Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
In old times a son of a Shudra can be a Brahmin, and vice-versa. So there was no problem of a Brahmin marrying a Shudra as there was compatibility between the two. You are right, politically a lot of work has been done to dilute the caste barriers but mentally it has not yet decreased too much. It has been such a age old practice that it will definitely take time for mental barriers to break down completely.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Caste was much different from occupation. Caste was a tribal entity. So Brahmins belonged a certain ethnic class. Whereas most priests happened to be Brahmins at one point. This sorta amalgamated the definition of Brahmin into a narrow profession-based definition. Over the course of time, it became a birth-based affiliation.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
OK,give me some examples from ancient period when people from one cast crossed over to another one, as well some examples of intercast marriages if such really took place.
I want to know if we do not really find excuses in Manu.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Any person who is involved in giving Knowledge without getting any money in return is a Brahman.
In the present day, everyone is a Shudra (mostly workers)
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Anjjan, the known history of India is only 2500-3000 years old. No one knows when Krishna was born or when Gita was composed. Although, Kaliyuga is said to have started at the end of Mahabharat, thus putting the composition of Gita around 3000 B.C. This is what is stated in the Gita and thus I believe this was how the society worked at that time, but I personally am unaware of any such example.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
I can think of a few:
Most tales in epics revolve around kings and holy men (Kshathrias and Brahmins) - hence you come across cases of transitions between the two. There are fewer tales / references to Vysyas and Sudras which could be why we don’t hear too much about them.
a very common misconception is the mis up between sudras and those Gandhi called Harijans - Sudras have a caste; I think Harijans were the casteless and hence untouchable - people who committed the worst kinds of sins I believe were rendered casteless - sort of excommuniation. In later years all this mutated into the generic umbrella of casteism and untouchability
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Surya, Atlantis, I asked if anyone crossed over to another cast as per the job characteristics. I think no one. What for we bash Manu who most probably only compiled the cast phenomenon?
So, I come back to original question.
Is Hindu religion tolerant towards untouchables? Can a Brahmin have food willingly with an untouchable at one table?
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Does anybody mind if I answer ?
Lord Krishna as saying, in response to the question— “How is Varna (social order) determined?”
"Birth is not the cause, my friend; it is virtues which are the cause of auspiciousness. Even a candala observing the vow is considered a brahmana by the gods".
A most forceful of all is Sri Krishna’s statement
The devotees of the Lord are not Shudras; Shudras are they who have no faith in the Lord whichever be their caste. A wise man should not slight even an outcaste if he is devoted to the Lord; he who looks down on him will fall into hell." - Mahabharata
"There is no superior caste. The Universe is the work of the Immense Being. The beings created by him were only divided into castes according to their aptitude."* - *Mahabharata, Shanti Parva
***The author of one of the hymns of the RigVeda says: " I am a composer of hymns, my father is a physician, my mother grinds corn on a stone. We are all engaged in different occupations." ***
The Adishankara had stated that by birth every human being is a Shudra. It is by education and upbringing that he or she becomes ‘twice born’, that is, a Dwija. The Upanishads clearly that the soul, whether of a Brahmin or a Chandal, is divine.
**Sage Vyasa, a Brahmin sage and the most revered author of the major Hindu scriptures, was the son of Satyavati, a low caste woman. Vyasa’s father, Sage Parasara, had fallen in love with Satyavati, a fisherwoman, and had married her. Vyasa’s deep knowledge of the Vedas later determined the caste of Vyasa as Brahmin sage, and not his birth to a low caste-woman.
Sage Aitareya, who wrote the Aitareya Upanishad and was born of a Shudra woman.
Rishi Parashar, the famous law-giver was the son of a Chandala, the lowest of the Sudras.
Rishi Vasishta was the son of a prostitute, but honored as a sage.
Sage Vidura, a Brahmin sage who gave religious instruction to Kind Dhritarashtra, was born to a low caste woman servant of the palace. His caste as a Brahmin sage was determined on the basis of his wisdom and knowledge of Dharma Shastras (scriptures).
The Kauravas and Pandavas were the descendants of Satyavati, a low caste fisher-woman.In spite of this mixed heredity, the Kauravas and Pandavas were known as Kshatriyas on the basis of their occupation. .
Chandragupta Maurya was from the Muria tribe, which used to collect peacock (mor) feathers.
Saint Thiruvalluvar who wrote **Thirukural **was only a weaver. Other saints were adored including **Kabir, Sura Dasa, Ram Dasa **and **Tukaram **came from the humblest class of Hindu society.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Anjann, like Atlantis pointed out Valmiki and Vishwamitra are two such examples of people who became brahmin rishis irrespective of their birth. Regarding your other question, untouchability is not mentioned in Hinduism, it is a social phenomenon, which started at some point in time and though it is not practised anymore, mental barriers still exist in some places and some people may not be comfortable still with eating together.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Dear Surya, I think no one has ever crossed over to another cast. Balmiki, I think was a dacoit, became a saint and compiled Ramayana, but was he never known as a Brahmin? Vishwamitra controversy is different, already an upper cast saint, warrior, frequent visitor to elite class, becomes a Brahmin, does not justify that upper casts were/ are tolerant towards untouchables.
As per the reply of Rex, it seems that the controversy over cast system is much older and ancient prior to Manu.
Ok, Next you tell me why we Hindus are so much intolerant towards women?
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Hindus were never intolerant towards women. In the pre-Vedic period, women were equal partners with the grihapati (or head of family). But foreign invasions and cultural changes altered some of the attitudes of Hindus. In fact the "ghunghat" was introduced only after the Muslim (Turk and Afghan) invasions. No scripture calls for inequal treatment of women in Hinduism.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
I am a hindu, and though i dont know as much history as surya does, i cant help myself from putting my two bits in!
Regarding brahmins not eating with people of lower caste, i think that is in the past now. Seriously in India today, no one checks the caste of the person sitting next to him/her in a restaurant or train or anywhere else. In fact the only place where your caste plays a role is while filling application forms for college admissions or government jobs!
Women have been historically mistreated in south asia, and it has nothing to do with hinduism. In fact among the nair society in kerala along with the khasis of meghalaya, the system is matriarchal. Women are considered the head of the family. In any case hinduism as a religion makes no distinction between sexes, there are equal numbers of female deities as there are male.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
The biggest problem with understanding hinduism comes from the blurring of the line between religion and culture. It is common to hear in india that hinduism is not a religion but a culture. To begin with, it is believed that the word "hindu" was first used to describe someone who lived in the indus valley. Hindus do not have a religious book, the closest we have to something like that is the gita (which is not a comprehensive guide to hinduism, unlike the quran or the bible). Most hindus have religious beliefs, but those beliefs can vary hugely between different regions. Religious belief in India evolved over thousands of years, sometimes independantly in different regions. As time passed, different stories got added to the religious history adding more gods or deities. Just think of it as though hindus believed in one god, who existed in various forms and did lots of things at different times. This has resulted in considerable heterogeneity in beliefs. I pray to my own "hindu" god, but i honestly don't know why i say that i am a hindu! I dont know what makes a hindu, I doubt any hindu does. I seriously think it was an act of history. The people of south asia who did not convert to islam, christianity, buddhism, jainism, sikhism etc are now called hindus.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Anjjan, how are Hindus intolerant towards women. Dowry exist in some states in North central India, and I am unaware of how it started. Also women of all religions suffer the same problems in those states. These archaic customs are generally seen in rural and semi-urban townships mainly because of high rate of illiteracy among the population.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Dear Shankar, let us not start the controversy how and when the name ‘Hindu’ is started. Today our entity is known as ‘Hindus’ and we have to accept it.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Surya, Do we respect our women? Are we Hindus really tolerant towards women?
In Mahabharata Draupadi was put up at stake in chess. She was raped, or what we say that Dushaasan removed her cloths at Kaurav Sabha. There was no one at Kaurav Sabha to raise arms against this action of Dusaashan, and Pandaves remained quite during the whole episode, they showed the utter nature of coward ness on the pretext of chess rules, they called it ‘maryada’.
No ‘maryada’ can be superior to the respect of a lady.
The same Draupadi incidents are repeated in many villages of India near about everyday, especially against women from untouchables.
Do you find any difference between the incidents of Draupady insult and Phulan Devi naked parade?
Rama asked Sita to leave, after coming back to power. If he really loved or respected Sita, he should have given up power to support her after he came across some rumors.
So, I think these two incidents put up a seal on the thinking process of future generations.
What is our respect to household ladies? At religious festivals we touch feet of our elder ladies and for rest of the year they spend at kitchen corners.
And most of all, do we offer seat to women in public transport especially in north India?
(For your information this practice is very common in Europe, and is a sign of culture.)
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
I have a few more questions about Hinduism.
Today I was watching a lecture by brother Zakr Naik, in which he talked about prophecies which were reported in some hindu scriptures, and he quoted them, the book the chapter and the page number (none of which I remember), and said how they clearly described the prophet Mohammad (PBUH). Some examples he quoted from the book were "he will be circumcised","an immigrant","a camel rider","one who praises and is praised (which translates into Ahmed in arabic)".
Now as I said I don't remember the book names, I wish I did. But I want to ask whether any of the hindu guppies here have ever come across these prophecies, and what are your thoughts on it.
Brother Zakr Naik went in great detail, and I'm looking around for the recording of the lecture, but for now I would like to know the thoughts of all the hindu members on the mentioning of the Prophet in hindu scriptures.
Thank You, I'm only looking for serious answers.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
I've never heard of anything like that. Must be an arabic edition
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
Nope the scriptures were all in sanskrit, and as I said only serious answers please.
edit:
Also I forgot to mention that in these scriptures (the GOD almighty) Ishwar (sorry about the spelling) was describing the chosen one.
Re: Hinduism 101: A crash course in the ancient faith
I am sorry mirza_sahib, I haven't heard of anything like that. But as you know, hindu culture has numerous scriptures and even the most learned of all priests may not be aware of all of them.