one you should take it to the religion forum, because you will find people better equipped to deal with these issues from a religious point of view. I am not a religious expert but my understanding of Islam and Islamic law is a bit different. And I know that there is no single opinion but several different schools of thought.

Actually I think the problem is not a religious one. Religion is the excuse we give ourselves, and because people are so ignorant about it that allow themselved to be hoodwinked.

All over the world laws have been historically biased on favour of the powerful and rich. Usually these are men. These are not God's laws. And they are interpreted also by men....

As far as I know there are many rules that regulate the behaviour of men. Unfortunately these are often applied by men who have an interest in the outcome of the case so they are not good judges.
**
[quote]

Jinhe naaz hai Islam pe vo kahaan hain!!!
**
[/quote]

Hmmmmm. I hope you are studying law. Then you can also find out about Islamic law and help those unfortunate people who are victims of it. We need enlightened and unbiased people in important positions.

[This message has been edited by Shirin (edited February 01, 2002).]

Thanks for you response Shirin behan. I completely agree with your ideas and point of view. I stand corrected that the practice of FGM is the influence of African culture on Islam , and not the other way around.

Fatima jee, You have every right to love the purdah system and other forms of feminine behaviour modification in your personal life.

However I hope you are not advocating and defending the compulsion of these practices by force on women in our society.

Similarly, Please allow me to have a different point of view. We will go a long way as a society, if we can tolerate difference's of opinion. When you said

[quote]

I think religous faith of guppie be verified before statements from them are entertained )
[/quote]

You were in a manner of speaking saying that the authorities should control as to who is allowed say what? Not very tolerant of other's ideas !!! I respect your right to have such ideas, but if you are in a position of power, I hope you dont enforce them.

[This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited February 01, 2002).]

Looking other way OR calling a crime a anti-muslim or anti-islam or anti-pakistan propaganda is not going to help any muslim or islam. The "Honor" killing is still happening in many parts of Pakistan and Muslim world. Before we tackle our problems, we must recongise them do not brush them under the carpet, hoping everthing will workout.

[This message has been edited by Insaaniat (edited February 01, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by Tanhaa:
**Fatima jee, You have every right to love the purdah system and other forms of feminine behaviour modification in your personal life.

However I hope you are not advocating and defending the compulsion of these practices by force on women in our society.

Similarly, Please allow me to have a different point of view. We will go a long way as a society, if we can tolerate difference's of opinion. When you said

You were in a manner of speaking saying that the authorities should control as to who is allowed say what? Not very tolerant of other's ideas !!! I respect your right to have such ideas, but if you are in a position of power, I hope you dont enforce them.

[This message has been edited by Tanhaa (edited February 01, 2002).]**
[/quote]

Tanha Bhai
You listen to opions in matters of movies ,music,clothes fashion,for serious religious directives tyou have to belong to one school of thaught or other which is not as many as number of peoples but collected sects ,schism that you find in islam...shia sunni .aga khani ..hanafi maliki shaafi wahabi etc.etc.you have to choose only one of say dozen of options .
I have certain given facts ,which may not be available to you otherwise you would not have mentioned "FORCE"

I hope you believe sincerely that any body identifying himself even in Muslim country like Pakistan ,Iran is not doing under "DURESS"

Not only the fact that koran says "there is no compulsion in religion"HOW DO YOU THINK PL. CAN ENFORCE ISLAM BY FORCE WHEN LAST SLAVE WAS EMANCIPATED IN USA HUNDRED YEARS AGO.
That is not to say that a muslim parent do not have right to bring there children which ever way ,within accepted norms ,they want.Like in everything after 21 you can drink legally ,drive at 18 in some states ,still BEFORE THOSE AGE CHILDREN ARE TAUGHT ACCORDING TO PARENTS WISH.If you think that is force ,then courts in america do not consider that b/c children do not have that freedom to refuse independently before they are independent.
If anything was forced ,normal psychology would determine that it will be dropped naturally. Hence in country like U.S. even india with majority being non muslim,only way muslim are doing there religous practice b/c they either have been taught that or they have themselves self rearched islamic practice themselves.Before you think hijab or dupatta or scarf or chador is considered force tell me those nuns in convent schools & missionery hospitals WHY DONT YOU ACCUSE THEM OF BEING FORCED BY POPE TO DO THAT ?
I am not saying what i say is right .Or i am pure muslim .Even given the pollution with geograhy & long time of 1500 yrs islam doesnt look the same world over .But that is not the reason to abolish everything totally .Yes there is this in bohra & that in khoja but you cant make a new religion by taking the easy part of all .That ios selfish & cop out.

[This message has been edited by Fatimah (edited February 01, 2002).]

dp agrees with Fatimah and Insaaniat, it has alot to with education, in muslim countries alot of moulwies aren't eductad properly. And they teach the kids who come at their place to learn somme wrong stuff. So it s got alot 2 do with proper education

it's all really sad, but stuff like that surely doesn't happen in pakistan? i was there just a few yrs ago, and although my cousins there are rather religous, none of this stuff happened, and i also didnt hear of anything like this happening either..
and what the heck is all that about 'ISLAM AND ITS CRUEL AND DISCRIMINATORY ATTITUDE TOWARDS WOMEN' just 1 of the many links at that site, what a load of donkey crap..