I presented a very strong argument in the post and you have not addressed it at all. You just come up with all sorts of fancy words to justify your position of upholding ‘other’ sources of religious guidance next to Quran. The bottom line is that GOD says the Quran is complete and fully detailed. Don’t you trust GOD.
I asked you to show your proof. I asked you to present the verses in the Quran and/or GOD’s previous scriptures that says it is OKAY to uphold the words of men (hadith & Sunnah) over the WORD of GOD, and you simply CANNOT. The Quran is very clear, but you disregard them in order to follow fabricated man-made doctrines falsely attributed to Muhammad.
If you have an Quranic basis, show the verses. That is all I am requesting. Show your proof in Quran, but cannot.
Hadith & Sunna: Fabrications by the Prophet's Enemies
[Quran 6:112] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
Important Criterion
[6:113] This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such fabrications, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.*
](Chapter 6, Livestock (Al-An ‘ãm) Footnotes)
Quran: Fully Detailed*
[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?* Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
](Chapter 6, Livestock (Al-An ‘ãm) Footnotes)
[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete,* in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
](Chapter 6, Livestock (Al-An ‘ãm) Footnotes)
[6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. They follow only conjecture; they only guess.
^why do you trust the Qur'an, meaning it is persevered? Is it because the Qur'an says that trust me? If so, how do you know what Qur'an says in fact is correct and not written by men?
if recording of hadith is allowed then why Abu Bakr burnt a lot of them and Umar forbid writing them. Either the shaikhan were wrong or the Bukhar, et al were incorrect.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
sayyidna abu bakr and umar themselves are narraters of ahadith , so this argument is kinda flimsy
and many people have narrated hadith from them.
furthermore in their time there is was no need to write it in books as majority of the main narraters were still quite young.
And both shaykhain said that they followed the example of the Prophet ( read sunnah) its quite illogical if they openly forbade its propogation.
lastly as i have written many times before sayyidna umar sent senior sahaba to various parts of muslim empire NOT simply as generals and administrators but as teachers.Now its quite clear if the sahaba simply were teaching Quran there was no need to select senior men ( as Quran was same fo all) obviously these sahaba were close to nabi paak and shared his sunnah with the people.
(e.g abu darda, ammar b yasir, ubay b ka'b, ubaydah b sammit).This contributed greatly to spread of hadith and no surprise that kufa, egypt and basra amongst others became great sites of hadith literature in later years.
submitmj if your logic is human transmission is neccesarily plagued with errors of all sorts why wasnt Quran was carved on the walls of Kaaba by God ?
Afterall he can do anything and everything , why did it have to come through a messanger ? who is a HISTORICAL person
they are not shia in the original sense of the word , shia of sayyidna Ali are all momineen
they are the sect of 12ers , ithna ashari
they are more than willing to quote hadith when it proves their point ( hint ghadeer) even take it out of context and base their whole concept of imamte on it but cant resist to take potshots at shaykhain whenever given the chance
[QUOTE]
For sure to submit means not only to obey Allah (SWT) but to do so without condition. Filtering the Qur'an through our own minds is not therefore submission because it negates the method by which the best Muslims operated.
[/QUOTE]
true , actually their logic is the same as that of the khawarij ..."no judgement but God's"
and it falls apart quite as easily , at the same time simpletons find that quite seducing...
This anti-Hadith agenda is a calculated attempt to discredit islam, we should not kid ourselves into believing that they actually have the best intentions at heart ( they know very well that once they smear the Sirat-e-Nabi they can open more fronts against Islam)
At the same time we should not get TOO DEFENSIVE either, there is no doubt that TONS of ahadith were fabricated too thats why there is such a strong system of judging them developed by scholars.Plus individual variation in opinion about various hadith does not mean that they count for nothing.Islam is very flexible in many respects and scholars in the past have been more than willing to accomodate the views of other fiqahs.
^and your point is that Islam should not have reached you! If you are so fed up with your deen then why do you not flee from it without actually having to dirty your hands with such flawed arguments. Do not think that I am putting words in your mouth, this is what your statement imply. No hadith mean, no Islam would have reached us, PERIOD! Why are shia against writing down the ahadith?
Huh? Do you even comprehend anything?
Shias are not against writing down Hadith. Please go read your sahihs, there are specific Ahadith on the burning of collections by Abu Bakr and Umar.
sayyidna abu bakr and umar themselves are narraters of ahadith , so this argument is kinda flimsy
and many people have narrated hadith from them.
furthermore in their time there is was no need to write it in books as majority of the main narraters were still quite young.
And both shaykhain said that they followed the example of the Prophet ( read sunnah) its quite illogical if they openly forbade its propogation.
lastly as i have written many times before sayyidna umar sent senior sahaba to various parts of muslim empire NOT simply as generals and administrators but as teachers.Now its quite clear if the sahaba simply were teaching Quran there was no need to select senior men ( as Quran was same fo all) obviously these sahaba were close to nabi paak and shared his sunnah with the people.
(e.g abu darda, ammar b yasir, ubay b ka'b, ubaydah b sammit).This contributed greatly to spread of hadith and no surprise that kufa, egypt and basra amongst others became great sites of hadith literature in later years.
Please read Sahihs and read about what I have said. Let me know if you want me to quote the ahadith on burning of ahadith by Abu Bakr and Umar.
^They burned the weak and fabricated ahadith, now tell me where is Mushaf-e-Fatima and why Muhammad Bin Hassan is hiding it?
well that is problematic to say the least
sayyidna umar died in around 20-25AH , at this time a lot of sahaba were still alive , its doubtful if fabricated hadith could have been in circulation then.
Plus there is little evidence for any written forged compilations at that time as it was so easy to disapprove them.
Mushaf-e-Fatima ? is that the book allegedly dictated to sayyida Fatima by angel gabriel ?
**For those who believe in Quran and deny ahadith should know that Quran itself encourages to follow the ways of the prophet(s).
**
So keep believing in Quran AND also the best sources you have for ahadith. For if you deny all ahadith and sunnah from the seerah (seerah includes both ahadith and sunnah) and seerah is the manifestation of Quran. The perfect example of how to be a Muslim. If not you might be missing out on quite a lot and will fall prey to the next so-called scholars’ interpretation which might not be agreeable with you oR just too extreme and a fair and balanced life is not attainable with a part of the information and not the whole.
Say (O Muhammad!): ‘If you love God, follow me so that God loves you.’ (Al ‘Imran, 3.31)
O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Messenger and those in authority from amongst you. (al-Nisa’, 4.59)
**We have not sent a Messenger save to be obeyed by God’s leave. **(al-Nisa’, 4.64)
**O you who believe! Obey God and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him. **(al-Anfal, 8.20)
Obey God and His Messenger and do not dispute with one another, lest you should be dissolved (dispersed) and your strength fade away; and be steadfast. (al-Anfal, 8.46)
Surely there is for you in God’s Messenger an excellent example for him who aspires to God and the Hereafter, and mentions God oft. (al-Ahzab, 33.21)
**It is not for any believer, man or woman, when God and His Messenger have decreed a matter, to have the choice in the affair. Whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. **(al-Ahzab, 33.36)
**He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom. **(al-Jumu‘a, 62.2)
You will never read any where in the Quran words like “Obey God and obey Muhammad” or obey Jesus, or Moses…always the word messenger…that is to emphasize that what is to be obeyed is the message of God and not the personal words of any messenger.
According to your interpretation of these verses, hadith and Sunnah would have to have been created and implemented during the life of Prophet Muhammad. However, that is not the case. They came approx. 200 years after Muhammad died. So, if hadith and sunnah are part of Islam, that would mean the contemporaries of Prophet Muhammad DID NOT have the complete religion. Only AFTER 200 years of rumors and ‘hearsay’ did muslims know how to be ‘muslims’. Your argument is fundamentally flawed. In addition, Sura 69, verses 43-46 confirms that Muhammad was commanded not to teach any other teachings, otherwise he would incur severe punishment from God:
*[69:43] A revelation from the Lord of the universe. *
*[69:44] **Had he uttered any other teachings. ***
*[69:45] We would have punished him. *
*[69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him. *
*[69:47] None of you could have helped him. *
Muhammad was made to swear that the only revelation he received from God was the Quran. The following verse confirms that all what is known as (Hadith Qodsy) are lies that the prophet is innocent of:
[6:19] Say, “Whose testimony is the greatest?” Say, "GOD’s. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you** and whomever it reaches.
If the hadith Al-Qodsy was truly God speaking to Muhammad as they falsely claim wouldn’t the verse carry a testimony to that ???
Nowhere in the Quran is there any indication that Muhammad received from God anything other than the Quran.
Since Muhammad was only given the Quran, and hadith and sunnah came approx. 200 years after he died, by default, the Quran is what he upheld. This is a chronological fact. Therefore, when Quran says ‘obey the messenger’, that means obeying the Quran alone because that is all Prophet Muhammad had during his life.
sayyidna umar died in around 20-25AH , at this time a lot of sahaba were still alive , its doubtful if fabricated hadith could have been in circulation then.
Plus there is little evidence for any written forged compilations at that time as it was so easy to disapprove them.
Mushaf-e-Fatima ? is that the book allegedly dictated to sayyida Fatima by angel gabriel ?
If son of Umar can quote 20% of the ahadith of the Prophet SAW (Bukari), then his daughter could have noted a few of the thing her father said? is it really that unbelievable?
Any why cant Gabriel talk to her, if he can talk to Maryam and Sarah?
Interesting…We know from Quran that those who uphold QUran are the righteous. Thus, will not be punished by GOD. . However, this hadith is saying that those who follow the path of reading and teaching ‘SUNNAH’ will be SEVERELY PUNISHED!!
This is interesting too. GOD is the teacher of the Quran (Quran 55:1-2), not the Mullahs. In fact, putting Islamic scholars up on a pedestal is forbidden in Quran.
[Quran 9:31] They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords,* instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.
In fact, the Quran questions muslims why they would even consider another source of religious guidance INSTEAD of Quran.
[Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?* Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
](Chapter 6, Livestock (Al-An ‘ãm) Footnotes)
[Quran 6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice*. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
](Chapter 6, Livestock (Al-An ‘ãm) Footnotes)
[Quran 6:116] If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of GOD. **They follow only conjecture; they only guess. **
Basically, this 'beautiful’ hadith encourages obeying ‘OTHER’ than GOD. This is exactly what the ‘test’ is about. We are here to see if we obey GOD as our ONLY Lord and Master, or do we follow the words of men? If we trust GOD, we trust HIS words, not the words of men. It is as simple as that.
*Man where do you come from making these baseless claims? *
You have misinterpreted the verses.
1) You will never read any where in the Quran words like "Obey God and obey Muhammad" or obey Jesus, or Moses..........always the word messenger........that is to emphasize that what is to be obeyed is the message of God and not the personal words of any messenger.
Wrong. Read the Quran again. If a qoum was told that they denied their prophetS ( and yes there is an S there ) who are we to say that we will follow only one prophet and deny the rest? There are lessons to be learned from all prophets stories.
2) According to your interpretation of these verses, hadith and Sunnah would have to have been created and implemented during the life of Prophet Muhammad. However, that is not the case.
Your logic is FLAWED!. According to history - history has been written and passed down for centuries before Muhammad (SAW). So NO. They would NOT have to be written, just like the Arabic culture was oral and have a long history orally preserved anyway.
3) Muhammad was made to swear that the only revelation he received from God was the Quran. The following verse confirms that all what is known as (Hadith Qodsy) are lies that the prophet is innocent of:
[6:19] Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "GOD's. He is the witness between me and you **that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you**** and whomever it reaches.
If the hadith Al-Qodsy was truly God speaking to Muhammad as they falsely claim wouldn't the verse carry a testimony to that ???
Nowhere in the Quran is there any indication that Muhammad received from God anything other than the Quran. ...
So where does it say anything that makes a point to support your claim?
