Heres' my question

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

If I am not a perfect muslim, does it make sense for me to go out researching the ‘deficiencies’ of other religions?
Doesnt it make more sense for me to stick with my beliefs, and try to better myself in those?
Can I prove Islam to be superior to some other religion by degrading that religion, rather than highlighting Islam itself?
Should my objective be to humiliate non-muslims (which is impossible) rather than show them what Islam is about and let them decide for themselves?

And then amongst the different muslim sects, do i have a God-given right over Islam compared to any other sect? How do i justify that?
Should I try to build my relationship with muslims from all sects and countries based on our common beliefs or should i make a mockery out of their beliefs, enabling onlooking non-muslims to laugh at us both?
If “well known ulemas” and “learned scholars” to this day have not been able to resolve the differences between different sects, do I expect to get it done with one post?
Cant we just be civil to each other and not make a mockery of Islam?

2

Voicing your frustations eh?

Here’s a story i heard once…Four men entered a mosque and each busied himself in salah, humbly prostrating before Allah. Each one said the “Allahu Akbar” after first having made his intention, and began to pray with humility. Meanwhile the Muezzin came in and gave the call to salah. The first man blurted out to the Muezzin, “Are you calling to the prayer? Is it the right time?” The second spoke on the spur of the moment, “You have wasted your salah by speaking during prayers.” The third retorted, “Why did YOU speak? Tell yourself how to behave!” The fourth mumbled, “Praise be to Allah! I wasn’t a party to their arguments.” Thus all the four broke their salat and wasted it. The fault-finders went more astray than the one who actually made the orginal mistake.

So i guess u could say the moral of this story is to correct yourself before correcting others.

But more in keeping with the topic, yes agree with you that degrading/humiliating other religions sects is not right, its not the right way at all. I mean if u want to pursue da’wah..if u want to bring people to islam, u cannot win them over by offending them, by crushing what they already know…even if its not right, thats for them to decide. U can only show them, by your actions, by your thoughts, by your speech…but u can’t force them thats up to the individual. And its their choice, u do not have to respect their choice, but u still have to respect them, and the fact that they made their own choice. And hey, by respect i don’t mean the oohing and awwing type(Just making sure

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

) I mean respect in the way that u do not hmmm…just that u respect the fact that they made their choice, i hope that makes sense. Here are some verses from the Qu’ran…

*“Invite to the Way of your Lord (Islam) with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.”(16:125)

“Let there arise out of you a group of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining al-ma`roof * and forbidding al-Munkar [polytheism and disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden]. And it is they who are successful.”(3:104)*

I mean when we invite people to islam, it should be with kindness, gentleness, honesty, knowledge, and most of all patience. In surah al-Imran..Allah swt mentions in/with respect to the Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wasalaam, “And by the Mercy of Allah, you dealt with them kindly. And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have certainly broken away from you…” (3-159); i mean if u read the verse carefully u will see that even the Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wasalaam, the best of mankind, would have failed, as Allah has told us, without being kind and gentle. Yet again, if u look at the verse the translation of the verse from surah an-nahl (16-125) u’ll see that Allah swt commands the believers to invite people with wisdom and fair exhortation.

Okay i think thats enough typing for now wry smile I’m out, Fee AmaanAllah.*

3

Akif,

Very nice post. If only a larger group of people could spend some time reflecting on the same questions.

4

Muzena Mause,

Kaise hoo? London Kaisa Laga? Kay Karti hoo?

Discussing religion or interfaith is a job of highly intellectual people not for Akif,you or Me.

Every time we open our mouth we polute air, we demonstrate our ignorance of the subject.

It is better not to learn rather than learning from ignorent people, and every time we see that

5

Actually akif this is part of our paki-desi outlook, so called PMS - Pakistani Mentality Syndrome. From a paanwla to an elite, all can equally speak at length on religion, politics and health issues. Speaking of faith, individually everyone thinks that it’s our possession and we are the only sincere rulers. The rest are damn craps.

Desolately, the nation is governed chiefly by mazars and its keepers rather than living and honest souls. We have given our reins to the people who had hardly crossed 5th grade and were appointed on us as ulemas and hukmraans. All this frustration what we are perceive today is not cooked in one day. It’s a time dependent process, ages have poisoned this broth. Easily we can see the divergence in tahzeeb-o-tamadum of our fathers era and ours, so how can be this 1400 years old philosophy remains faultless?.

Its true when all these philosophers and scholars has failed in brining this scattered ummah under one roof, then how can an individual bring them together by one post.

Holy Prophet when first introduced the Islam, the arabs didn’t accepted him because of his claim, but because of his truthful and honest inner personality. Do we possess those moral skills? Nay, time has tainted our blood with arrogance, self-esteem, intolerance and fanatism. And now we are passing this trait to our next generations.

May Allah bless us.

“wal lazeena jahadu fena lanahde yanna hum subolana wa in nal la ha lama almohsayneen… And as for those who strive to meet US - WE will, surely, guide them in OUR ways. And, verily, ALLAH is with those who do good.”......

6

First of all, nice post, nothing wrong with it. Don't take my post as offensive or dysphemistic please. I leave it to you to understand it. I hope you won't question anything, most of it is from quran.

Before i even write something about your post, please answer these question:

What would you do if you see non-muslims insulting prophet Mohammad(pbuh), making up their own verses from quran and writing them, creating lies against the religion of Islam; what would you do my friend?

Would you sit there and worry about their rights? Saying if i confront them, I might violate their rights? Would you worry about your own religion, and respect of Prophet, you will ask them to stop their hideous acts!
or
Would you try to prove them wrong, and tell them that verses they have made are not from quran and they are creating lies in islam?

Please some verses from quran:
"O believers, whosoever of you turns from his religion, Allah will assuredly bring a people He loves, and who love Him, humble towards the believers, disdainful towards the unbelievers, men who struggle in the path of Allah, not fearing the reproach of any reproacher. That is Allah's bounty; He gives it unto whom He will." [Qur'ân., 5:54]

Leave is given to those who are fought because they were wronged - surely Allah is able to help them - who were expelled from their habitations without right, except that they say 'Our Lord is Allah.' Had Allah not driven back the people, some by the means of others, there would had been destroyed cloisters and churches, oratories and masjids, wherein Allah's name is much mentioned. Assuredly Allah will help him who helps Him - surely Allah is all-strong, all-mighty - who, if We establish them in the land, perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and bid to honour, and forbid dishonour; and unto Allah belongs the issue of all affairs."
[Qur'an., 22:39-41]

"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not: Allah loves not the transgressors." [The Qur'an, 2:190]

Some hadiths:

In the Saheeh of al-Bukhaaree as well as the Saheeh of Muslim it is reported on the authority of 'Alee ibn Abee- Taalib, (radiallaahu'anhu), that he said: "I have heard Rasulullaah (salallaahu'alayheewasallam), saying: 'Towards the end of time a group will emerge, young of age and simple of minds, who will speak the most beautiful words, but whose faith does not go deeper than their throats. They will abandon the religion just like an arrow pierces and then abandons a game animal. Wherever you will find them you must kill them since those who kill them will be rewarded on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Muslim has reported that 'Alee, (radiallaahu'anhu), said: "I have heard Rasulullaah (salallaahu'alayheewasallam), saying: 'A group of people will emerge from amongst my community, who will recite the Qur'an [very well]. Your recitation is nothing compared to theirs. Likewise your way of performing Salaah and your way of fasting are nothing compared with theirs. They will recite the Qur'an believing that it [text] supports them, whereas [in reality] it condemns them. Their recitation does not go deeper than their collarbones. They will abandon the religion just like an arrow pierces and then abandons a game animal. If the army that reaches them would know how much [reward] the Prophet has promised them, they would rely on this deed [alone and not worry about other good deeds]."

"They will fight the people of faith and leave the idolaters. If I live long enough to meet them, I shall kill them in the manner the tribe of 'Aad was killed." reported by Abu Sa'eed!

Three things that allah has ordained and resemble Jihad in the cause of Allah.
1. With the heart (intentions or feelings),
2. With the hand (weapons, etc.),
3. With the tongue (speeches, etc., in the Cause of Allah (s.w.t)

If you think nothing will change anything, why do you come participate and waste your time? According to Gupshup & Co. thousands of people read gupshup to get information. I believe, the information about Islam, Mohammad(pbuh) should be the correct!

They say they have "zero-tolerance" policy but when that policy takes effect, it takes effect on the wrong side of the course. Thats how blind they are here. This hadith proves it. "They will fight the people of faith and leave the idolaters. If I live long enough to meet them, I shall kill them in the manner the tribe of 'Aad was killed." reported by Abu Sa'eed!

Qaum mazhib se hai, mazhib jo nahi, tum be nahi
Jazb-e ba'hum jo nahi, mehfil-e anjum be nahi

Jin ko ata nahi duniyan main koe fun wo TUM ho
Nahi jis qaum ko parwane nashemeen, tum ho
Bejliyaan jis main hoon assoNwaa, wo harmaain tum ho
Beej khatey hain jo aslaaf ke, muddfun tum ho

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 19, 2000).]

7

*What would you do if you see non-muslims insulting prophet Mohammad(pbuh), making up their own verses from quran and writing them, creating lies against the religion of Islam; what would you do my friend? *

Like it or not, there are other religions in this world, apart from Islam. And if you take a moment out of your precious time and put yourself in their shoes, you will realize that they think the same of Islam as you think of them. So if you are not going to stop berating and degrading other religions and beliefs, how do you expect the same of them? If you chalk up a list of "falsehoods" about some other religion, then to the members of that religion, your list is just as much of a hogwash as is theirs to you. What exactly are you accomplishing by doing that other than making a mockery of yourself and Muslims, since you claim to represent the whole Muslim ummah.

What some non muslim, or even a muslim, says about Islam, doesnt do a thing for Allah SWT. Allah SWT is looking at your deeds, at the huqooq Allah that you fulfill towards Him, and the huqooqul Ibaad that you fulfil towards other human beings. And mind you, either/or is not enough. You have to fulfil both. If someone verbally degrades Islam, or Muslims, or the Prophet SAW, it doesnt make a dent in the facts. You can go out lashing as hard as you wish, and all you will get it a lashing right back, because one who is genuinely interested in learning about Islam, wont resort to degrading or name calling. So if u see such a thing, and resort in the same manner, it will only degrade Islam further in the eyes of the onlookers. That is the reason why Muslims are so looked down upon across the world.

Allah SWT has made a general statement of Muslims regarding their status in this world, and at another point. Allah SWT has also said that noone has the ability to give anyone any hidayat.....Its only Allah SWT who can do that. And mind you, this ayat was sent down on Prophet SAW, when he was praying for the hidayat for his uncle Abu Talib.

And as for people cursing, and calling Prophet SAW degrading names, again, this is their way of getting attention and inciting verbal riots......and u always manage to serve their purpose, which is why they come back again and again. The Prophet SAW was pelted with stones, rained with smelly garbage, and threatened to be killed, and yet he SAW never made a single bad dua for anyone. And he did all that to create a precedence for us, his ummat. But what are we doing other than carrying the label of Islam? nothing.

If you think nothing will change anything, why do you come participate and waste your time?
I come in hopes of finding a non confrontational and informative message, but Alas, those are rarer than a blue moon.

** I believe, the information about Islam, Mohammad(pbuh) should be the correct!

They say they have "zero-tolerance" policy but when that policy takes effect, it takes effect on the wrong side of the course. Thats how blind they are here.**

Yes the information about Islam should be correct, but just give the right information if u have it, and end with it...and dont accompany it with verbal slurs that include ur recipients mother and sister in it. If u want people to be civil to you, you have to civil to them first. You cant slap a person, and then expect him to say salam to you. And then again, are u really spreading information about Islam? cause most of the time all I see is "Ahmedis exposed", "sikhism exposed", "shiaism exposed" and now "hinduism exposed". Wheres the islamic POV in these?

[This message has been edited by Akif (edited September 16, 2000).]

8

Akif i understand where you are coming from and the angle you are approaching this matter.

I would like something being done here to those who transgress and insult prophet mohammad(pbuh).
Weather insult towards allah or mohammad(pbuh) is verbal or in another form, it should be taken into account and should be delt with harshness so no one else will think of doing that again.

If you are refering to the posts i posted on ahmadies, well than what ever i posted, is from the books from the books that mirza wrote. The books were tranlated by the ahmadies, and muslim scholars did the research and found the “corruption” in mirza’s writing.
If I don’t approve of wrong and mis-information on islam, i do NOT approve of providing any wrong information on any other faith.
Its responsiblity of every muslim to spread the message of islam, in what ever means possible. Sure learn their religion, allah or mohammad(pbuh) never stoped us from getting more knowledge and education.
But at the same time we have to spread the knowledge that we have on islam to the other faiths.

They are providing false information on islam, when I provide information with evidence that that information is true, you call it slaping them.
Those who just argue here and do not listen to the other side, are just here to mess up and creat fuss nothing more. About those allah said, their hearts are locked, and they will never believe… (sorry i cant recall # of the surah)

Anyway sir, your approach to this problem is exceptable and we shouldnt be tolerating anything against our religion, Mohammad(pbuh) and Allah, and i would like something to be done, to people who do NOT provide correct information on islam(information based on QURAN and SUNNAH only!!!), as it is this site is called “official page of pakistan” it represents pakistan an country that is based on true and pure islam.

Thanks, i hope you understand.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Dr LoveLess (edited September 16, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 19, 2000).]

9

Loveless. since we are here talking about forum etiquettes for posting messages over here .it should be bore in mind than there are only two ways of sharing any opinion.

either someone can discuss the issues with reasons and suggestions in the light of respectable and acceptable behavior. or just dispatch prejudice statements from blocked brains or from similar web sites. the later will create more rifts and less conclusions.

if you read quran, the message is very clear. allah says. fazakkir in’nama anta muzakkir you shall remind .for your mission is to deliver this reminder. lasta alaehim bay musaetir. you have no power over them or you are not appointed a keeper over them. Understand, you have no power to rule others lives?

if someone turns away and disbelieves. allah says. illa man tawal la wa kafr. fa yo azzay bo hullahul azabal akbar. whoever turns away and disbelieves, allah will punish him with the greatest punishment.

so what’s your point now. Are you equal to god? do you mean to say if qadianis, or shias or agha khanis for example make their own verses or accuse sahabas or exploit the islamic teachings then they solution for that is to kill them or torture them?

what if you are wrong and the opponent is right. giv3en a choice will you accept them? if no then you have already made up your mind that what you believe in is definite and true and will not accept anyone what so ever. This will not harm anyone. actually in return you will nail your coffin with your own hands.

10

Nanga: <<<so what’s your point now. Are you equal to god? do you mean to say if qadianis, or shias or agha khanis for example make their own verses or accuse sahabas or exploit the islamic teachings then they solution for that is to kill them or torture them?

what if you are wrong and the opponent is right. giv3en a choice will you accept them? if no then you have already made up your mind that what you believe in is definite and true and will not accept anyone what so ever. This will not harm anyone. actually in return you will nail your coffin with your own hands.>>>

Nanga...I never said i am equal you God, you just made that up now. No one is turturing no one. Qanidanis are wrong and their prophet mirza never was and never will be. Do you think he was a rightuous prophet. Qandianis have put the dirt on Islam! One should do everything to prove that they are wrong and they are wrong. All I did was, to prove that they are wrong, with evidence from mirza's own books>those books were translated by Ahmadies them selves.
When you ask them to prove their prophet right, they cant do it.
I never posted anything on shiaism.

I follow quran and hadith, Quran is NEVER wrong and nor is hadith. if you think quran is wrong, well...! If they can prove them selves right, they should, but when asked they cant prove them selves right, than i have to say i am right, since no one can prove quran wrong or allah wrong, or mohammad wrong.

Hadith:
"They will fight the people of faith and leave the idolaters. If I live long enough to meet them, I shall kill them in the manner the tribe of 'Aad was killed." reported by Abu Sa'eed!

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 19, 2000).]

11

dakter. to me you seems to possess very naïve intellects with limited amount of analyzing and assessing ability.

the part you quoted above from my reply is not an independent statement itself. i hope next time when you reply to me. you will not forget to keep in mind the whole view point of the answer and not fragement the critiqe according to your understanding.

lastly if the same question is put to you. how will you prove to the non-muslim friends that mohammet.sa was a true prophet. if they are not proving that mirza was a true prophet. it doesn’t spells that they are empty handed or so. they might don’t want to waste time to your allegations and might consider it as a waste of time. even if they put their view you will not accept them because you have already made the judgment in your mind that they are false what so ever.

if your intention is only limited to degrade all other than your faith then you will not achieve anything. but if you raise the issues in a decent and acceptable manner then it might end up with something positive.

12

I would be insane if cross your stupidity line to try to explain your own post to you. and later would find NOTHING in the hay-stack like your self.

There are 100s of evidence, that mohammad is a prophet, mohammad was proven before time began. Mohammad was proven by the people before him.

When was mirza proven? When was any other prophet wana be proven? I can list 100s of evidence here about existence of allah and prohet-hood of mohammad. But what good will it do to you? You would never believe or understand.

When you ask ahmadies to prove their prophet, they can NOT do it. Know why? Because he was not a real prophet! One should expect what is logically, historicaly, ethicly, and morally correct.
Why would anyone believe in someone who just made some statment about being a prophet because someone paid him?

Allah’s challenge still remains, produce something like quran if you can? …produce one verse from quran if you are truthfull! Read quran, you will get to know things that were mentioned 1400 years ago, that you science boys are finding today. Want me to list those? Want me to list the emroyology cycle? Astronomical, navigation at sea, and many many more science stuff that allah explained to muslims first in the form of quran and you are finding those today.
If you think he was, prove it to us!

Lastly, kirey apney app se nikaalo, meri abilities ko question na karo! Kabi ye be soocha hai ke tumarey barey main loog keya sochtey hain? Kabi ye be soocha hia ke you may have those discrepencies.
Ya mu utha ke har eik ka panga le letey ho?

Please have some common sense…i hope i dont have to reply to your lame and full of exuses post again. Thanks, have a good night.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 19, 2000).]

13

[quote]
Originally posted by Dr LoveLess:
*There are 100s of evidence, that mohammad is a prophet, mohammad was proven before time began. Mohammad was proven by the people before him.
*
[/quote]

step out of your house and ask the world. only muslims know mohammet.sa was a true and greatest prophet. people outside your house don’t believe in it. got my point. or still want to try blank shots.

let me put this for you for the last time. to understand and negate others. one must read their ideology by himself and try to spend sometime with them. this will enable you to see the other side of the picture. this will also serve an important purpose. you will get a first hand info to tell them that hey this is wrong and this should be the corrected this way. This way you can pull him up towards your side. on the other hand limping on others decisions like misinformation and hate websites will not solve any problem.

take for example what this western media presents about islam. go talk to someone and you will get a similar answer. you muslims are terrorist. you marry four. you beat your wives. and so on. is islam like that? or they are spreading a false propaganda?. only you know the truth. cause you have seen it from inside out. similarly there are many websites running against islam. were they true. what if someone start pasting info from those sites without confirming them. its true in his view. only you know he is wrong. what will be your reaction? Keep in mind that he will not listen to you. cause he has not been exposed to your teachings.

anyways this is part of human behavior. that’s why every born jew for example is still a jew and will not accept anyone because he thinks hey don’t talk about your islam my religion is more senior and perfect. we are the god’s chosen people. god has blessed us with so many prophets. what about you a single illiterate prophet. and so on.

when you are in bed for sleep, for a sec think this way too.

[quote]
Originally posted by Dr LoveLess:
*Lastly, kirey apney app se nikaalo, meri abilities ko question na karo! Kabi ye be soocha hai ke tumarey barey main loog keya sochtey hain? Kabi ye be soocha hia ke you may have those discrepencies.
Ya mu utha ke har eik ka panga le letey ho?
*
[/quote]

i better go and read quran. may allah bless me and help me in respecting others. aameen

14

Oh really only muslims know?

READ THIS CAREFULLY: THE WHOLE WORLD, YOU, ME, AND EVERYONE ELSE KNOW THAT MOHAMMAD IS TRUE AND THE LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH. Its another thing that they dont WANT to believe it, out of ingnorence and stupidity and pig-headedness(zid)!

Islam does NOT teach voilence or harshness towards others, islam does NOT teach us to kill innocent people, its the media that has corrupted your mind and everyone elses. Its the fundamentalist who have made islam hard and have put disgrace on islam. Islam is easy and gentle.

Even sciencetists from the west world have done their research on quran and find it remarkably true and authentic and contains the stuff that is being true today by the modern science. you need to get out of your house and see the truth. Laterzzz…

As i said i wouldnt want to explain islam to you and later find nothing in the hay-stack…but i shall keep trying…by the command of allah something will turn up in the hay.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

Nanga are you muslim or an ABCD? Just asking for general information, nothing serious or offensive. Please do tell me. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Dr LoveLess (edited September 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited September 19, 2000).]

15

Salam-a-lekum Brother Akif,

**
Very nice post. Good unique thoughts and a realistic question u asked. Well, its so bad to see that we are ready to point fingers on others without looking into our soul, our inner soul. Islam talks about the beauty of one's inner soul, that was exactly the message of Islam and our dear Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w).
All I see these days is people saying oh you guys do this, oh you do this, I really wonder if they ever talk (or atleast think) about cleaning their filthy inner soul which is filled with hatred against every other religion, sect, race, gender. I really wonder if "instead of telling the whole world, Oh I am going to go pray or telling everybody Oh I am going to go read quran",they ever get a chance to realize why they are doing sajda (bowing down to Allah) during namaz? Or get some chance to read the translation of Quran? I wonder. I really wonder. I dont know, when I'll die but this is my heart's voice. The truth coming from deep inside my soul. I might not be here in this world but I really hope these words not only stay here on these pages but go deep into A true Muslim's soul who is searching for the truth. May Allah bless us all and gives us taufeeq to understand Islam better. May Allah guide us all to control our temper. Aameen!

**
Tears,
Humble.

16

[quote]
Originally posted by Dr LoveLess:
*READ THIS CAREFULLY: THE WHOLE WORLD, YOU, ME, AND EVERYONE ELSE KNOW THAT MOHAMMAD IS TRUE AND THE LAST PROPHET OF ALLAH.
*
[/quote]

jawaan, as i said earlier. go knock the next door and ask do they believe in mohammet.sa . he being the last prophet. do they believe islam is a true religion. let me know what they say.

if they would have believed in that today there would be only religion in the whole world.

go baby read quran and educate yourself instead of spreading hatred and nonsense in the world. and then come up with some solution to resuscitate this dying religion

[This message has been edited by nanga .]