Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as stating that ** Allah the Most High and Exalted said: I am the One, One Who does not stand in need of a partner. If anyone does anything in which he associates anyone else with Me, I shall abandon him with one whom he associates with Allah. **
reported by Muslim
Book 042, Number 7114:
clearly shows that singing “ali mola” “ya ali madad” and other nonsense is shirk. the bad part is most of us sunni muslims are guilty of singing this type of stuff. Most shia’s know where to draw the line when it comes to shirk.
anchal i dont know who feeds you info like my boss is a hindu. but u got ur sources all messed up.
i’ve never claimed to be a boss of anyone… but i’ve blamed sunni muslims for being guilty of committing shirk. which btw includes my own immediate relatives… since they all go to bari imam, listen to “ali mola” and indulge in “taveez ganda”, just because like you they arent aware of what shirk is. Even i was guilty of going to bari imam a couple of times myself. I wish i knew back then that i was committing a sin by doing that.
Thanks to Naiklarki who advised me to post ahadith… cos now we know. Atleast on the day of judgment you can’t play the “i didnt know it was shirk to do this” card anymore.
[quote]
clearly shows that singing "ali mola" "ya ali madad" and other nonsense is shirk. the bad part is most of us sunni muslims are guilty of
singing this type of stuff. Most shia's know where to draw the line when it comes to shirk.
[/quote]
I'm a Sunni, and I've never done that. They've never done it at any of the Masjids I go to. So from what I've seen, it's only a minority of Sunnis that do this kind of singing.
Mundyaa,
First off, I am a Sunni Muslim. Secondly I will be more than happy to discuss this topic with you, provided it does not turn in to a general Mud-slinging match !. I have seen many threads in the religion forum, which start off perfectly OK but then turn in to a huge mess of personal insults and insults to someones els's faith. I do not intend to engage in any mud-slinging or personal attacks. Personally I believe that anyone who is dedicated to their faith, weather he/she is a Muslim, Hindu, Jew or Christian, will not only be very hurt and offended by derogatory remarks about their faith, but are also unlikely to convert to a religion whose followers constantly engage in degrading & insulting other faiths. I am certain that in the Holy Quran, I read the passage '... And call people to way of your Lord using beautiful words & preaching'.(For those of you out there who have more knowledge of the Holy Quran than my -self, please forgive any discrepencies in the above quote, I have recalled it to the best of my knowledge.) No-one will ever convince someone else of the valididty of one faith by trashing another. If you're willing to engage in a civilized discussion, let me know, I will send a seperate reply...this one's getting a bit too long !.
asif2, yaar u havent visited any villages in punjab have you? most of the stuff that goes on in these shrines and under the flag of “pir murshad” is shirk. and sadly has little to do with Islam. the crowds i saw at bari imam and other shrines was overwhelming.
anchal, i’ll excercise my rights of not indulging in a useless conversation with u. not that i dont enjoy giving u a quality whippin, but as a testimony that im trying. now u should also try and act on what u say! thanx.
naz, in the light of the above hadith... if a muslim (sunni or shia) indulges in praying to a human (dead or alive) for his needs is shirk. i had no intention to blame sunni muslims but a majority of the folks i saw at bari imam, and other shrines in lahore, faislabad etc. are all sunni muslims.
most of the people who go to these shrines ask for help from the dead teachers of Islam who are burried at these shrines. the concept is called "murad mangna" in urdu and "mannat manana" in punjabi. When Allah has told us clearly that we should ask no one but him and him alone for help... and everything else would be shirk. then these acts clearly have no place in Islam. Agreed?
Mundyaa, you're right, I haven't been to Punjab. I live in Canada. Most of the Masjids here don't allow the singing, because of it being shirk. Anyway, they only practice the singing stuff in one Masjid as far as I know, and it's not the one I go to.
most of the people who go to these shrines ask for help from the dead teachers of Islam who are burried at these shrines. the concept is called "murad mangna" in urdu and "mannat
manana" in punjabi. When Allah has told us clearly that we should ask no one but him and him alone for help... and everything else would be shirk. then these acts clearly have no place in Islam.
Ok, here goes, I completely agree with you that we should not ask anyone for help besides Allah Taala. I also agree that to ascociate peers or partners with Allah is Kufr and would throw a person out of the realm of Islam.
My understanding of all these acts like 'Mannath Manna' or going to the shrines of Peers is that you are not asking THEM (ie the peer) for help but what you are asking for is that Allah Taalah fulfills your prayers for the SAKE of that particular peer. I think in english its known as Intersession (?). I'm sure that in the Holy Quran it is written ' among the believers all are equal except those who are more pious in the rememberance of Allah'. So basically when you go to the shrine of a peer, you're still asking Allah Taala for help, but what you're saying is that,'Oh Allah fulfill my prayers for the sake of Peer XYZ, because he was more pious than me, he was closer to you than me and he was better than me'...something to that effect.
Secondly, all these religious entities like say Peer Abdul Qadir Jilani (desendant of Hazrath Ali (R.A),had been given special powers by Allah Taala because of their conviction in Islam and the worship they did. For example, I cannot remember the name of this Peer, and this incident was well documented (although I haven't fund any documentations yet),but, basically before the partition of India & Pakistan, a Peer was due to arrice at a Railway Station in Lahore (I think), and as usual you get a lot of followers of that peer at the station to welcome him. Now some of the British soldirs, saw all this and were very intrigued. When the peer arrived, one of the Soldiers came upto him and said something to the effect of 'all these people claim that you have special powers, this (pointing to his rifle) is the only power I belive in'. He then shot dead a bird which was near bye. The peer then said something like ' Then observe what my power can do'. He picked up the bird, blew on it and it came back to life.(Please forgive any mistakes as I do not recall the actual dialog which took place.) Apparently there are people alive today who actually witnessed this event with their own eyes. I have also heard this story from many people, (they can't all be lying !).
Basically the point to this story is that, we as muslims totally believe that the power of Life & Death is in the hands of Allah Taala. But yet this peer has just brought a dead bird back to life. Many of you will have no doubt heard of storie in the bible of when Hazrath Isa (Jeesus) brought people back from the dead. There is a similar story in the Holy Quran, involving Hazrath Ibrahim aley hisalaam.
What you have to remember is that these individuals are not partners of Allah Tallah or anything like that, they are able to do what they did because Allah Taalah has bestowed that power on them. Ok so this has drifted from the original topic somewhat !.
This can be a very 'cloudy' area in Islam. But basically you have to remember that there are Allah Talla's chosen people who do posess powers to work wonders, but they do so because Allah Taala has given them that ability,from the point of view of the Peers, he is not actually giving you any thing (like a child or wealth or a fast car),what he is doing is asking Allah Taala on your behalf and since he is closer to the Almighty there is a greater chance thet your prayers will be answered.
Sorry yaar, I know I have gone on a bit there, but the whole eccence of this topic (mannath manna) can be taken from one extreme to the other depending on what your belife is. Hope this has answered some of your questions.
naz, im glad we agree that we should ask only Allah for help and needs. As far as scholars and people with special powers go... i am sure they must have existed and exist to this day. To be in their company should be an honor for every muslim. In that sense I agree if a muslim goes to bari imam with a niyyat to learn from other muslim scholars who visit or stay in the shrine then thats allowed.
You are right its a cloudy area. There is a fine line and if we cross that line we committ shirk. i've bent backwards to convince my immediate relatives not to do such things. there are a lot of other things we can do to please Allah. Why pursue such an uncertain territory?