Hadith Misconceptions

Misconception # 1: Allah has not taken responsibility of protecting the Sunnah of the Prophet (sas)

Allah (swt) has taken responsibility of protecting the Sunnah of the Rasoolallah (sas). There is actually a verse from the Quran that proves that Allah preserved the Sunnah.
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We have revealed the Zikr, and we shall preserve it** (15:9)

Now one would say that by Zikr, Allah meant the Quran.

This gives rise to another question, i.e. Is Allah talking about preserving just the wording of the Quran or the wording and the meaning of the Quran? It’s definetly the wording and the meaning of the Quran that has been preserved, and if we look else where in the Quran we find another Ayaah..**

…and we have sent down unto you the Zikr that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought. (16:44)**

This ayaah proves, that the meaning of the Quran is in the Hadith of the Prophet (sas), since Allah appointed the Prophet to explain the text to the people. This proves that the meaning and the explaination of the Quran can only be found by looking at the Hadith of the Prophet (sas) and his explanations. So when Allah (swt) promises to preserve the Zikr it cannot just mean the wordings of the Quran but it must mean the wording of the Quran, and also its meanings and explanations as found in the Hadith of the Rasoolallah (sws).
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Misconception #2: The recording of the hadith did not start centuries after the death of the Prophet (sas)
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For something to be preserved or for something to be authentic it is NOT neccessary for it to be recorded. There are many examples of texts in history that were passed down, and preserved simply by listening to it from others and committing it to memory, and just because it was recorded does not mean it was preserved correctly.

The recording of the Hadith began in the time of Prophet Muhammad (sas). Some of the Companions had their own collections of Hadith. Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Aas used to record each and everything he’d hear from the Prophet (sas) and the Prophet used to encourage this act of his. Some of the Companions had their own collections of hadeeth. Mustapha Azmi an expert in the field, in his book Writers of the Prophet, he’s found over 60 people whose job was to write for the Prophet (sas). Some of them were specialized in writing the Quran, for eg. Muawiyaah (rah) was one of them. And then he had other people who’s job was to write letters, his sayings etc. He had one set of people who specialized in writing down what was revealed on to him, i.e. the Quran. And he had a different set of people, who would write letters from him and his Hadeeth. This was done so that the two texts would not get mixed up. So both the recording of the Hadeeth and the recording of the Quran started in the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (sas).

From the early years we have a collection of Hadeeth from Abu Hurayrah, and it continued to exist as a seperate work till this day and is known as the Sahifa Hamam. This sahifa was passed on from Abu Hurayrah to his student Hamaam, who passed it on to Na’mar, who then passed it on to Abdul Razzaq. This collection has 136 hadith from Abu Hurayrah that he dictated to his student Hamam. There were many early collections as such, such as Sahifa Sadaqa, which contained about 1000 hadith, compiled by Amr ibn Al Aas..who used to say that there are only two things in his life he used to treasure, one was the peice of land that was given to him by the Prophet(sas) and the other was his Sahifa.

The reason why we dont see these many of these collections or Sahifas around these days, is because they were consumed into larger later works. So most of these earlier smaller works dont exist any more many of them lost but we do have references of who compiled what and passed what to whom. Now, since many of these earlier works dont exist anymore, many people now believe that there were no earlier works, which is wrong. There were earlier works but because of the nature of work the muhaditheen worked, they never really referred to the title of the book, they would use the chain of narrators as a reference and people wouldn’t realize its from so and so Sahifa until they studied it in detail.

References:

Jamal Zarabozo’s Hadith workshop
M. M. Azmi’s Studies in Early Hadith Literature.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

theres a number of logical errors here which are being represented as proof. i've got nothing (well not that much) against hadith but possibly you could do a better job arguing the matter.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

The existance of some of the sahifas till this day, as seperate works is testimony to the fact that the recording of the hadith started during the life time of the Prophet (sas). And thats all iam trying to proove here. Iam not saying all of the recording was complete during his life time or during his companions life time...but the recording of hadith started during the life of the Prophet, contrary to popular claim that it wasn't until centuries later that the art of recording hadith came into being.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

I agree with you in the year 99hijri, Omar bin Abdul Aziz,if my memory is right, started of the mission of collecting authentic ahadeeth. It took nearly 150 years after, all the huge work for this comprehensive ahadeeth to be recorded.

Coz at that time, islam was spreading, and many different cultures were coming into the fold of Islam andlots of weak, fabricated hadith were being propagated.

Secondly yes during the lifetime of Prophet, the hadith were recorded ther is a sahih hadith i read it when Prophet salaAllaahwaliuwasslam, was about to give a sermon, he asked one of the Sahabi to write it down.

Secondly, the Arabs were unlettered and they memory was extraordinary as most of the pre-islamic poems of a particular tribe was passed on orally.

Yes the Prophet salaAllaahwaliuwasalam, did mention in one hadeeth that just write the Quran, but the scholars term it as since precision was important Prophet had asked to write the Quran differently to Hadith.

I remember Ubay ibn Kaab, in his own book of the Quran had two extra chapters, but those were the dua which is not present in the Quan. Though he had a wonderful memory.

I stand for correction if I am wrong.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

Jazak Allah

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

so how do zaeef i.e. weak hadeeth factor in here, I mean either they are good or they are not, this wishy washy, weak hadeeth business is rather annoying.

The argument is not very convincing, because it is interpreting ayats to prove a point, the same ayat can be interpreted differently .. i am looking at 16:44. all it is saying is, we have revelaed knowledge to you so u can explain it to people..

I am not anti hadeeth in any way, but hadeeth is not infallible in my view and does not take the same standing as the quran or even close to it

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

I agree. It is by no means proof as claimed by the author (or poster if this isnt c&p) that Sunnah was protected. Firstly the 'proof' using the ayaat is more of an interpretation and extrapolation beyond the text of the Quran ("zikr" stands for Quran in both places, and only that has been declared to be protected). Furthermore every single sect whether within Muslims or within Shias or within Sunnies has a slightly different sort of Sunnah, how is that different from different sects within Christians having different bibles? In contrast there is only one Quran, for everyone who has a claim to Islam.

Furthermore Sharabi, you contradict yourself. Your first paragraph claims that:

[quote]

For something to be preserved or for something to be authentic it is NOT neccessary for it to be recorded.

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..and goes on to argue that recording isnt necessary. But the rest of your argument is in this vein:

[quote]
The recording of the Hadith began in the time of Prophet Muhammad (sas).
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...and you mention recorders who's works were lost over time.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

The body of hadith literature is not in a form of one essay, and neither was it passed down in one go, that it may either be accepted all together or just rejected.

With a significant amount being transmitted verbally through the ages, the media of transmission were the narrators who form the isnad, the chain. Its common sense that there should be some sort of measures that would verify the narrators, to make sure the literature that is being pass through is authentic. This is where we have Ilm al-Jahrh wa al-Ta'dil (the science of accepting and rejecting narrations).

Now using this sceince scholars of hadith verify what would be authentic hadith and what would be a fabricated or false hadith. And between these two we have a huge body of literature lying in the grey area called weak hadith. Its that simple.

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was this science directed from above? were its methods revealed in the Quran? were the results of such science specifically guaranteed to be protected?

when you use a term you entail its full meanings. science is a very human venture and demands that it be constantly subject to revision and questioning of past beliefs. Nothing is ever taken for granted in science, and you cannot at the one end claim God granted results and at the other end claim your work to be scientific. Perhaps you should use the term method instead of science.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

When Allah promises to protect the Zikr (which is the Quran, i agree) how can it possibly mean just the wording of the Quran, the meanings and explanations of many are not even there in the Quran? It wouldn't make sense.

So when Allah promises to protect the Quran his promise extends out to the Hadith of the Prophet too. And yes, this is an interpretation .. and its the only rightful, logical interpretation that can be derived out of those two ayaahs. And
if Allah has promised to protect the Hadith, i am sure he'd protect the means, which are the hadith sciences, by which the literature is preserved.

The word science is a very general word and can be used interchangably with knowledge or methodology, Iam sure you know that. And yes a science or any knowledge is constantly subject to change and revision, if there is any room for it.

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Can you explain to me about how the Quran, was passed on generations after generations.

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No, science is not a general word, and is distinct from knowledge and methodology. Anyway I wont go into that discussion. Bottom line is something isnt scientific implicitly carries in it the possiblity of being incorrect.

be careful with what you say because you are the first person I’ve encountered in all discussions about hadis who says Allah’s promise extends to Hadis. Now when you acknowledge its an interpretation your going on to say that all other interpretations are illogical, and your also saying that a Quranic guarantee outside the one YOU extrapolate beyond the text doesnt make sense.

To my mind that simply is bluster that undermines every other interpretation by calling it senseless, wrong and illogical.

You should also note that if an interpretation that is the only one that makes sense to you that does not automatically become proof.

Now, coming back to the topic, you are sure that Allah would protect the means, i.e. the hadith sciences. Why would He protect the means? Because you are sure Hes promised to protect the Hadis. Why would He protect the Hadis? Because you have extrapolated the text of the Quran, and the generally understood meaning of the Quran to extend to protection of the understanding of the Quran as explained by the Prophet. There is no Quranic basis for that extrapolation, and you are not God that people will accept your surity and your perception of sense and nonsense as the writ of Allah.

None of your “hadis sciences” were revealed by Allah in the Quran or to His Prophet. They werent specifically guaranteed to be protected, and you shouldnt appropriate the right to decide what makes sense for Allah to do and what doesnt.

There are thousands of hadis books and each sect and subsect has a different set of ahadis. To compare that level of authenticity to that of the Quran is just lessening the miracle of the Quran.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

ravage good points, covered all I was goint to say and then some. so I will just wait for responses.

good discussion.

Sharabi- as I have noted before, I am not anti hadith. I come from a very hadith focused family.

My point is not to exclude or include all hadith, and I am als not a supporter of rejecting hadith at whim, my point is that the authenticity is debatable, and some hadith were statements for specific events, and while guidance can be soght from them for applicability of that wisdom in our lives today, they may not apply exactly the same way as they did back then.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

Do you have another interpretation? and one that refutes what iam trying to say? I have explained my view point quite logically, and I have yet to see you or fraudia refute my interpretation of the two Ayaahs.

Let me offer another point of view..

The Quran is an eternal guidance, right? Now, in the Quran Allah makes it obligatory on us to obey the Prophet. Allah says in the Quran...
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And he who obeys Allah and His Messenger, and fears Allah, and is careful of (his duty to) Him, these it is that are the achievers. (24:52)

Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger... (24:54)**

The Quran is Allah's speech and the Messenger's speech is the Hadith.

Now as per your statement that Allah extending the protection to Hadees, would lesson the miracle of the Quran....would this command of Allah to obey the Prophet in the same sentence where he commands us to obey Him, lessen His status(god forbid)?

Of course not...this Ayaah is proof that Obedience to the Prophet (i.e. to his Hadees) is as obligatory as Obedience to Allah (which is the Quran).

If the obedience to the two sets of knowledge and literature were equally important, for eternity, you'd expect equal preservation measures for both of them.

Secondly obedience to the Messenger (his actual commandments) can only be possible if the the body of Hadees is protected by Allah. If we deem the entire Hadees literature to be fallible then acting upon it and obeying it becomes impossible, because we dont trust it in the first place.

Since we have the belief that Allah can do anything. And if he made it obligatory on us to obey the Prophet's commands, till eternity, than he must have protected his Hadees...because anything that is fallible, falls with time.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

A refutation doesnt necessarily involve offering another interpretation. It suffices for me to point where your proof fails, which I have been doing throughout the thread.

I appreciate the difficulty of the question that you are trying to answer and it isnt something that has been approached for the first time by Muslims over time. I wont hazard a complete explanation myself, but I’ll tell you what I believe, and it is closely aligned with the shia school of thought.

  1. Quran is free from corruption as guaranteed by Allah
  2. The Prophet and those coming after him (Imams / tabieen for sunnies) explained different portions of the Quran (note that not all of the verses of the Quran by far are referenced in ahadith), and demonstrated the Islamic lifestyle and values that we have inherited and carry on.
  3. There is no Quranic guarantee about the authenticity of ahadith, only human best-effort ones. All human endeavour is normally fallible, as is this. Any hadis that conflicts with the Quran should not be followed.

I would not, however, try to prove that this is THE logical belief simply because it makes sense to me. I expect it wont make sense to you, but luckily I wasnt trying to prove anything nor did I have to offer this statement of belief in order to refute your proof.

You misunderstood me. I did not say that it lessens the Quran’s authenticity because the Prophet is human. “in hiya wahiyun yuha” is a stronger statement of the Prophet’s words high worth.

It lessens the Quran’s claim to authenticity because unlike Quran, there are a hundred different views amongst Muslims, non Muslims, people in general about what exactly constitutes a historically correct hadis. YOU may claim that what you have in your hand IS the right set of ahadith that Allah miyan was talking about when He (according to you) guaranteed their protection, but anyone hearing your argument will tell you falana Moulana thinks this hadis in your set shouldnt be there. Falana group of sunnies adds this to the hadis. Falana group thinks Imam Malik was wrong about that set. It is very remeniscent of the Bible and it’s variations.

If you will group ahadis together with the Quran in Allah’s guarantee then people will be right in arguing that Allah’s guarantee nauzubillah wasnt met, because look people are disputing each other in what is actually part of Allah’s supposed protection.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

Ravage, i want an answer for my post #11

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

yo_wasim, what is your point?

the Quran was written down in one coherent form within the time that most people around the prophet were alive, and there have been no additions or substractions since.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

Ravage re consider, this point of yours.
It was written in the form, but i am talking about the order of the Quran. The sahabas had a different order the written material maintained by ibn masood, ubay ibn kaab was different.
How do we believe that, we have the same order as revealed by our Prophet salaAllaahwaliuwasalam.
Overall, they are many factors in the Quran that cannot be understood without the Hadith. If you have ibn kathir with you and you are trying to completely deny even authentic hadith present in it thats compatible with the Quran then its wrong.
I agree with you the status of the Hadith is not equivalent to Quran. But there is some method the Quran from suhuf, it became a Mushaf, it was done out of due diligence. Zaid ibn Thabit missed out one verse in Surah Ahzab who is considered recorder of the Quran, and it could be found with only one Sahabi and it was added.
There were many sahaba karam instead of ahad in surah ikhlas, the used to recite this as wahid.
This is only with one surah, they are many others I can give you an eg.
But to deny Ahadeeth, then i dont agree with you, and claim that the ulum al hadeeth was not meticulously structured is a baseless argument.

Re: Hadith Misconceptions

This should be of some help

Understanding Sunnah