Is there some story about Herod the Elder and slaughtering of every circumsized baby under 2, that gets commemorated by a religious group? Anyone know anything about this story?
Re: Herod the Elder
no
Re: Herod the Elder
Herod the Great killed babies under 2 years in the Bethlehem district when Jesus was born as told in the New testament. Is this what you refer to?
Re: Herod the Elder
Herod the Great killed babies under 2 years in the Bethlehem district when Jesus was born as told in the New testament. Is this what you refer to?
more patterns...
Re: Herod the Elder
Yes, that's the story. Is this a story that muslims believe as well? I've never heard of it told with regards to Jesus.
And do Christians or Jews celebrate him??
Re: Herod the Elder
Yes, that's the story. Is this a story that muslims believe as well? I've never heard of it told with regards to Jesus.
And do Christians or Jews celebrate him??
Herod was known for his ambitious architectural accomplishments. the "Western wall" of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem is all that is left of the great tample he had built. He is not considered very highly among christians... Monophysite Sabians hated him with a passion for obvious reasons.
Re: Herod the Elder
He was jewish?
Re: Herod the Elder
He was jewish?
In a matter of speaking, although he was not really liked by the more conservative Jews; go figure.
Plus his son's role in the alleged execution of John the Baptist has earned the Herodian dynasty much the same reputation as that of the Sufyaanid Umayyads: A striking parallel i.e. Mu'aawiyah's son Yazid's alleged execution of the Governer and General, (i.e. Imam) Hussain.
Re: Herod the Elder
Some churches commemorate the day but on no large scale. No Jews commemorate the day. Bethlehem was a small village at the time and only a small number of children might have been killed.
Herod's parents were from Arabian descent. For some reason he choose to follow the Jewish religion, maybe to be more acceptable to his subjects.
Re: Herod the Elder
Some churches commemorate the day but on no large scale. No Jews commemorate the day. Bethlehem was a small village at the time and only a small number of children might have been killed.
Herod's parents were from Arabian descent. For some reason he choose to follow the Jewish religion, maybe to be more acceptable to his subjects.
This is interesting!! I thought that only Nabataeans were influencial Arabs during that time in that region. Do you have any more information? I am curious if there is a connection between the names Haruudas (transliterated Hebrew) and Aritas (translited Greek for the Arabic Haarith) who is spoken of in several Arabian inscriptions. The connection in the names may reveal that Herod could have been an Arab from a competing tribe (Thamudic or Safaitic who used the definite artical h' instead of al).
Re: Herod the Elder
Do you have any more information? I am curious if there is a connection between the names Haruudas (transliterated Hebrew) and Aritas (translited Greek for the Arabic Haarith) who is spoken of in several Arabian inscriptions. The connection in the names may reveal that Herod could have been an Arab from a competing tribe (Thamudic or Safaitic who used the definite artical h' instead of al).
I don't know of the connection.
Herod's father, Herod Antipas, was an Edomite from the region of the Dead Sea to Gulf of Aqaba while his mother was from Petra in South-West Jordan (Nabataean Kingdom).
Re: Herod the Elder
I don't know of the connection.
Herod's father, Herod Antipas, was an Edomite from the region of the Dead Sea to Gulf of Aqaba while his mother was from Petra in South-West Jordan (Nabataean Kingdom).
Yep this sure falls into place then. Wow!
Re: Herod the Elder
I don't know of the connection.
Herod's father, Herod Antipas, was an Edomite from the region of the Dead Sea to Gulf of Aqaba while his mother was from Petra in South-West Jordan (Nabataean Kingdom).
BTW, I think you meant Antipas' father, Herod the Great... and not the other way around.
Re: Herod the Elder
BTW, I think you meant Antipas' father, Herod the Great... and not the other way around.
Pardon, my mistake :)
Re: Herod the Elder
This is interesting!! I thought that only Nabataeans were influencial Arabs during that time in that region. Do you have any more information? I am curious if there is a connection between the names Haruudas (transliterated Hebrew) and Aritas (translited Greek for the Arabic Haarith) who is spoken of in several Arabian inscriptions. The connection in the names may reveal that Herod could have been an Arab from a competing tribe (Thamudic or Safaitic who used the definite artical h' instead of al).
Can you tell us more about this and point to some sources? Because this sounds very very interesting!
Re: Herod the Elder
Can you tell us more about this and point to some sources? Because this sounds very very interesting!
From what I understand, proper names are usually distorted in their pronounciation when they undergo a linguistic transformation.
The name Herod is an English contraption of the actual name (or so it was written in Hebrew) HRDS and pronounced Haruudas. However, most 4 lettered roots in Semitic languages come from non-Semitic sources (like FRDS/Firdous is from the Avistan Pardes/Paradus which may have been a Hellenized form of another word).
Nabataeans and most North Western Arabs were highly influenced by Greek and Latin culture and often Hellenized their names. The name Aritas is actualy from the Arabic Haarith... I am now quite certain that the actual meaning also comes into play here: Haarith means Bearer/Collector of Property and so forth...
The "as" in Aritas comes from Latinization, and the Arabic Haa (emphatic sound) becomes silent. Couple that with linguistic pollution... If you look at the theory I presented about Herod's Edomite/Thamudic/Safaitic origin, then the softer "Dal" in Harrudas is actually a corruption of Greek "Theta", which is inturn a corruption of the Arabic "Thaa", and the softer "Ha" is the definite artical of the Thamudic and Hebrew dialect, the same way "al" is the definite artical of Arabic. The Thamudic translation of Harudas would probably be "The Bearer/Collector of Property", a title fit for a king... moreover, it would have been taken as a proper noun and directly transliterated into Hebrew (if it was a Hebrew word, the "Ha" would not have been imported as part of the name itself but rather with the punctuation) and then Anglicized to Herod.
Re: Herod the Elder
So if no one has objection to this theory, I'd like to condense my ideas in the following tabs:
The temple that today's religious Jewish circles revere and at the "Western Wall" they stand and chant for the return of the "MaSheeKh", was actually built by an Edomite/Aadami/Arab. Quite interestingly, most of Central and Southern Arabia was Jewish and spoke Arabic. It is ironic that Arabs and Jews hate each other as much as they do today, even when their pasts are invariably linked to such an intimacy.
The fact that John the Baptist is referred to as being highly against Herod's second marriage and reminding him of the covenant with God, despite Herod being non-Hebrew, is a sign that Judaeism is not a nationalist/ethnic religion... Baptism was actually practiced among Jews for "purifying" CONVERTS!! YHWH, then, is NOT a tribal God.
It is also interesting that Jesus (who was Baptised by John) MAY have been an Essene, who rejected the stories of the Old Testament by saying that the message in it is true, but the book has been corrupted with stories borrowed from other pagan cultures.
Arabs were much more influential and powerful than we have been led to believe... Perhaps, many clues about Trade, Knowledge of Star-based Navigation, and Seafairing in the Quran point to such possibilities, but they are yet overlooked in favour of Islamic tradition.
Re: Herod the Elder
From what I understand, proper names are usually distorted in their pronounciation when they undergo a linguistic transformation.
Wow. Just… Wow. That’s absolutely amazing. In fact, it makes me think of the stories of Moses as an actual Egyptian, considering the name ‘Mose’ is an Egyptian word for ‘son’, such as Tuthmose or Kamose (son of the Spirit, i.e. son of God). Historian David Ullian came to the conclusion that ‘Moses’ was simply a title (a bit like ‘Christ’) which people ended up turning into a name. Once he emancipated the Israelites from Egypt they took him as their leader, used his title, and in time lost his original name.
Re: Herod the Elder
Wow. Just… Wow. That’s absolutely amazing. In fact, it makes me think of the stories of Moses as an actual Egyptian, considering the name ‘Mose’ is an Egyptian word for ‘son’, such as Tuthmose or Kamose (son of the Spirit, i.e. son of God). Historian David Ullian came to the conclusion that ‘Moses’ was simply a title (a bit like ‘Christ’) which people ended up turning into a name. Once he emancipated the Israelites from Egypt they took him as their leader, used his title, and in time lost his original name.
Peace m249boost
This is a nice thread and I think your post will need to be ratified by the expert (hyponotix-2000) but I think your theory is quite plausible. In Islam we believe that Musa (AS) was raised by Egyptians in the household of the Pharaoh, so they could have named him or given him a title which was noticeably Egyptian.
The bigger picture here reveals that Allah (SWT) cannot be bound by any one language.
Hyponotix-2000 has a compatible theory with regards to the Judiac mission. According to Islam we believe that Jews were the chosen people, chosen to be the examples to benchmark humanity against, so it therefore means that conversions could be possible, rather plausible. It so turned out that they began to re-engineer the meaning of the words 'chosen people' and turned it into a race thing that their race is the only one that is pure and therefore exempt from requirement and here to rule over other races. This misnoma led to the coming of Jesus (AS) to mould the Jews back towards the correct understanding.
Again the followers of Christ (AS) began their mission to propagate, but some did so with a twist and took the message of Christ (AS) and encouraged people to leave the law entirely passing it off as 'out-of-date'.
Of course the Christians would have a different conclusion. I had heard that the word firdaus is linked liguistically with the term we know today as Paradise. So I can confirm that too.
Keep up the conversation perhaps more can be uncovered here.
Re: Herod the Elder
Peace bro,
This is a nice thread and I think your post will need to be ratified by the expert (hyponotix-2000) but I think your theory is quite plausible.
Bro your post is most humbling. I am no expert, just learning... but consider m249boost's post ratified.
In Islam we believe that Musa (AS) was raised by Egyptians in the household of the Pharaoh, so they could have named him or given him a title which was noticeably Egyptian.
Yes this is correct. I too believe that the name "Mose" was not an Israelite name and was imported from Egyptian. The tradition of the person ascociated with the name Moses is a romanticized one that may have been written down after the end of the second exile (i.e. from Babylon) which the returning Jewish people could have retained in their stories that became corrupted with addition of Assyrian and Babylonian myths during the exile. So the rewritten book took the form of "Tauraah", as opposed to the original Charter/Law, you might have guessed it, "Toor". This may also explain why the mention of personalities (prophets) in the Quran is so generalized and scarce. Details do not and will never matter and are only meant to propagate confusion (which btw is the main theme of al-Baqrah). The underlying message is more important than the stories; or so dictates my understanding.
The bigger picture here reveals that Allah (SWT) cannot be bound by any one language.
Correct!
Hyponotix-2000 has a compatible theory with regards to the Judiac mission. According to Islam we believe that Jews were the chosen people, chosen to be the examples to benchmark humanity against, so it therefore means that conversions could be possible, rather plausible.
Yes in fact the name "Yahood" as transliterated even in Arabic would be close to the root HDY, or more correctly "those who were guided".
Again the followers of Christ (AS) began their mission to propagate, but some did so with a twist and took the message of Christ (AS) and encouraged people to leave the law entirely passing it off...
Usually, that is the way it goes :)
Of course the Christians would have a different conclusion. I had heard that the word firdaus is linked liguistically with the term we know today as Paradise. So I can confirm that too.
Yes, but it is the other way around. Paradise is from the Latin Para-disus, which comes from the Avistan Perdas, the same word from which Firdous was taken via Assyrian Aramaic. The actual word means "The Land Beyond"...
I think the Sanskrit "Pardais" (as in Dais, Pardais) has captured this very well.
Small world :)
I hope more people come with input on these subjects...