Honestly Now...

We all agreed that killing innocent people in the name of religion is wrong. And so what do you people think about killing innocents in the name of freedom or justice or what other interesting excuse have you?

I really would like some input. Of how the deaths of hundreds are ignored in some places, and how a lot of importance is given to the deaths of others - in mayhap a different nation.

Isnt that to say some lives seem to be worth more in the eyes of the world than others?

How can a person say that Iraqis are being killed in the name of freedom , therefore its aright? I am having trouble understanding this concept. It would be helpful if somebody could maybe explain the logic behind it.

Re: Honestly Now...

What do you think of Iraqis blowing up their own people? Yesterday (again) a suicide bomber blew up a few dozen kids who were waitign for toys from a marine.

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There is no reasonable logic behind it. Don't bother wasting your time over it.

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Killing anyone to get any point across is just plain dumb. Its like if people on this forum decide to drop a bomb in Religion or World Affairs just to make everyone agree with them. People think that violence can actually change the way people think. It doesn't. It just shuts them up from opposing you, and that's what they're really trying to do anyway.

Killing Iraqis is wrong, but they're getting killed. By their own people as well, so lets not foget that tidbit.

Killing Pakistanis is wrong, but what is this shia-sunni violence you see? Again, muslims killing each other.

My simple point is this. You have the world around you and it exists. Yes, you can gripe about how this is wrong and how that is wrong. But how useful and pragmatic is that?

Really?

So what can you do to change things? You can work within your own community, and work to create better understanding and peace between muslims and non-muslims. As someone said in another thread, if you see someone at a party that is talking extreme in their langauge like "oh good, those people deserve to get bombed", then don't turn your face away as most poeple do - TALK to that person and try to use their own Islam that they're reasoning with. Tell them that in Islam, in the QURAN, it says not to kill people unless if one is in jang, and even then, women and children are to be protected. Defeating these people in good argument is really easy, especially when they don't know 1, 2, 3 about logic.

Now if you're really concerned about Iraqis, then become a reporter and go work over there to uncover the real story. Don't think other people aren't already doing it, though. People do care about muslims, otherwise you wouldn't have the Abu Gharaib- type stories.

Re: Honestly Now...

^Now that is a good answer!

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And yes, there are lots of people in the West who dismiss Iraqi deaths. But then there are also people in the East that dismiss western deaths from suicide bomber attacks.

BTW, the reason why these deaths are so easily dismissed is not because we Americans don't care about what is going on around us. You put an American inside Iraq, and they'll come back and tell you that its horrific whats going on there. American soldiers definitely admit to the fact that its almost a purposeless war they're fighting, but they have no choice but to fight.

The reason why these deaths are so easily dismissed is because its hard to imagine so many people dying, and so many attacks, because

  1. they're not shown on the media as much

  2. conceptualizing a sum total number is hard. I can tell you 100 people died this month, right? But how are you seeing that? You're seeing it as "lots of people died". But you can't conceptualize it. If I told you, lets go to a courtyard in your school, and put 100 people in it - the whole courtyard is filled. Now shoot all of them and the courtyard is filled with 100 corpses. Then you might get a better impression of what 100 deaths MEAN. But still, you can't feel the pain, since you dont know these people. So lets say that we took 100 people you KNOW, and name them all and you visualize they're all standing there, and then we shoot them, and there are 100 corpses of people you know and love in that courtyard. Now, we're getting closer to reality. But still you wont grasp what that MEANS.

You only grasp what it means when you see 100 people with your own eyes being gathered in a courtyard and shot to death.

It has to hit home, and for most people who are busy Americans, it just doesn't. Its the environment we live in. The average American comes home after doing overtime, barely eats something healthy, watches TV and chooses to watch Simpsons over watching the news, and goes to bed. We're not politically active anymore as we were half a century ago.

Re: Honestly Now…

you’re most likely right!

PCG — In the grand scheme of things - how is going to justify one death over another - ever going to make things right. I agree there are Muslims killing each other. And I say it is wrong. In Islam, no where does it say that taking the life of an innocent person is right.

What I am getting at is that some people will voice how cruel and wrong some deaths are - yet they say that other deaths are actually justified.

All human lives have an equal worth. So why doesnt it show?

When people badmouth Muslims, I speak up. When people say killing innocents in London is ok, I speak up. I have a very hard time keeping my opinions to myself. I rarely turn to the other direction when I hear stupid things being said around me.

Its not about becoming a reporter. Its not about uncovering stories in Iraq. Im asking a simple question.

Arent the deaths of any innocent people wrong. That it matters not “where” the innocent person is from. That in the end its just simply wrong?

What gets to me is that so many deaths get ignored, or are thrown under “death for freedom” when in the end its still a death of an innocent person!

I agree with you though, that some messed up idiots think violence and killing will get them to places. But that too has a root cause. Which people nicely ignore and start counter attacking instead.

Its almost as if in the Western media the deaths of their own people are glamorized. Its sick. True that one cant relate to other deaths unless its their own people etc. But come on. I mean a whole country is in shatters - and its stil lthe same bs about “freedom” . Isnt that just an excuse? Another excuse. Doesnt that fall in the same list of excuses such as “religion” .

Re: Honestly Now...

I am loosing the will to live. Fortunately I have my kiwi.

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PCG --- In the grand scheme of things - how is going to justify one death over another - ever going to make things right. I agree there are Muslims killing each other. And I say it is wrong. In Islam, no where does it say that taking the life of an innocent person is right.

Who's justifying anything? Just because some people take their time out to write against suicide bombers does not mean they are justifying Iraqi deaths over Non-Iraqi deaths (I would write white, but 9/11 deaths and London deaths, and Madrid deaths were not all of white people).

What I am getting at is that some people will voice how cruel and wrong some deaths are - yet they say that other deaths are actually justified.

Who says other deaths are justified? No one thinks that innocent deaths in Iraq are justified. People who agree with the War in Iraq opine that its necessary to remove the dictatorship and to establish some freedom in the country. Note: I'm not saying this is my opinion, I have other opinions on the war. But these same people will not say that Yes, its OK to drop a bomb on a village. Fact of the matter is, that no one really knows what is going on in those countries. Media in the east says one thing, and Media in the West says another, and according to some journalist that I met that was based in Iraq said that journalists are not allowed in certain areas of the country. So fact is, that what's going on in these countries is a total and utter mystery.

All human lives have an equal worth. So why doesnt it show?

Because not every human being thinks like a true muslim. Not even muslims themselves.

When people badmouth Muslims, I speak up. When people say killing innocents in London is ok, I speak up. I have a very hard time keeping my opinions to myself. I rarely turn to the other direction when I hear stupid things being said around me.

Good.

Its not about becoming a reporter. Its not about uncovering stories in Iraq. Im asking a simple question.

Simple questions that have various answers, because, again, no one knows the facts. That much you should have learned in history classes. The most powerful write history. What really happened, no one will ever know.

Arent the deaths of any innocent people wrong. That it matters not "where" the innocent person is from. That in the end its just simply wrong?

Isn't that what I've been quacking about this whole time?

What gets to me is that so many deaths get ignored, or are thrown under "death for freedom" when in the end its still a death of an innocent person!

I already explained to you why Americans don't value the death of an Iraqi. Its a matter of distance and conditioned indifference, and the lack to imagine what it means for someone to die when you don't know who that someone is. Its simple human psychology. And yes, this psychology is manipulated. Now the question is, what are you going to do? If you're going to sit here and ask questions on a BB board, then fine and great. But what will it accomplish other than that you can gripe a bit and get your feelings out? How did it help the Iraqi?

I agree with you though, that some messed up idiots think violence and killing will get them to places. But that too has a root cause. Which people nicely ignore and start counter attacking instead.

No one wants to admit the root cause because no one wants to think for themselves. You're living in an age of ignorance that is part of the age of information.

Re: Honestly Now...

who the fruit is kiwi?

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A demi god. Like me.

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PCG you moved up a notch on my 'sensible' guppies list- its invisible but what the heck. :p

(venting does help though. )