Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

No, I'm annoyed that you are making up your own things.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

i shouldn't have said 75% instead it was the fact that the idea of talibs taking over afghanistan wasn't widely opposed by pakistanis in pakistan as much as the fact that they saw US as the enemy #1 b/c i had posted that article about two weeks back but all i ask is that you take some time and do some research on who the taliban are and who the hazaras are since you said you have no clue about the two rather than act like an online warrior without any knowledge on the topic of the thread.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

If hareem01 has no clue about the Hazaras then perhaps he/she should do the research before posting.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Peace Nisha25

The articles written by western particularly American journalists lack a certain authenticity when you read them:

This is what I know about the taliban situation and Afghanistan and Hazaras.

Point 1: Hazaras have always been persecuted by the Afghan Pashtuns, however this is becoming less these days, even before the Talibanis came on the scene.
Point 2: Not all Pashtun are Taliban nor are all Taliban are Pashtun - I'm sure you'll find some Hazara Talibanis too !!!
Point 3: Taliban is not a single movement it is a number of resistances all of which claim to establish Shari'ah
Point 4: Al-Qaeda are not Taliban, however Taliban gave sanctuary to Al-Qaeda members.
Point 5: The Pakistanis may be against America invading Afghanistan but that does not mean they are with Taliban ... we do not follow the Bush philosophy of "If you are not with us you are against us" ... Rather we say both America and Taliban are not good for the Afghan people.
Point 6: The Taliban seem to be favoured but if democracy was established in Afghanistan the Pashtun would far outnumber everyone else ... The Northern Alliance is anti-democratic - guess who made them - yes the Western democratic powers - Yes NA constitute the minorities of Afghanistan and a few Pashtun tribes.

This list can go on and on ... but the simplistic way American journalists write about this trodden state is tell tale of them casting stories from a distance in the comfort of their armchairs on the other side of the planet.

In short to be against the American invasion does not equate to being with the oppressors of that nation.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

As if you are an expert on Hazaras. :rolleyes:

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

A new twist to this UN staff have been killed in Mazar e sharif in the protest against the american pastor who burnt Quran

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

I am pretty certain I know a lot more than you do. And the fact of the matter is, you won’t find a single Taliban supporter among the Hazaras.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Peace gora

You can't qualify that you know a lot more than hareem01 on Hazaras and you can't qualify whether any Hazaras support the Taliban or not ... it's best not to make such claims and keep to accuracy which is "that such and such is your opinion".

Coming to your pilot question:

"If Hazaras resist and fight the Taliban again, would anyone here support their right to do so?"

To answer your question ... If the Hazara fight the Taliban unprovoked then I will not support it, but if they fight various Taliban groups (or those tribal Pashtuns who claim to be Taliban), which are first oppressing them then yes I believe Hazara people have a right to defend themselves from oppression. But if there is no basis for Hazaras to fight with Taliban other than keeping their numbers low - then I can't support that.

The dynamics of the situation is that Taliban have been driven underground by the presence of the Northern Alliance plus NATO troops, if NATO leave then the current resistance forces of Taliban will resurface no doubt about that. Are the Taliban or rather Pashtuns allowed to resist? - well if they are being persecuted by the empowered Hazaras and other races then yes again they are allowed to resist. According to the Taliban the country that was in their power was wrongfully invaded according to the Hazaras the Taliban are an oppressor.

According to me ... it is wrong to call all anti-Northern Alliance forces as Taliban and it is undemocratic to replace the Pasthun majority with a mixture of minority groups to assume leadership in a country. Rather Muslims with a traditional approach to Islam should be trying their level best to make sure Taliban understand the lack of wisdom in their approach to establish Shari'ah.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

psyah, can you give me a source that tells me about this Hazara taliban groups too please b/c that seems unbelievable seeing that the hazara have been persecuted by them for so long especially before NATO forces got to afghanistan

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Peace Nisha25

I didn’t say that there are whole Hazara groups that are Talibanic … I said there are Hazara amongst the Taliban. The media make it out that Taliban were racist - ethnically cleansing the region of Hazaras this is not really true. The Taliban idea came about whilst Hazaras were being killed by Pashtun. Many people joined the Taliban including people who had unIslamic values - when some Pashtuns who were no good people became officials they abused their power and continued killing the Hazara people.

Here look this person a Hazara joined the Taliban:

http://kabulcenter.org/?p=102

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

He didn't join because he agreed with the Taliban. He joined in order to stop a massacre of his own massacre from occurring.

Major difference.

And let's be honest. Mullah Dadullah is seen as a hero by a lot of fanatical Sunnis too.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

psyah:

[quote]
Rather we say both America and Taliban are not good for the Afghan people.
[/quote]

That may be your personal opinion. But Pakistan govt and intelligence agencies actually created and helped Taliban try to conquer Afghanistan.

[quote]
The Northern Alliance is anti-democratic - guess who made them - yes the Western democratic powers
[/quote]

Why do you think NA is anti-democratic?
And why do you say Western democratic powers made them? No. NA was formed by people who were against Taliban, and it was created when there was no Western power in Afghanistan.

[quote]
I said there are Hazara amongst the Taliban.
[/quote]

The example you gave tells that this guy joined Taliban to stop Taliban massacring Hazara. He didn't join them because of supporting their policies.

[quote]
The media make it out that Taliban were racist - ethnically cleansing the region of Hazaras this is not really true.
[/quote]

They did kill a lot of Hazaras, sort of ethnic cleansing, but I don't think anybody said it was due to racism. They selectively killed Hazaras because Hazaras are mostly shia while Taliban follow extremist violent brand of religion which allows killing of anyone disagreeing with their teachings.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

That's true for most Pakistanis but all.
Reminds me of Imran Khan and his claim of Pakistan having no terrorist problem before 2004.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Northern Alliance may have their faults, but I'd rather see Hazaras dominate Afghanistan than Pashtuns.

At least Hazaras are not opposed to women being educated like Pashtuns and their Pakistani Taliban supporters are.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

How do you know this? The news media in the West are saying that the Shia Hazaras allow marital rape.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Well I would rather see a democratic Agh.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Peace gora

Dude he joined the Taliban my point is proven ... I didn't claim that Hazaras join the Taliban because they necessarily agree with the ideology, even various Pashtuns joined Taliban for reasons of power not all of the them joined for their religious ideology.

gora it appears here that you are more against the Pashtuns and their Pashtun way. Taliban i.e. Islamic reformation as an ideology
is not what you are arguing against here. The truth in what you really say is above ... To make someone an enemy it is easier to call them names like "terrorist", "Al-Qaeda" or "Taliban" ... Many Hazaras have been victimised by many Pashtuns, it is not uncommon for them to use the media to rid their local enemies by painting them as Taliban. Now you too are doing the same.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

Peace khoji

I've numbered your points above my answers are numbered accordingly:

1) What I said I said about whether it was right to accept America come in to Afghanistan heavy handed or to accept Taliban rule. Pakistan government who are somewhat misaligned to the public supported US quite a few years back to form the Taliban ... that does not mean that today Pakistan government accepts them today ... and on the whole the public realise that something has gone wrong. It was the meddling of the West that created Taliban and the meddling of the West that took them down. But alas it may be my personal opinion ... I just wanted to say that my point was about the ethical justification for going in to Afghanistan by the West and that Pakistanis in general today will not agree with either option.

2) NA were put in power by displacing another regime by force hence anti-democratic

3) But the example I gave showed that even Hazaras constituted Taliban and I showed this to demonstrate that in reality many Hazaras who feature on western media use the term Taliban against their Pashtun neighbours not really criticising Islam but the practices of Pashtuns ... I feel this is a tactic designed to play up to the West by many a reporter.

4) I was not talking about the reasons why the Hazara have been persecuted by the Pashtuns. In tribalism and tribal cultures it does not take much to start wars. To blame Taliban for that is wrong ... to blame Shari'ah for that is wrong ... even in the most harshest manifestation the Taliban ideology did not do that ... Pashtun members of Taliban could have abused their power and orchestrated some dire actions, but I don't believe it is correct to say Hazaras were persecuted because they were Shi'a ... but rather because they were already being persecuted and for that matter they didn't accept the rule of Taliban and hence were considered rebels. These reasons would be more accurate.

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

I don't understand the following:

  • you say people realize something went wrong and immediately jump to 'western meddling'. Don't you think what went wrong was the unholy 'strategic depth' dreams which your government, military, intelligence and people enthusiastically supported as long as it meant screwing up and destabilizing Afghanistan? then when the same monsters turned on Pakistan, now 'something went wrong' and you blame the west?

  • the west 'meddled' because they wanted to stop communism spreading into Pakistan; they meddled because taleban govt provided base to al qaeda to attack west from. This is called defense, not meddling.

  • instead of accepting and condemning the taleban massacre of hazara, why are you splitting hair and disengenuously bringing in some odd one amongst million hazara that joined taleban, that too to prevent further massacre! in fact your own reference, if it is to be believed proves that taleban has been massacaring hazaras, does it not?

Sorry but this kind of false argument is what gives justification sometimes to these crooks, though you may not mean it that way

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Re: Hazaras of Afghanistan support NATO and do not want the Taliban to return

^Peace La Parisienne

My simple answer is not Taliban ... Pashtun ... say that and I'll remain silent.