Hinduisnm vs Islam

Another replay of Sita agarwal website, the same person who translates 'dharma' as 'occupation'.

Atharwa veda also has prayers for birth of female child if u wish so.

Taitiriya samhita.. at best a minor book. and 'Hence they abandon...' need not be understood as 'They should abandon...'.

Bye.. and get better sources and learn a little sanskrit at least as much as I know urdu.

You are not telling why ur prophet wanted to marry 9 yr. old. Her father might have asked. But it was ur proplhet's duty to tell him that there is a bad mismatch and such marriages should not occur. But he liked the 9 yr old kid who should have been playing than getting married. You take such people as ideal.

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:
**
ZZ, Here are the prayers you asked for:
**
[/quote]

To Mr Xtreme - have you read these works that you are quoting? Or is reading Sita Aggarwal's commentary on her interpretation of scripture enough for you? It is easy to pick parts from the Quran and the hadiths that can show a similar distaste for women, provided they are out of context. In particular, while quoting the Taittriya Samhita - have you read the Taittriya Upanishad - a much more read portion of the Vedas?

In particular, the articles you link to mention that the more educated sections of India do not suffer these female infanticide issues. It is then the goal of ours to help educate our Hindu brethren. As to why the uneducated masses do this - I'll leave it at saying that the discussion of whether Mughal and British rule caused this scenario will cause another firestorm, and will not be solved here.

ZZ says:

[quote]
I had similar hopes when I was equally new on the forum. But it wont take long to realize Xtremes and mundayyas are more interested in point scoring than a discussion.
[/quote]

ZZ now you are trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. Since I have been here all I have seen is that Indians who participate in this site generally come with the sole reason of dissing Pakistan. Inevitably that includes muslim-bashing. Go onto any other Pakistani forum and you will see the same thing. Infested with Indians who have been having a field day bombarding those places with info from specially created anti-muslim web-sites. I can give you links to a dozen if you want.

It wouldn't be so bad but today's Indi is governed by a party with links not dissimilar to people running those sites.

It is only recently that we have had access to material that allows us to pay you back in the same coin. It isn't pleasant is it? Well now you know how it feels.

My sincere advice to all Indians who are genuine in wanting a better relationship is to start condemning the Hindutva movement which has gripped India and which culminated in destruction of the Babri masjid and the riots that followed.

Twisting of historical facts to make muslims barbarians and hindus innocent victims has to be canned too. The Taj Mahal being a classic example. These places are monuments to be proud of for muslims of India and now we have to listen to hindu zealots claiming them as their own.

Even now you are harping on about 9 year olds when really it's the pot calling the kettle black.

I wonder if you couldn't talk about such things would you bother coming here?

I am not harping on anything. I say people are falliable and morals are bound by times they are in.

Islam does not agree. It believes prophet is infalliable, cant make mistakes. others should model life around it. And it also believes waht was followed in Bedouin tribe of 6th century should still be followed.

As far as ur usage of agarwal website, u just make fool of urself when u translate 'dharma' as occupation. I could write a more sensible critique of hinduism if ISI is gong to pay me for that. At least not the one which is obviously stupid.

I think if after all the information that has been posted, all you can complain about is a couple of translation it might be splitting hairs a bit.

BTW, marrying children isn't an islamic instruction, although it seems to be in the hindu books. So it's a bit stupid to keep bringing it into this unless you can prove that muslims are encouraged to do so. Especially as in your own scriptures you are given ideal age ratio of 3:1 for male:female.

So get it in your thick skull: Marrying young girls is not required in the Quran; It is in the hindu scriptures. I suggest you wait till you are 50, that way at least girl will be of a reasonable age as well.

whether or not it is islamic tradition, prophet married a child and following prophet all the way to length of beard, is islamic tradition.

prophet married a child and following prophet all the way to length of beard, is islamic tradition.

following that logic then, we should all live in tents ride donkeys and camels. How many muslims do you know who have married 9 year olds? Are they being excommunicated for not doing so? Use some common sense. first learn what are the requirements for muslims before telling us how to follow our religion. Tell me, are cows still holy in hinduism or has that been kicked into touch as well?

Of course, my knowledge of Islam does not match ur knowledge of Hinduism. Thanks to websites that convert novice in expert in a matter of 20 seconds (that are needed for cut and paste), u even know 'Taitiriya samhita' which I am sure 99% Hindus dont know if exists and can quote wachaspati which again most would not know about.
But then what are hadith? Essentially u try to model life on what Mr. Mohammad did in those times. What he did is highly recommended.

To all those who continue to harp on the age of ayesha (R) and all muslims who try to justify it. Read the following links and come to your own conclusions. Please do read the follow up material on this website.
Peace
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm

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" The 5 products of the cow, milk, curds, ghee, urine and dung are all used in purificatory ceremonies, and cow-dung is `worshipped as an emblem of the discus of Vishnu, as is the yellow pigment of the cow'."

`Harper's Encyclopedia of Hinduism', p.100

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I reckon Lord Vishnu would appreciate it if you followed hindu tradition. You should keep a decent supply of cow dung in your house for worship purposes. I'm sure I could find a Brahmin priest who would highly recommend it.

some girls get matured quickly.... if u want the proof look at the 10 yr old pregnant girls in US and young shoodar hindu girls who are made prostitutes at a very young age by their brahman lords.

any girl who is old enough to reproduce should be allowed to marry rather than ending up like some school age girls of US and/or devdasies of TODAY.

[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Xtreme:

**

" The 5 products of the cow, milk, curds, ghee, urine and dung are all used in purificatory ceremonies, and cow-dung is `worshipped as an emblem of the discus of Vishnu, as is the yellow pigment of the cow'."

`Harper's Encyclopedia of Hinduism', p.100

I reckon Lord Vishnu would appreciate it if you followed hindu tradition. You should keep a decent supply of cow dung in your house for worship purposes. I'm sure I could find a Brahmin priest who would highly recommend it.
**
[/quote]

OK we will get to benefits of camel urine and hadiths stating that. see ya tomorrow evening.

ZZ:
** How much choice did Ayesha have in marriage **

Good question.Yes she was asked by her father if she has any objection and doesn't want to marry Muhammad(s.a.w).It is Islamic law to ask the girl wether she wants to marry the person or not.If you know something, Islamic marriege, nikah is performed in such a way,where groom and the bride,both are asked and they have complete right to reject or accept the marriege purposal.There is no doubt that Ayesha (raze-ala-tala-anha) agreed on marrying Muhammad(s.a.w)

** why marrying several men by woman is vulgur while marrying several women by men are signs of prophethood. **

First of all, i would like to clear this misunderstanding that marrying more than one woman is not a sign of prophethood, infact it doesn't have to do anything with prophethood. Polygamy is not started by Islam, before Muhammad(s.a.w) men married more than 4 women,but Islam restricted and allowed only 4 wives and with some conditions set.

** masooma, why 7 brothers marrying one woman is vulgur while one man marrying 9 women as ur prophet did is not vulgur **

I believe in equality between men and women, but ISLAMIC SOCIETY IS "A DUAL SEX
RATHER THAN UNISEX SOCIETY". While maintaining the validity of the equal worth of men and women, the Quran does not judge this equality to mean equivalence or identity of the sexes.
Probably you are familiar with the contemporary move toward unisex clothes and shoes, unisex jewellery and hair styles, unisex actions and entertainments. In fact, it is often difficult in America(and who can forget indi.a) to decide whether one is looking at a boy or a girl. Although WESTERN COUNTRIES and Indi.a highly influenced by western culture, meant to bring a larger measure of equality for women, the idea that men and women are not only equal, but equivalent and identical, has actually pushed women into imitating men and even despising their womanhood. Thus it is generating a new type of male chauvinism. Tremendous social pressures have resulted in stripping women of their role-responsibilities formerly performed by them, and they are forced to live a life devoid of personality and individuality.
The society based on the QURAN is, in contrast, a dual-sex society in which both sexes are assigned their special responsibilities. This assures the healthy functioning of the society for the benefit of all its members,men and women are equal but NOT identicle, a guy marrying 4 women will know that each kid from all wives are his, but a women marrying more than one guy, GOSH! its sick and she will have a lot of propblem telling her husbands whose child is it, well if you find such equality honorable in your relegion, what can i say, we are muslims and find that very unpure and vulgar.

*Poor girl. Became widow in youth, by marrying an old man. did she get a kid from prophet. i dont think so. how sad. such a bad marital life just because a old man lusted for u when u were 9 yrs *

-Rational answered this post of yours ZZ, and you don't have to feel sorry for Hazrat Ayesha raze-ala-tala-anha because she was very happy when got married to Hazrat Muhammad (s.a.w)

Astrosfan:
** , she wished to take her statement back, but Arjuna decided that his mother's words should not be said in vain. And so, out of respect for his mother, Draupadi married the 5 brothers, and was shared equally. This setup also ended happily for Draupadi, and was of course, after she was of decent age **

No sir, this is no excuse for performing such a vulgar act.Dhropati was a woman and she was won?and so was shared by 5 brothers?oh come on, you find it sophisticated??was she given freedom of speach and to decide wether she wants to marry 5 brothers?well yea, after she was married to 5 brothers, she was happy but what about before she got married?and how come the society allowed such an act to be performed?

** Hinduism and Islam both recommend monogamous marriage, and both have histories and polygamy. **

True, Islam has a history and polygamy being performed but not polyandry!!polygamy is also allowed under some circumstances and with some conditions.It is made very hard to be performed, the man has to deal all four wives equaly in all aspects of life which is impossible for an ordinary human being, only a super man can be powerful enough to treat four wives equaly, but yes, one thing i should mention, Islam ALLOWES polygamy but it Prefers MONOGAMMY!

Masooma

No sir, this is no excuse for performing such a vulgar act.Dhropati was a woman and she was won and so was shared by 5 brothers?oh come on, you find it sophisticated?? was she given freedom of speach and to decide whether she wants to marry 5 brothers? well yea, after she was married to 5 brothers, she was happy but what about before she got married? and how come the society allowed such an act to be performed?

A couple things here. In the custom of the day, the daughter of a princess was a much sought after lady for marriage. Her father would then hold a contest for would be suitors, in this case an archery contest, to find the best suitor. (More ammo for you - Rama won his wife Sita similarly, but for him, it was more of a "Sword in the Stone" prophesy). Arjuna didn't actually win this particular contest, he came in second, but Draupadi chose him over the man who came in first. Was she given freedom of speech - well, she never disagreed or complained about the decision, which I'm sure is not good enough for you. Be that as it may, remember that the story of the Mahabharata heroes is a story of tragedies and mistakes, meant to show us how to perservere. Hindu society respects the words of the mother, and the sanctity of marriage - but in this case, there is a conflict. The solution of multiple marriage is considered a solution to the conundrum. Whether or not you agree or disagree that is correct is left up to the reader. It does not mean that we Hindus are meant to emulate every act of these Pandavas. Interestingly enough, Draupadi had 5 sons, one from each husband, and was able to discriminate who the fathers of each son was. In case you were wondering - at no time did Draupadi sleep with more than one of the brothers at one time - if a brother even entered the room while Draupadi was with another, he was exiled for a year. Arjuna once had left his weapons in his oldest brothers room, and had to retrieve them during a siege. Unfortunately, his oldest brother Yujishtira was with Draupadi. He decided for the sake of his kingdom to retrieve his weapons so he snuck into the room and retrieved his weapons making sure not to be noticed. After the battle, he promptly exiled himself.

*True, Islam has a history and polygamy being performed but not polyandry!!polygamy is also allowed under some circumstances and with some conditions.It is made very hard to be performed, the man has to deal all four wives equaly in all aspects of life which is impossible for an ordinary human being, only a super man can be powerful enough to treat four wives equaly, but yes, one thing i should mention, Islam ALLOWES polygamy but it Prefers MONOGAMMY! *

And Hinduism prefers monogamy as well, as I said before. Citing specific examples of important people in both Islam and Hindu history having multiple spouses does not change the fact that the vast majority of people in both religious traditions are monogamous.

Oh, Masooma, I wanted to ask -

if I'm not mistaken, Islam recommends (or maybe states explicitly) that a girl should not date men in order to remain chaste. In this situation, it is the duty of all parties involved to find a suitable match. If, as in the case of Draupadi, there are several important suitors, what would be the best way to select a husband without drawing the ire of the remaining men? Remember that men in all days and age can have a jealousy streak, expecting everyone to be gracious in loss would require a heroic effort on the part of everyone involved.

[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
**Oh, Masooma, I wanted to ask -

if I'm not mistaken, Islam recommends (or maybe states explicitly) that a girl should not date men in order to remain chaste. In this situation, it is the duty of all parties involved to find a suitable match. If, as in the case of Draupadi, there are several important suitors, what would be the best way to select a husband without drawing the ire of the remaining men? Remember that men in all days and age can have a jealousy streak, expecting everyone to be gracious in loss would require a heroic effort on the part of everyone involved.**
[/quote]

Im glad my dear you asked.Yes Islam doesn't allow muslim women to date, and muslim men to date either.Its not about gender first of all, and secodly,there is a way so called "DATING" is set in Islam. A man and a woman before getting married have a complete right to communicate with eachother but in the presence of another Mehram(a person from the family, blood relative)person.The guy can even ask the girl to take off her head covering but only if he seriously intends to marry that girl,and the girl has the right to aprove or reject the porposal of the guy if she doesn't like something about the person.Another thing, Hazrat khateja(raze-ala-tala-anha)Hazrat Muhammad(s.a.w)'s first wife, she was the one who took the first step and porposed Hazrat Muhammad(s.a.w). Islam doesn't restrict any gender to take the first step,a woman can like a guy and then porpose him by any means she feel comfortable but decent.Dating in a way in which a girl and a guy go out alone is not allowed because it may lead them to the wrong path.This was the way Islam allow muslims to get to know the people they intend to marry.

Now about the situation you are talking about, Drohpati was won by five brothers,but she getting married should be a different issue,she should have given the right to choose her husband depending on what kind of qualities she wanted in her husband, jealousy among brothers is a different issue, that shouldn't be the cause for her to marry all of them, are you saying if all brothers like the same girl, that makes them eligeable to marry that SINGLE GIRL? come on!Talk some sense dear.People should control themselves,WHAT WILL BE YOUR NEXT QUESTION?what if a son wants to marry his mother?OH COME ON,THATS SICK!

Masooma

[quote]
Originally posted by Masooma:
**
Now about the situation you are talking about, Drohpati was won by five brothers,but she getting married should be a different issue,she should have given the right to choose her husband depending on what kind of qualities she wanted in her husband, jealousy among brothers is a different issue, that shouldn't be the cause for her to marry all of them, are you saying if all brothers like the same girl, that makes them eligeable to marry that SINGLE GIRL? come on!Talk some sense dear.People should control themselves,WHAT WILL BE YOUR NEXT QUESTION?what if a son wants to marry his mother?OH COME ON,THATS SICK!

Masooma**
[/quote]

No - you misunderstood. The 5 brothers did not all take part in the competition - only Arjuna did. When I spoke of jealousy, I speak of the other suitors at the swayamvara, all of whom were trying to court Draupadi. The 4 brothers of Arjuna were there for moral support, with no intention of winning the bride for themselves. There were happy for Arjuna, and celebrated with him, not against him. It was only after mother Kunti mistakenly said the prize must be shared that Draupadi agreed that the wishes of mother must be followed. You see - Draupadi respects the mother of her future husband, enough to understand and willingly marry all 5 brothers, given the circumstances. What makes this situation unique is the words of mother - otherwise, Draupadi does not marry 5 men.

No one is stopping you from calling it sick. My only request is that you read and understand the story, so that you can critique and slam it intelligently instead of willy-nilly claiming that somebody somewhere married 8 men and claiming that this is then common in Hinduism.

Out of curiosity, what else do you know of Draupadi? The circumstances of her birth, of her devotion to Krishna, and of her own trials and tribulations during her life?

out of pure curiousity mr extreme..iw ould like to know where to find these vedic words of wisdom...please dont get carried away with them......

Also Xtreme, I told you the verses you are quoting from Gita, do not exist in the Gita I have. Do you mind guiding me to the source where you are quoting Krishna's words from.

P.S. I am not saying you are wrong but it is simply not there in Gita. Reg. other quotes, you can make out on your own something and say it is there in Manusmriti or whatever nobody will challenge you because as mentioned before 99.999% of hindus do neither believe nor read that.

FOR DHIR

Here is the source for the verses of Bhagavat Gita you asked for. The link is provided, and if you follow the link I am sure you will agree to it’s authenticity. It is a genuine hindu website.

Full translation is provided. There is also a commentary provided on each verse but I left it out to save space.

http://www.iskcon.org/sastra/f_bg.html

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3:TEXT 35

sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah
para-dharmat sv-anusthitat
sva-dharme nidhanam sreyah
para-dharmo bhayavahah

WORD FOR WORD

sreyan – far better; sva-dharmah – one’s prescribed duties; vigunah – even faulty; para-dharmat – than duties mentioned for others; su-anusthitat – perfectly done; sva-dharme – in one’s prescribed duties; nidhanam – destruction; sreyah – better; para-dharmah – duties prescribed for others; bhaya-avahah – dangerous.

TRANSLATION

It is far better to discharge one’s prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another’s duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one’s own duty is better than engaging in another’s duties, for to follow another’s path is dangerous.

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4:TEXT 13

catur-varnyam maya srstam
guna-karma-vibhagasah
tasya kartaram api mam
viddhy akartaram avyayam

WORD FOR WORD

catuh-varnyam – the four divisions of human society; maya – by Me; srstam – created; guna – of quality; karma – and work; vibhagasah – in terms of division; tasya – of that; kartaram – the father; api – although; mam – Me; viddhi – you may know; akartaram – as the nondoer; avyayam – unchangeable.

TRANSLATION

**According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable. **

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18:TEXT 47

sreyan sva-dharmo vigunah
para-dharmat sv-anusthitat
svabhava-niyatam karma
kurvan napnoti kilbisam

WORD FOR WORD

sreyan – better; sva-dharmah – one’s own occupation; vigunah – imperfectly performed; para-dharmat – than another’s occupation; su-anusthitat – perfectly done; svabhava-niyatam – prescribed according to one’s nature; karma – work; kurvan – performing; na – never; apnoti – achieves; kilbisam – sinful reactions.

TRANSLATION

**It is better to engage in one’s own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another’s occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one’s nature are never affected by sinful reactions. **