History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

[lahori_bhai]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

@StirCrasy

Also you forget India has one of the top 3 or top 2 muslim populations in the world, so your statement about divide is bakwas.

Get some facts in future

That does not prove anything. The muslim population happens to be the most persecuted and despised minority in india.

India’s Muslims deemed to be in dire straits

Haroon Siddiqui sums up a federal report that has global implications

Feb 11, 2007 04:30 AM
Haroon Siddiqui

NEW DELHI–The president of India is a Muslim. The leading tennis star, Sania Mirza, is a Muslim woman. Three members of the national cricket XI are Muslim. So are the biggest stars of the ubiquitous Bollywood movies, as also India’s two leading and world-renowned painters, M. F. Husain and Tyeb Mehta.
Yet, in the many paradoxes that characterize India, the 150-million Muslim minority in this nation of 1.3 billion is in crisis, due to entrenched official and social discrimination, according to a federal commission.
The Prime Minister’s High-Level Committee, as it was called, was headed by Rajindar Sachar, retired chief justice of the Delhi High Court.
His unflinching report, released two months ago, is under intense national debate. It has international relevance as well:

• Many of the prejudices it cites have an eerie echo of the West’s post-9/11 Islamophobia.

• The fate of the world’s second-largest group of Muslims, after Indonesia’s 180 million, does matter. For example, Indian Muslim moderation has been held up by both India and the U.S. as proof that a secular democracy is a good antidote to terrorism. That argument gets eroded if such a polity fails the community, as Sachar declares.
  Historically Muslims have been a minority in the subcontinent, albeit a ruling one for several centuries. But when British India was divided in 1947, Muslims formed a majority in Pakistan. When Pakistan itself got carved up in 1971, Muslims formed a majority in Bangladesh as well. But they are a minority in India where, at times, they have been accused of dual loyalty to Pakistan and targeted in periodic pogroms.
  Sachar says Muslims “carry a double burden of being ‘anti-national’ and being ‘appeased’ at the same time. They must prove on a daily basis that they’re not ‘anti-nation’ and `terrorists.’ It is not recognized that the alleged ‘appeasement’ has not resulted in the desired level of socio-economic development” for them.
  During sectarian violence, his seven-member commission says, Muslims are victimized many times over:

• By the Hindu communalists who attack them.

• By police who side with the criminals and are “heavy-handed” with Muslims, raiding their homes “at the slightest pretext.”

• By media, which “overplay the involvement of Muslims in violent activities and underplay the involvement of others.”

• By governments that fail to “bring to book the perpetrators of communal violence” and fail to compensate Muslim victims.
  Muslims – “fearing for their safety and security” and fleeing “social boycott in certain parts of the country,” where they cannot buy or rent property – are abandoning areas “they have lived in for centuries,” and moving to Muslim areas.
  “Distress sales” of properties in the areas they are fleeing from fetch them a low price, while they pay inflated prices in the “secure” areas they move to.
  Worse, Muslim neighbourhoods have become “easy targets for neglect by municipal and government authorities. Water, sanitation, electricity, schools, public health facilities, banking, ration shops, roads and transportation facilities are all in short supply in these areas.”
  Muslims, clustered in urban areas, are poorer than others.
  “Their conditions on the whole are only slightly better than those of scheduled castes and scheduled tribes” – those on the lowest rungs of the Hindu caste system and traditionally the most discriminated against.
  Only 27 per cent of urban Muslims are engaged in regular work vs. 49 per cent for upper caste Hindus and 40 per cent for the scheduled castes, Sachar says.
  In the coveted public sector, Muslims have the lowest share, 24 per cent vs. 39 per cent for the lower castes. In federal police, the share of Muslims is just 6 per cent vs. 42 per cent for upper caste Hindus and 23 per cent for the lower castes. In defence-related jobs, Muslims have only 4 per cent of the jobs.
  Muslims are, of necessity, disproportionately self-employed, as casual labour or street vendors – that, too, without fixed locations. Yet they do not have proportionate access to credit, in part because their areas are ill-served by banks.
  As disheartening as all this is, it is worth noting in the context of Indian democracy that Sachar is a Hindu, and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who is promising a series of remedial measures, is a Sikh.

That is why i say that the muslim-hindu divide is big and the partition was necessary. The differences between hindus and muslims can never be reconciled and the two cannot live as equals in the same country

[lakkis25]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

^^ sirjee, Ask any Western Punjabi and he'll tell you horrors of Pakistan. In my village alone, my grandfather helped save lives on 1000s of sikhs and Hindus by helping them convert to Islam. There were hopes back then that entire Punjab, Kashmir and Hyderabad would be given to Pakistan and the Hindu/Sikh population would be re-settled somewhere else or converted to Islam- but that didn't happen :(

how does it consider as a help, i prefer to die then converting

[StirCrasy]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

@lahori_bhai

That is why i say that the muslim-hindu divide is big and the partition was necessary. The differences between hindus and muslims can never be reconciled and the two cannot live as equals in the same country

do you know how many muslims live in India?

[ehtasab]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

^ You missed on "equals", I think thats what his emphasis was.

[StirCrasy]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

^ when it comes to rights under law actually muslims are more than equal. google 'reservations' 'quotas' and 'difficulties of Brahmins'. Indian government has historically been pandering all minority communities including muslims so excessively that now there is a movement gaining ground 'for protection of the forward community'!!! Only in India

[simplyme]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

^^ sirjee, Ask any Western Punjabi and he'll tell you horrors of Pakistan. In my village alone, my grandfather helped save lives on 1000s of sikhs and Hindus by helping them convert to Islam. There were hopes back then that entire Punjab, Kashmir and Hyderabad would be given to Pakistan and the Hindu/Sikh population would be re-settled somewhere else or converted to Islam- but that didn't happen :(

He helped 1000s of sikhs and Hindus by helping them to convert. Where did you get the number. If what you say is true, your grandfather would have been venerated in Pakistan. Can you just tell me how many 1000s...

Also didnt your grandfather have any better methods in saving these 1000s...

[ehtasab]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

^ please add some salt, some sugar and some red-chilli in order to digest his post, thanks.

[unre4l]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

This is Pakistani history not Indian. For a very simple reason, Pakistanis have always lived on that land. Unless you believe that all Indians in South Asia and Pakistanis were crammed into the Pakistan region in ancient times, while the rest of India lay there empty.

Indus Valley, Ghandara, Porus Kingdom happened in Pakistan and the history belongs to Pakistani ancestors.

All neighbours share culture, thats not a good enough reason to throw away OUR history to the Indians.
Not to mention Pakistanis have been Muslim for 1300 years. We share some culture, but we have always had different identities. The Indus Valley is the ancient history of Pakistan.** Harappa, Mohenjo Daro, Taxila, Mehragh, Swat** are all in Pakistan.

And some of you Pakistanis are extremely naive to think that Indians like Pakistan. Go to Bharat Rakshak forums to see what they truly think about us. And have a plastic bag or something; you will be sick to your stomachs after reading about all that hate. Or like me, you will simply be amused and laugh maniacally.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

@StirCrasy

^ when it comes to rights under law actually muslims are more than equal. google 'reservations' 'quotas' and 'difficulties of Brahmins'.

As I have repeatedly pointed out, those reservations for the most part aren't for Muslims.

Only 2 states have reservations specifically for Muslims - Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh (and in both cases, the reservations are nowhere near the actual Muslim population share). In the rest of India, there are SC (Scheduled Caste) and OBC (Other Backward Caste) reservations, for members of marginalized groups of any religion, identified by each state. According to the Sachar Committee, under current laws, the majority of Indian Muslims do not qualify as either (in fact, not even 1% of Muslims qualify as SC's). In many states (W. Bengal, Assam, Maharashtra, etc) 90-100% of the Muslim population doesn't quality for either status.

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

Hello!

I have to disagree with some of the premise in this idea and agree with some.

India and Pakistan certainly share the cultural history, ethnic mixture and religious profile. Neither can claim it as exclusive to the exclusion of the other. This can be seen from how common the customs are, religious practices are, and even how similar people look.

But in a particular way of thinking we have to believe these are different - when you talk about history of something, you cannot have history before it was created. In that respect, Pakistan cannot have a history before it was conceived and created. Because Pakistan as a concept came about only recently, as a country for the muslims of the sub-continent. That concept cannot be held to have a history before being so conceived.

My view point, that is all.
With regards
Pundit Vikram

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

^ hey Mr.Pundit is here! What happened, nothing do at citibank?

[lakkis25]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

As I have repeatedly pointed out, those reservations for the most part aren't for Muslims.

Only 2 states have reservations specifically for Muslims - Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh (and in both cases, the reservations are nowhere near the actual Muslim population share). In the rest of India, there are SC (Scheduled Caste) and OBC (Other Backward Caste) reservations, for members of marginalized groups of any religion, identified by each state. According to the Sachar Committee, under current laws, the majority of Indian Muslims do not qualify as either (in fact, not even 1% of Muslims qualify as SC's). In many states (W. Bengal, Assam, Maharashtra, etc) 90-100% of the Muslim population doesn't quality for either status.

no reservations here either and you know the muslim population of both states
Tamilnadu just 5% and AP just 8.7% and they are planning for 10% reservations

[janab-e-ali]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

no reservations here either and you know the muslim population of both states Tamilnadu just 5% and AP just 8.7% and they are planning for 10% reservations

Tamil Nadu is 5.6% Muslim, with a reservation of just 3.5%
Andhra is 9.2% Muslim, with a reservation of just 4%

Kerala has some very limited Muslim reservations, and that's it for the entire country.

And if by "here" you mean the US, ironically, despite being such recent immigrants, Muslims don't face anywhere near the same levels of discrimination here that they do in places like India.

[unre4l]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

Hello!

I have to disagree with some of the premise in this idea and agree with some.

India and Pakistan certainly share the cultural history, ethnic mixture and religious profile. Neither can claim it as exclusive to the exclusion of the other. This can be seen from how common the customs are, religious practices are, and even how similar people look.

But in a particular way of thinking we have to believe these are different - when you talk about history of something, you cannot have history before it was created. In that respect, Pakistan cannot have a history before it was conceived and created. Because Pakistan as a concept came about only recently, as a country for the muslims of the sub-continent. That concept cannot be held to have a history before being so conceived.

My view point, that is all. With regards Pundit Vikram

Do you know how stupid that sounds?

Pakistanis werent created in 1947. We didnt just pop out in 1947. Our peoples history goes back to the Indus Valley.
And why exactly should it be called Indian history? Because you are too insecure?
The history of Pakistani people has nothing to do with Indians. Just like the history of Indian ancestors has nothing to do with Pakistanis.

Its nonsensical to steal someones history because of a name change.

[chintu_bhopali]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

Do you know how stupid that sounds?

Pakistanis werent created in 1947. We didnt just pop out in 1947. Our peoples history goes back to the Indus Valley. And why exactly should it be called Indian history? Because you are too insecure? The history of Pakistani people has nothing to do with Indians. Just like the history of Indian ancestors has nothing to do with Pakistanis.

Its nonsensical to steal someones history because of a name change.

i M an indian and my ancestors were from the land what you calll it pakistan. Infact, the great porus is linked to our ancestory.so how you can claim the whole thing as yours?

[chintu_bhopali]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

chal claim karna hain to kar le..waise claim karke bhi kya ukhad loge.

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

Do you know how stupid that sounds?

Pakistanis werent created in 1947. We didnt just pop out in 1947. Our peoples history goes back to the Indus Valley. And why exactly should it be called Indian history? Because you are too insecure? The history of Pakistani people has nothing to do with Indians. Just like the history of Indian ancestors has nothing to do with Pakistanis.

Its nonsensical to steal someones history because of a name change.

Hello unreal,

I do not think it sounds stupid at all. The concept of Pakistan as you know is a very recent development in historical terms. The only reason it was conceived was to provide a secure nation for Muslims of India to move to (according to founders of the concept).

You may even go further to say even the concept of "Muslims" is a somewhat later development as it came about only around the 6th century after Christ.

Of course the people who are now citizens of Pakistan have ancestry that is comprised of Indians, Iranians, Mongols etc.

The history of the people of Pakistan therefore predates the history of the concept of Pakistan which in turn predates the history of the nation called Pakistan.

I hope this clarification helps.

Regards
Pundit Vikram

[Monk]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

This is Pakistani history not Indian. For a very simple reason, Pakistanis have always lived on that land. Unless you believe that all Indians in South Asia and Pakistanis were crammed into the Pakistan region in ancient times, while the rest of India lay there empty.

Indus Valley, Ghandara, Porus Kingdom happened in Pakistan and the history belongs to Pakistani ancestors. .

Totally agree with you, we always belonged to pakistan!!!!

[janab-e-ali]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

The only reason it was conceived was to provide a secure nation for Muslims of India to move to (according to founders of the concept).

What is this "India" you're referring to? The modern nation state which was created one day after Pakistan, or the hodgepodge of culturally and historically distinct, English-ruled, colonial territories in South Asia that were referred to collectively as 'British India' after 1858...and which, for all practical purposes, hadn't been united under a single government before then.

The post-colonial, artificial construct label can just as easily be applied to India...people from glass countries shouldn't throw stones.

[unre4l]

Re: History of Pakistan since 3000 BC

i M an indian and my ancestors were from the land what you calll it pakistan. Infact, the great porus is linked to our ancestory.so how you can claim the whole thing as yours?

And yet another one. Every Indian I meet claims to really be from Pakistan. Its getting tiring to listen to mate.

And seriously, there is no way of telling that anyones ancestry is from Porus.
Porus Kingdom was entirely in Pakistan, you simply cant claim it on any grounds.

Hello unreal,

I do not think it sounds stupid at all. The concept of Pakistan as you know is a very recent development in historical terms. The only reason it was conceived was to provide a secure nation for Muslims of India to move to (according to founders of the concept).

You may even go further to say even the concept of "Muslims" is a somewhat later development as it came about only around the 6th century after Christ.

Of course the people who are now citizens of Pakistan have ancestry that is comprised of Indians, Iranians, Mongols etc.

The history of the people of Pakistan therefore predates the history of the concept of Pakistan which in turn predates the history of the nation called Pakistan.

I hope this clarification helps.

Regards Pundit Vikram

There is no need to throw political meanings around. When I say history of Pakistan, what do you think I actually mean? Of course I mean the history of the Pakistani people.
If you want to make this political to label this history as "Indian", then dont expect to be taken seriously.

Do you know how many countries gained independence the last century?
Afghanistan is by no means an ancient nation, and the term "Iran" is also recent, yet you only have a problem with Pakistan.

Pakistani citizens are not "Afghan" or "Indian", they are** Punjabis, Sindhis, Pashtun, Kashmiris and Baluchis*. And correct me if I am wrong, but **these ethnic group outnumber their counterparts in all Neighbouring nations. Not to mention these ethnic groups are minorities in Iran and India, so you cant claim Pakistanis to be "Indians" or anything else. **We have our own identity*. Deal with it.