Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
So you do consider it valid. However you won't condemn someone who breaks it. Hey that is great. I guess you don't condemn rapists and pedophiles either.
Since the hadis is valid. That means the contrary is invalid and wrong. Simple common sense and logic.
So if the hadis says women can not lead mixed gender namaz, the opposite of that must be invalid. Simple common sense and logic.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
So you do consider it valid. However you won't condemn someone who breaks it. Hey that is great. I guess you don't condemn rapists and pedophiles either.
Since the hadis is valid. That means the contrary is invalid and wrong. Simple common sense and logic.
So if the hadis says women can not lead mixed gender namaz, the opposite of that must be invalid. Simple common sense and logic.
WTH? You're comparing women leading prayer with rape and pedophilia?
I don't wanna argue with you anymore.....so just buzz off.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Nope. I am stating that you will not judge something invalid because you personally believe it isn't. Your validity of the hadis is dependent on your personal view point. Regardless of what is the right thing to do you refuse to do so because of your personal beliefs which are in conflict with religion.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
How about we all take a namaaz break to cool down? 
Hareem, you can lead me in prayer, I daant mind 
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Nope. I am stating that you will not judge something invalid because you personally believe it isn't. Your validity of the hadis is dependent on your personal view point. Regardless of what is the right thing to do you refuse to do so because of your personal beliefs which are in conflict with religion.
It's invalid for me but not for someone who's not following the opinion of majority, you get me?
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
I personally don’t agree with the opinion of women leading all women or mixed gathering prayer. I knew people would form opinions for giving a more tolerant view.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
I personally don't agree with the opinion of women leading all women or mixed gathering prayer. I knew people would form opinions for giving a more tolerant view.
Fatwas have become a joke these days, that is why I asked what would labelling the women kaafir achieve?
The most one should do as a responsible muslim is clear their misunderstandings, tell them what's valid and what isn't and leave it at that. That's pretty tolerant, right? I think that's what CM is saying - to acknowledge what is wrong. I don't think he's asking for these women to be punished or anything.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Who are we to tell anyone what’s wrong and what’s right? Are we scholars?
This woman is more educated about Islam than any guppy and guppan here. lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amina_Wadud
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Peace All
With respect this is not an issue of common sense it is an issue of exegesis and hence requires higher faculties of reasoning and wisdom. The question asked by CM - why for centuries this has never been questioned is because the nature of rulings are exactly like this.
What happens is that early on there are a lot of opinions pooled together and then the scholars come to an understanding and then pass a ruling on it. Then what happens is that the given ruling remains for a long time - with any hope it remains on an ongoing basis. However sometimes there are times when rethinking is required. There is a lot of resistance because people believe that age old rulings based on Qiyas and Ijtehad are concrete rulings. Shari'ah is not like that ... To a certain extent what is done is a recalibration process not to bend over backwards to suit the norms of the day ... as you know the orthodoxy are against bending the rules for the sake of ease ... but rather to find a balance where the lesser of two harms is evaluated with respect to a fresh view of the source material - since the harms prevalent of the day may differ to those harms of yesteryear. One of the biggest problems we face is our inability to reconcile the fact that goal posts have been moved, so we need to take aim again.
Since the initial discussions regarding the source material on this matter shows a clear difference of opinion of some very conservative scholars when it was first being sketched out - demonstrates that there the issue is not cut and dry despite our recent history showing no signs of differing from the position that "women cannot lead prayers" ... it was also unfashionable for women to lead women only jammats despite them being allowed to do so according to the madhabs.
It is actually a non-argument "we have been doing this for so long - how comes they were wrong and all of a sudden we are right today" ... this shows that the issue is being treated as a "right or wrong" one ... "halal or haram" one ... there are varying degrees of permissibility and based on these some are better than others. Major changes we have faced since the last time significant recalibration was done on fiqh matters like this was when:
a) We had a strong caliphate and Muslims were still fairly highly regarded as the trend setters of intellectual developments
b) When the rest of the world still had women placed as unequal and lower than men
What has happened in the recent past is that the status of women in the world of the current trend setters (i.e. the West) has changed, which means that men view women differently now ... if a recalibration is not done to cater for this "goal post" change then we will damage the reputation of Islam in our resistance.
We need to know what it is that we do not budge on ... These are classifed already and we only need to go to books by 'Aqeedah specialists such as At-Tahawi, Al-'Ashari, Al-Maturidi to work out what these are ... Would you be surprised to know that the issue of women as leaders in prayers is not an issue present in our core beliefs - the ones that define as Muslims ... ??? No ... that it is indeed common sense ....
The women who insist on leading prayers in thsi day and age will have other motives than "ignorance" or "protest" to begin leading prayers ... one motivation is to keep the image of Islam dominant and respected by all people. In the current wind of fairness and equity we need to show that Islam is accomodating as well as defined ... there is a balance that is needed.
I've been tiling my kitchen recently and I find the best type of grout is the sort that dries hard, but is flexible enough to accomodate some movement without cracking ... The toughest material known to man is rubber, it is hard to pierce and damage, but the pay off is that it is not a fixed shape - i.e. it accomodates to external pressure, but the effect on tyres for example is that gives a smoother ride. If diamonds were used on wheels instead they will not accomodate to external pressure, the ride will be rough and if hit in the right place will shatter.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Derail the topic…bring in irrelevant comparisons…
why?
I have to defend my favorite my molvi…
PS
Sometimes…it goes like this “hundred of years of islamic scholars practicing certain things, tutelage, earlier ulema being in better position to judge…all agreed upon by majority of ummah is to be considered the truth”…
and then when it suits the situation…things become like this “we must go back to the original scripture, times change then we can re-interpret the sacred texts…we can re-interpret the text and bring out burried opinions to suit the present day expectations of non-muslims…”
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
If there is a hadith that states "A cannot do B" ... there are a number of things that are needed to be done:
a) Assess authenticity
b) Assess timing (there could be an abrogation later on)
c) Scan hadith related to subject to confirm or conflict with this
d) Determine their authenticity
e) Determine their timing
f) Analyse the conflicts and seek out which are general cases and which are specific cases
g) Draw up a basis for ruling - rulings are based on the conditions of the time
Every issue has a strict interpretation and a lenient interpretation - however ... regarding the wrongs of rulings
Never issue rulings without looking at ALL material pertaining to the subject matter (This means single hadith even if they are direct cannot be taken alone to draft a ruling unless it has been determined that:
a) Nothing conflicts with them
b) No other hadith is present on the matter
If we were to analyse the hadith it has to be worded specifically in order for it to be binding ... Such as the statement "La ilaha ilAllah" - implies not now, not in the past, not in the future ... never has there been, never will there be a diety other than Allah. This can be confirmed from multiple other verses and passages from the Qur'an and Sunnah, but it is not obvious from this statement alone because this statement alone means "No deity except Allah" - it is silent in the time element.
Likewise if there are other passages present regarding women leading prayers then they must be brought forth in order to gain a correct understanding of the issue. Personally I believe there is a justification of it but the ijma' at the time had their ruling.
There is also another hadith on this matter where a woman asked to lead prayers of a mixed congregation and she was given permission to do so.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Peace NomiCA
I’m surprised you think I am biased … I am not defending a molvi … I am defending scholarly leadership per se.
As I said in my post that you failed to say in your post … This day and age has different parameters … if the conditions change then we should adapt within the confines of the methodology of Islamic jurisprudence.
I also said there is a resistance to ijma’ from the past … which is reasonable.
If you were refering to my comparisons as irrelevant then that is your opinion … I believe them to be very applicable … in fact it is a universal fact that - the middle path is something which is neither too hard that it cannot fit and not too soft that it changes its form completely … don’t be too sweet and don’t be too bitter … this is the condition of universal wisdom if you cannot see this then I can’t do anything for you …
As the layman - we should defend every scholar - respect them for their accepted and unaccepted opinions. Note: None of the speech was openly his personal opinion - he merely voiced the opinion of past scholars … The critical need of today is that we need form layers of understanding between differences - not to creat rifts at our fault lines.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Psyah so is the hadis valid or not?
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
^:smack:
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Who are we to tell anyone what's wrong and what's right? Are we scholars?
If you saw someone praying namaaz the wrong way, wouldn't you politely tell them what is it they're doing wrong?
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
Hareem all Psyah has said is that there is a hadis that allows a woman to lead a mixed namaz. So I am wondering if he considers this hadis valid or not?
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
If you saw someone praying namaaz the wrong way, wouldn't you politely tell them what is it they're doing wrong?
And how would I know if they are praying incorrectly?
Some do rafah yadain, some don't. Why do we think only OUR way is the right way?
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
hamza yusuf is bringing up a non issue..for what purpose?Allah knows.
One of the signs of the Day of Judgement is that Haram would be made halal(in this case women leading mixed prayers) and halal would be made haram. May Allah destroy all falsehood and those trying to twist Islam's teachings to appease western/secular audiences.
Re: Hamza Yusuf: Permissible For Women To Lead Men In Prayer
And how would I know if they are praying incorrectly?
Some do rafah yadain, some don't. Why do we think only OUR way is the right way?
If I observed someone doing something that I think is wrong, I don't see a harm in discussing that with them. May be they'll agree with me, maybe I'll realise I was wrong, may be we won't agree at all and continue doing our thing. But it shouldn't be an issue of omg how dare you point it out to me. Forget about issues where differences in opinion exist such as female imams or whatever. What about other things that are quite straight forward e.g. how to do sajdah. As far as I know there's only one way of doing sajdah correctly and if someone isn't doing it properly, I'd point it out. Wouldn't you?