Homosexuality and Islam

There is an active thread in this forum about gays in Pakistan and I also opened a thread on similar topic a couple of weeks back in Life and Relationships forum. In both threads, some people tried to justified this act or “feeling” by saying that it’s all natural and there are some theories that propose that it’s genetic and biological and, therefore, being homosexual or heterosexual isn’t a choice WE make.

However, we all know that homosexuality is considered a sin in Islam and it’s haraam. So, if we suppose that those justifications are somewhat right and it IS all biological and genetic disorder/defect that leads one to be homosexual, then why would ALLAH categorize it as haraam?

Can someone throw some light on it please?

P.S. I don’t intend and mean to hurt anybody’s feelings here but only want to clear my mind up a bit.

Re: Homosexuality and Islam

i also had a question i read in a thread here that having feelings and envisioning about same sex is fine as long as u dont act upon it but what i have to say is that forget islam but logically speaking doesnt a thought or idea lead to an action? if u think about it=you do it??

can someone clarify this too please... thanx

Re: Homosexuality and Islam

Im not an expert but if you pick it apart and think about it:

Allah swt doesnt punish us for things we are born with and cannot help (K) like disfigurations, mental deficiencies, retardation, etc. These are not choices, they're the lives Allah swt has given us and are meant to deal with. Thats it.

We DO get punished for bad choices like eating pork, drinking alcohol, premarital sex, adultery, homosexuality, etc.

Thinking abt these things is different. All of us wonder if life would be different if we were allowed any and all of the above. However, acting upon those thoughts is what gets us into loads of trouble. So, where Allah has filled the world with temptations, he has also given us the power to walk away from them and NOT make bad choices.

Re: Homosexuality and Islam

Premise: Allah is benevolent and merciful. Allah is logical in his/her thinking.

Argument: Considering Allah has stated that Homosexuality is haraam. In the infinite wisdom that Allah does have, why would he create something that is supposedly natural and then punish people for it? Not only that he would say in the Quran that you will not be punished for what you are born like, yet according to our lore burned the city of homosexuals.

Defining homosexual: homosexual definition | Dictionary.com

It says pertaining to the same sex. More importantly thoughts related to the same sex in a sexual nature. So thoughts and actions are both defined as homosexual. Why do you think people come out of the closet? They have sexual thoughts and know they are gay but don’t act on it. They still consider themselves gay because of the thoughts.

Budy i didn see u again in the other thread?? i didn see u anywhere proving that doing something haram makes u a kaafir/ nonmuslim/ rejector instead of sinner. now tell me wat the heck u want? just the argument, uve been freakin asking again and again for the links that tell that it is natural and when more than 2 ppl posted em u dissapeared from that thread and started arguing here, grow up dude, specially when Islamic discussion is concerned grow up, u are asking the same questions that u asked in that thread and m gona answer m agian with the help of Allah but u didnt even answer one question in that thread, please grow up and dont act like the ppl who argue for their ego and just for the heck of it, its about Islam dude.

coming to ur first paragraph, B4 Allah burnt the city a messenger was sent their to convince em that dont continue this evil practice but they didnt listen to him and then the city was burnt, those ppl were told to submit their desires.

and now y Allah made something natural and then made it haram aswell and is gona punish for that. i dono are u seriously that dumb or just acting like one, did u ever read Quran and fiqh??

In surah Al-Nour Allah subhanawatala tells us to lower our gaze. now tell me if a guys sees a nice chick in bikini with all those nice curves, is it natural to get attracted towards her or its a choice? U might be perfect but ask all the guys, it is natural but u have to submit ur will to look at her and get attracted towards her and just lower ur gaze. now isnt this natural and haram at the same time my friend??

I dono wana say this kinda stuff here but have to cuz its about Islam. Everybody is told to shave the pubic hair, men and women, u r telling me that those hair are not natural??? but Allah tells u to cut em, and when u cut em he regrows em again, so basically he is telling u to do something that is against the natural stuff. kinda making sense for u or still ur ego is diverting u??

and i keep on stating that homosexuality is haram in Islam, 100% but yet it is natural, i kept on asking for a link and me and another guy gave links and u never returned to that thread and came here to give baseless arguments again. those guys are attracted towards guys, they have wet dreams for guys instead of girls, they are aroused by the guys instead of girls wat they can do is to stop mingeling with guys and stop thinking about guys but they will also have to suffer lowering their gaze when they see a hot guy just like we do when we see a chick.

And believe me, those wet dreams and attraction doesn make em Kaafirs. go back and read the old thread.

If u know a lil bit arabic, word Islam has many meanings, scholars just tell tht it means “peace” cuz of all the allegations of terrorism, but it also means “submition”, submition to Allah, submiting ur all natural and un-natural desires and cravings.

if u r still gona argue, m gona be back here and keep on answering with the help of Allah.

PS. Everything right said in this post is by Allah and everything wrong is by me.

Re: Homosexuality and Islam

i think much research needs to done to scientifically prove that sexuality is innate, genetic choice. here is a link that i think tackles the issues , addmittedly with a slant i tend to agree with. it is a matter of choice and it is published on site that provide therapy and help in controling the deviant impulse

Is There a "Gay Gene"?

Many laymen now believe that homosexuality is part of who a person really is * from the moment of conception.

The "genetic and unchangeable" theory has been actively promoted by gay activists and the popular media. Is homosexuality really an inborn and normal variant of human nature?

No. There is no evidence that shows that homosexuality is simply "genetic." And none of the research claims there is.Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.

How The Public Was Misled

In July of 1993, the prestigious research journal *Science *published a study by Dean Hamer which claims that there might be a gene for homosexuality. Research seemed to be on the verge of proving that homosexuality is innate, genetic and therefore unchangeablea normal variant of human nature.

Soon afterward, National Public Radio trumpeted those findings. Newsweek ran the cover story, "Gay Gene?" The Wall Street Journal announced,"Research Points Toward a Gay Gene...Normal Variation."

Of course, certain necessary qualifiers were added within those news stories. But only an expert knew what those qualifiers meant. The vast majority of readers were urged to believe that homosexuals had been proven to be "born that way."

In order to grasp what is *really *going on, one needs to understand some littleknown facts about behavioral genetics.

Gene Linkage Studies

Dean Hamer and his colleagues had performed a common type of behavioral genetics investigation called the "linkage study." Researchers identify a behavioral trait that runs in a family, and then: a) look for a chromosomal variant in the genetic material of that family, and

b) determine whether that variant is more frequent in family members who share the particular trait.
To the layman, the "correlation" of a genetic structure with a behavioral trait means that trait "is genetic"-in other words, inherited.

In fact, it means absolutely nothing of the sort, and it should be emphasized that there is virtually no human trait without innumerable such correlations.

Scientists Know the Truth about "Gay Gene" Research

But before we consider the specifics, here is what serious scientists think about recent genetics-of-behavior research. From Science, 1994: Time and time again, scientists have claimed that particular genes or chromosomal regions are associated with behavioral traits, only to withdraw their findings when they were not replicated. "Unfortunately," says Yale's [Dr. Joel] Gelernter, "it's hard to come up with many" findings linking specific genes to complex human behaviors that have been replicated. "...All were announced with great fanfare; all were greeted unskeptically in the popular press; all are now in disrepute."{1}Homosexual Twin Studies

Two American activists recently published studies showing that if one of a pair of identical twins is homosexual, the other member of the pair will be, too, in just under 50% of the cases. On this basis, they claim that "homosexuality is genetic."

But two other genetic researchers--one heads one of the largest genetics departments in the country, the other is at Harvard--comment: While the authors interpreted their findings as evidence for a genetic basis for homosexuality, we think that the data in fact provide strong evidence for the influence of the environment.{2}The author of the lead article on genes and behavior in a special issue of Science speaks of the renewed scientific recognition of the importance of environment. He notes the growing understanding that: ... the interaction of genes and environment is much more complicated than the simple "violence genes" and intelligence genes" touted in the popular press.The same data that show the effects of genes, also point to the enormous influence of nongenetic factors.{3}More Modest Claims to the Scientific Community

Researchers' public statements to the press are often grand and far-reaching. But when answering the scientific community, they speak much more cautiously.

"Gay gene" researcher Dean Hamer was asked by Scientific American *if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology. He replied: "Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is **not inherited*. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors."{4}But in qualifying their findings, researchers often use language that will surely evade general understanding making statements that will continue to be avoided by the popular press, such as: ...the question of the appropriate significance level to apply to a nonMendelian trait such as sexual orientation is problematic.{5}Sounds too complex to bother translating? This is actually a very important statement. In layman's terms, this means:

It is not possible *to know what the findings mean--*if anything--since sexual orientation cannot possibly be inherited in the direct way eyecolor is.

Thus, to their fellow scientists, the researchers have been honestly acknowledging the limitations of their research. However, the media doesn't understand that message. Columnist Ann Landers, for example, tells her readers that "homosexuals are born, not made." The media offers partial truths because the scientific realityis simply too unexciting to make the evening news; too complex for mass consumption; and furthermore, not fully and accurately understood by reporters.

Accurate Reporting Will Never Come in "Sound Bites"

There are no "lite," soundbite versions of behavioral genetics that are not fundamentally in error in one way or another.

Nonetheless, if one grasps at least some of the basics, in simple form, it will be possible to see exactly why the current research into homosexuality means so littleand will continue to mean little, even should the quality of the research methods improveso long as it remains driven by political, rather than scientific objectives.

Understanding the Theory

There are only two major principles that need to be carefully understood in order to see through the distortions of the recent research. They are as follows: 1. Heritable does not mean inherited.

2. Genetics research which is truly meaningful will identify, and then focus on, only traits that are directly inherited.
Almost every human characteristic is in significant measure heritable. But few human behavioral traits are directly inherited, in the manner of height, for example, or eye color. Inherited means "directly determined by genes," with little or no way of preventing or modifying the trait through a change in the environment.

How to "Prove" That Basketball-Players are Born that Way

Suppose you are motivated to demonstratefor political reasons--that there is a basketball gene that makespeople grow up to be basketball players. You would use the same methods that have been used with homosexuality: (1) twin studies; (2) brain dissections; (3) gene "linkage" studies.

The basic idea in twin studies is to show that the more genetically similar two people are, the more likely it is that they will share the trait you are studying.

So you identify groups of twins in which *at least one *is a basketball player. You will probably find that if one identical twin is a basketball player, his twin brother is *statistically more likely *be one, too. You would need to create groups of different kinds of pairs to make further comparisons--one set of identical twin pairs, one set of nonidentical twin pairs, one set of sibling pairs, etc.

Using the "concordance rate" (the percentage of pairs in which *both *twins are basketball players, or *both *are not), you would calculate a "heritability" rate. The concordance rate would be quite high--just as in the concordance rate for homosexuality.

Then, you announce to the reporter from Sports Illustrated: "Our research demonstrates that basketball playing is strongly heritable." (And you would be right. It would be "heritable"--but not directly inherited. Few readers would be aware of the distinction, however.)

Soon after, the article appears. It says: "...New research shows that basketball playing is probably inherited. Basketball players are apparently 'born that way!' A number of outside researchers examined the work and found it substantially accurate and wellperformed..." But no one *(other than the serious scientist) *notices the media's inaccurate reporting.

What All Neuroscientists Know:
The Brain *Changes *with Use

Then you move on to conduct some brain research. As in the well-known LeVay brain study which measured parts of the hypothalamus, your colleagues perform a series of autopsies on the brains of some dead people who, they have reason to believe, were basketball players.

Next, they do the same with a group of dead nonbasketball players. Your colleagues report that, on average, "Certain parts of the brain long thought to be involved with basketball playing are much larger in the group of basketball players."

A few national newspapers pick up on the story and editorialize, "Clearly, basketball playing is not a choice. Not only does basketball playing run in families, but even these people's brains are different."

You, of course, as a scientist, are well aware that the brain changes with use...indeed quite dramatically. Those parts responsible for an activity get larger over time, and there are specific parts of the brain that are more utilized in basketball playing.

Now, as a scientist, you will not **lie *about this fact, *if asked (since you will not be), but neither will you go out of your way to offer the truth. The truth, after all, would put an end to the worldwide media blitz accompanying the announcement of your findings.

** Gene Linkage Studies:
"Associated With" Does Not Mean "Caused By"**

Now, for the last phase, you find a small number of families of basketball players and compare them to some families of nonplayers. You have a hunch that of the innumerable genes likely to be associated with basketball playing (those for height, athleticism, and quick reflexes, for example), some will be located on the x-chromosome.

You won't say these genes cause basketball playing because such a claim would be scientifically insupportable, but the public thinks "caused by" and "associated with" are synonymous.

After a few false starts, sure enough, you find what you are looking for: among the basketball-playing families, one particular cluster of genes is found more commonly.

With a Little Help from the Media

Now, it happens that you have some sympathizers at National People's Radio, and they were long ago quietly informed of your research. They want people to come around to certain beliefs, too. So, as soon as your work hits the press, they are on the air: "Researchers are hot on the trail of the Basketball Gene. In an article to be published tomorrow in Sports Science..."

Commentators pontificate about the enormous public-policy implications of this superb piece of science. Two weeks later, there it is again, on the cover of the major national newsweekly: "Basketball Gene?"

Now what is wrong with this scenario? It is simple: of course basketball playing is associated with certain genes; of course it is heritable. But it is those intermediate physiological traitsmuscle strength, speed, agility, reflex speed, height, etc.-which are themselves directly inherited. Those are the traits that make it likely one will be able *to, and will *want to, play basketball.

In the case of homosexuality, the inherited traits that are more common among male homosexuals might include a greater than average tendency to anxiety, shyness, sensitivity, intelligence, and aesthetic abilities. But this is speculation. To date, researchers have not yet sought to identify these factors with scientific rigor.

What the majority of respected scientists now believe is that homosexuality is attributable to a combination of psychological, social, and biological factors.

From the American Psychological Association "[M]any scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors."{6}

From "Gay Brain" Researcher Simon LeVay "At this point, the most widely held opinion [on causation of homosexuality] is that multiple factors play a role."{7}

From Dennis McFadden, University of Texas neuroscientist: "Any human behavior is going to be the result of complex intermingling of genetics and environment. It would be astonishing *if it were not true for homosexuality."{8}

**From Sociologist Steven Goldberg
* "**I know of no one **in the field who argues that homosexuality can be explained without reference to environmental factors."{9}

As we have seen, there is no evidence that homosexuality is simply "genetic"--and none of the research itself claims there is.

Only the press and certain researchers do, when speaking in sound bites to the public.

...

The term come out of the Closet sounds quite appropriate......


The WATER CLOSET...................:(

Re: Homosexuality and Islam

...

Re: Homosexuality and Islam

Ecoshan the reason I don't respond to your posts is because they are illogical. Also because it is fun to see you get all "hot and bothered" over the issue of homosexuality. You know where your closet is? Additionally You are using religion in an abhorrent manner to suit your personal opinion. In the end Allah has decreed Homosexuality is Haraam. Correct? At the end of the day your attempts to ease your own mind or conscience latter little.

As for that thread. Little was done to prove it was natural. Just because you saw a lion humping a lion does not mean its natural. The second page of the very same article states that in most of these cases it was a social normal. Meaning that the apes in question did it as part of their society functioned denoting a form of thought process. By no means genetic.

^yep, gay gene is a common retort however it is interesting to know that it hasnt been confirmed in strictly scientific terms, it is merely a possibility. so instead of being a heritage it becomes a matter of choice. in other words controlable.

Thats wat happens bro when ppl start arguing for their ego :) every post i wrote i started from the same comment, that u started ur argument by saying that doing something Haram makes u kaafir/non muslim/ rejector instead of making u a sinner. and u didnt even back or prove that once :) so please if u can not back something, and its about Islam, please keep ur mouth shut, it might mislead someone, and its harming u aswell.

then u starting arguing that its not natural. and i said there are 2 equally balanced group of bilogists one says its natural one says its not and both of equally logical proofs, if its natural then being attracted by guys and having wet dreams about em or being aroused by seeing em is not haram but making all this practical is haram, just like guys having wet dreams about girls and being aroused by em is not haram but adultery or not lowering their gaze when girls are around is haram as its natural.

then u said give me a link that its natural, give me a link, give me a link, give me a link.i guess u were given 2 or 3 links. i guessed u had kept ur eyes opened while clicking on the link, i didnt post any link about one animal humping another, go back and click at my link, it was purely for human prooving that humans can naturaly be gay. it provided scientific facts, and in the same post i also wrote that dont rely on links in this case cuz on internet anybody can make a site and write anything he wants, so go to a library read an authentic scientific book and get ur facts straight. pata nahi yaar kiski posts ko meri posts samajh ker perhtey rehe ho.

then u started beating about the bush that "if its natural, y would Allah declare it haram and punish u for this" first of all ur argument is illogical not my reply, i literally laughed when u said that my reply was illogical as i also involved quran in it. so basically u were saying that if something is natural Allah can not declare it haram, and can not punish u for that. so i told u about surah Al-Nour :) Allah tells TWICE to lower ur gaze, and gave the argument that if u see a chick in bikini with nice curves, isnt it natural to get attracted by her and staring at her??? if u say its not natural then u really need to see a psychiatrist. but it is haram in islam my bro :) u r not allowed to look at that girl, u r suppose to submit the natural desire of looking at her. now u tell me that first of all Allah made it natural for us to get attracted by women, then he also told us to not even look at em, then stopped us from intermingling of sexes, then stopped us from pre marital sex, and all this stuff is somethign that u get a natural desire of, but dont u control ur natural desires??

then i also mentioned shaving pubic hair, now dont tell me that they are something un-natural and its choice that u push a button and they stop growing. they grow naturally but u r suppose to shave em. wow again the same scenario, something natural but not allowed to keep.

now tell me how the argument is illogical???

brother arguments apart, but ive been requesting u from the beginning of this thread that bro when it comes to islam, stop arguing on something that u havent study, when u study Quran, when u study Fiqh, then come and prove others wrong. dont just come and start saying that once u do something haram u r not a muslim anymore, u r a kafir, rejector of faith.

again the samething as i said many times in this discussion that may Allah guide both of us, everything thats right in this post is by Allah and everything wrong is by me.

m not a scholar, m just a proud student of ISlam and insha Allah i'll be the same my whole life.

Re: Homosexuality and Islam

and CM, if u have read my above post, just u start beating about the bush and first tell that homosexuality is haram in Islam, and then u qoute the definition of homosexuality and then u say it also includes the thoughts (you have done all this in this very thread) just leme tell u that Quran has forbidden u from having sex with men, instead of having it with ur wives, not even once Allah used to word "homosexuality", Allah didn talk about feelings, Allah just forbade having physical intercourse with men. if the thoughts are natural u can just try to control em, and keep em to urself.

now dont start googling, open the Quran bro, Allah didn send us for animals, its for us.

It depends on what your definition of homosexuality is. Allah didn’t reveal your dictionary with the Koran.

English dictionaries and their definitions came much later and it’s not sensible to use them to explain what the Koran means.

The Koran doesn’t even use the word “homosexual”.

Allah only forbids having sex with other men. Full Stop.

Sexual attraction is something nobody can help and we’re not punished for it.

For the secong bolded part, that’s what I mean, Allah doesn’t punish us for our feelings if we can’t help them (regardless of whether they are enviromental or biological, enviromental doesn’t necceesarily mean a choice, incidents early in life can also affect our brains).

PS. I think CM is either really stupid, I mean THICK as pig poo or he’s a Non-Muslim trying to present a distorted image of Islam like the foreign agents in Pakistan who grow big beards, learn Pashto/Arabic/Urdu and then go around preaching a terrorist version of Islam to destroy Pakistan and the Muslim Ummah.

I once read how Paki forces discovered some European journalists who set up a fake terrorist training camp in some part of Pak and used actors to act as Tale ban for them.

There are a lot of things are that "natural" for example regular hetrosexual lust especially for people one is not married to is Natural but Haram in islam. Islam asks humans to curb a lot of aspects of their 'anamalistic' nature and rise above. I dont' see this as an issue. Just cause it is natural it can still be considred Haram.