Hinduism and caste...

Re: Hinduism and caste...

Here are the words from the last sermon of Prophet Mhammad(PBUH) about racism......

O people, Remember that your Lord is One. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a black has no superiority over white, nor a white has any superiority over black, except by piety and good action (Taqwa). Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly? People responded, Yes. O messenger of God, The Prophet then said, then each one of you who is there must convey this to everyone not present.
Excerpt from the Prophet's Last Sermon as in Baihiqi

Re: Hinduism and caste...

pakistanis cant handle the the diversity of religen and ethnicity like india so we have nothing to lear form pakistan.

Re: Hinduism and caste...

^ Once again, we are not discussing Pakistan. Stick to the topic. I have at time tried to finish your clever "turning the table over" technique but you still resort to it. Which itself tell us how receptive you are to your own "diversity", as you say so......

And by the way, truth of the matter is that India has to be secular otherwise, imposing "Hindutva" on others will only lead to destruction and division as one happened in 1947..........

What the beautiful name have been given to the rule of Hindutva as "DIVERSITY" people might be christians, Parsis or Muslims BY NAME but they are all SLAVES of the HINDU BANYA/MALWARI.............. it this what is called diversity?

Re: Hinduism and caste…

Please try the person or his phone number for confirmation who wrote the letter.
He made claim of being available anytime. Let us know what you found.

Re: Hinduism and caste…

Maybe you forgot to read the last few lines where the source of his info was given by Mr. Singh.

Re: Hinduism and caste...

Anjaani Sahab you also not even read my post to see the sources of what gandhi said.

Do you still need the link? Will it make a difference to you since you don't even read what is available for you.

What kind of argument is that comparing the Prophet (PBUH) and believing what is said in favor or against him....

The thread is about cast system to stick to it for a while. BTW the Prophet (PBUH) and Islam is against any cast system and no one has any dispute here. I do not need to prove it by any 'legitimate link'.

Re: Hinduism and caste…

In fact, to those who doubt the universal application of democracy and of its economic virtues, I will speak about India. Your country, despite the sizeable challenges it faces, is a remarkable example of what democracy can achieve," the Minister pointed out.

The Minister stated that India, a country of over one billion inhabitants with a highly diversified population in terms of language – it has 1,652 languages or dialects, and 18 languages are recognized as “languages of India”– and of religion, has based its unity “simultaneously on democracy, tolerance, federalism and secularity of the state.”

“This principle of tolerance gave birth to your country: humanity would despair if it did not also characterize its future,” noted Mr. Dion.

Canadians can already find the virtues of unity in diversity within their own history, Mr. Dion claimed, but “nothing could provide them with a better confirmation than the success of the great Indian federation.” For their part, he added, Indians can find in Canada’s success “a meaning to their struggle for democracy, for unity and for greater justice.”

http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/aia/default.asp?Language=E&Page=PressRoom&Sub=PressRelease&Doc=20020423_e.htm

Re: Hinduism and caste…

Ahem,
Mr. Anjjan,
Your post bears no relation to the topic and you have successfully manged to bring in another issue without dealing with the first one. A typical hindu tactic of dealing with a situation when they are being cornered. You yourself brought in comments that were irrelevant and when I tried to answer them, you made my responses “the base” of “another” argument… :rolleyes:

Don’t do it :nono:

Once again to remind you the topic of this thread is “Caste system in India” and I have given explicitly clear references from Bhagawt Geeta to support it.

Why don’t you go ahead and throw some light on that please.

Re: Hinduism and caste...

@ Anjjan

Here is something more that needs elaboration

"(The king) should make a Vaisya engage in trade, lend money, farm the land, or keep livestock; and (he should make) the Sudra the slave of the twice-born. A Brahmin should out of mercy support both a Ksatriya and a Vaisya if they are starved for a livelihood, and have them carry out their own innate activities. But if a Brahmin, out of greed and a sense of power, makes twice-born men who have undergone the transformative rituals do the work of slaves against their will, the king should make him pay a fine of six hundred (pennies). He may, however, make a Sudra do the work of a slave, whether he is bought or not bought; for the Self-existent one created him to be the slave of the Brahmin. Even if he is set free by his master, a Sudra is not set free from slavery; for since that is innate in him, who can take it from him? There are seven ways that slaves come into being: taken under a flag (of war), becoming a slave in order to eat food, born in the house, bought, given, inherited from ancestors, or enslaved as a punishment. A wife, a son, and a slave: these three are traditionally said to have no property; whatever property they acquire belongs to the man to whom they belong. A Brahmin may with confidence take away any possession from a Sudra; for since nothing at all can belong to him as his own, his property can be taken away by his master. (The king) should make the Vaisya and the Sudra carry out their own innate activities diligently; for if the two of them should slip from their own innate activities, they would shake this universe into chaos."
Manusmrti 8:410-418

Re: Hinduism and caste…

we dont need adivise from pakistan . you should promote peace among shia-sunni
in iraq . get involve in improving and strethining islam .

Re: Hinduism and caste...

Rvikz and Anjjan...

This is not an India or Pakistan bashing thread...

The topic is Caste System and Hindus...

Now there is no denying the fact that low caste Hindus face abuse...dont give me any nonsense which suggests anything different because it is a reality so dont try to deny it and say India is a bed of roses...far from it...

Now i pointed out the fact that there seem to be many sources which point out the justification for these rapes etc being from Hindu scripture...

So can you please answer the question...does all this abouse stem from the creed of Hinduism or is it just culture?...

Stick to the question at hand?...

Re: Hinduism and caste…

this indian dude represents REAL BHARAT :rotfl:

all that values to them is YAP YAP YAP .. nigaz dont even make no sence ..

india vs china (195-)—> china

india vs pakistan (1947)—> pakistan

india vs pakistan (1971)—> india

india vs pakistan (karghil)—> pakistan

ass licking of American : pakistan vs india —> india

i exactly know how to slime it on ur indian face ! now get over with PAKISTAN vs INDIA. And reply according to the topic.

Re: Hinduism and caste…

From both side…of Hindu religion and culture. and it has penetrated very deep into the Hindu psyche and mind.

I have seen many hardcore Hindu communists who are official athiests but when looking for matches for their kith and kins, they do not forget to look into the origin and cast.

Re: Hinduism and caste…

I have just contributed to this thread. I am posting the references from Hindu scriptures and you are not paying attention… rather you are just talking about Pakistan, and now diverting the issue to Iraq and Shia_sunni??? :rolleyes:

What about the references from your religious scriptures??? Do you agree it is true or not?

Re: Hinduism and caste...

If the pissing match is all done......

I am no authority. These are my personal views. Please read only if you are interested in the sociological aspects of casteism

Any society, at any point of time has divisions - read some of the letters to the editors of major Pakistani newspapers, for example, and you will find people blaming the army and the bureacracy, the mullahs and the greedy traders/ industrialists for most of the 'evils of the Pak society'. In a sense, this also indicates the various groups in the society - the priestly ones, the 'rulers', the traders and the rest. Casteism's origins are the same.

While in the modern day things have changed a lot - more in the developed societies than in the third world - with little opportunities to move out of the villages, a son typically took after the trade of the father. While the existence of various groups above is unavoidable, there is no automatic 'hereditary' factor in the modern day. But that was the realistic path centuries ago - in all societies. Think of the trade guilds in Europe as late as the 15-17th centuries. We don't know for sure that castes in the initial stages were hereditary. While in practice it is extremely likely to have been hereditary, some texts also stay that one's caste was defined by what he actually did.

The various castes in a village lived AND interacted with each other because most requirements were met from within the village - from each of the trade guilds. A farmer needs a potter and a cobbler and vice-versa. Untouchability was a later phenomenon when certain professions were seen to be less important or more 'impure' than others. Toilet cleaners, for example, did not exist in a situation where toilets simply did not exist.

With similar lifestyles, people married within their castes

Manu, quoted earlier, was simply one who codified the then existing practices. He was not a god or messenger.

While the now obnoxious practices are mentioned, seldom does one talk about what manu mentions about the duties of various groups of people. I haven't read it, but this is what I have heard.

A brahmin, for example (I choose this because he is supposed to have got the best end of everything), could do only six things - beg for alms and give away alms; learn and teach; seek advise and provide advise. A brahmin was not supposed to hold property; he was to seek alms just sufficient to fill half his stomach; he could not even hoard alms for the next meal. And worse, if another alms-seeker were to beg him before he had partaken of his meal, he was supposed to give it away and go hungry.

Similarly, different duties were mentioned for different castes. Sometimes, the fact that manu prescribes different punishments for different castes is highlighted. We all know that there is Law and then there is Justice. Most of us would agree that the law should be the same for everybody. But intutively, we consider the same punishment for a man stealing to feed his family as for another who does it for say, boozing or to show off as something that is blatantly unfair.

Now consider the punishment for a brahmin who steals. The king was supposed to let the brahmin go free. This could be considered extremely discriminatory. But one interpretation is this: if a brahmin who was supposed to follow the 6 things above was forced to steal, it was an extremely negative comment on the king himself - that he has let his society to such a pass that a brahmin could not even get alms to feed half his stomach and had to steal.

Re: Hinduism and caste…

Hinduism needs a reformation, whereby the Dalits and Sudra’s put the Brahmin’s in their place, and remove such extremist teachings from their religion.

Re: Hinduism and caste…

Infinite Castes and sub – Castes:
According to a survey undertaken by the Anthropological Survey of India during 1985-92, those who are called Hindu are divided among 2,800 unique communities. The so-called low-caste Hindus are officially divided into three broad groups, namely Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and Other Backward Classes. According to this survey, these groups are subdivided into 450, 461, and 766 distinct communities respectively.

The great distinctions of caste are to be maintained not only in the earthly life, but also after death. According to Markandeya Purana, after death, the virtuous Brahman goes to the abode of Brahma, the good Kshatriya to that of Indra, the worthy Vashya to that of the Maruts, and the dutiful Sudra to that of the Gandharvas. Apparently, the Untouchable (Dalit) does not deserve any place in any heaven, may be because of his untouchability.

Caste Determines Duty:

In Hindu community, the basic duty of every individual is determined by his caste. The Brahman is the rightful possessor of the Veda and is the chief of the whole creation. He has the exclusive right to become a priest. It is through his benevolence that other mortals enjoy life.

It is clearly mentioned in the Gita, as quoted under the topic, Gita. We will now see what the Hindu Book of Law, the Manu Smriti, has to say about the duties based upon castes.

Manu Smriti says in Ch.1 Vv. 88-91

The six duties of a Brahmin are : Study, teach, performing ritual *Yagna for self and for others (mind you, they make fortunes out of it!), giving and accepting alms.

**The duties of a Kshatriya are **: Study during *Brahmacharya *(bachelorhood), perform rituals like Yagna give charity, rule efficiently, maintain good conduct and abstain from intoxicants.

The duties of a vaishya are: Study Vedas, perform rituals like, Yagna, give charity, maintain cattle, sell milk and other products, carry out agriculture, take usury, on loans.

The duties of the Sudra are: The Lord orders that a Sudra has to simply obey and serve the above three castes without any feeling of resentment.” EXPRESSED IN THE SIMPLEST MANNER! ISN’T IT?

And be not surprised to see that a Brahmin is being ordered to give something, instead of taking something. As a matter of fact, the same Manu Smriti mentions in Chapter 11 that **‘Only a Brahmin is entitled to accept the alms!’ **That means, the wealth of a Brahmin can never reach a non – Brahmin but, the wealth of the non – Brahmins can always reach a Brahmin.

However, the Brahmins have been generous in exempting a Sudra from giving alms. This is due to the sympathy that a Sudra however, can possess NOTHING!

The Khsatriya is described as the dispenser of justice, particularly as the one whose duty it is to punish law-breakers; he exercises the civil power and to his tender mercies the Brahmans could hand over law- breakers. He has to see that the various castes attend to their prescribed duties; but in doing this work he must abide by the decisions of the Brahmans.

**The Vaishya **comprises the merchant, the agriculturist, and the keeper of cattle. His chief work is keeping cattle and lending money on interest.

The Sudra has been created to serve the other three castes (i.e., the fair-skinned Aryans). He is spoken of as a slave, his property, as well as his person, being at the disposal of his master.

The Dalit is to perform the most unpleasant tasks: cleaning lavatories, carrying night soil, skinning carcasses, blacksmithes and making footwear.

Re: Hinduism and caste...

lahore were you dalit or brahmin before conversion?

Re: Hinduism and caste...

^ I am a Muslim Alhamdilillah, by birth. My last 11 generations starting from Delhi are Muslim Alhamdulillah.... And Before that 11 th generation,** our ancestors were Rajput Hindus** before converstion related somehow to Pirthvi Raj Chohan. Till today, our last name contains CHOHAN

Kiya bola

Waisey how did you like that all information????? What about you, are you a Dalit or Brahmin BY BIRTH........

Re: Hinduism and caste…

i like rajputs. i feel guilty i am not dalit