Re: Had there been no ‘Mujahideen’…
Please people stop confussing legitimate Mujahideen with terrorists… 
only the American ulloo ke pathay should be making that sort of mistake.
Mujahideen exists everywhere… wherever Islam has gone… there you will inevitably find a Mujahid.., be he a veteran fakeer with a tasbeeh as weapon or a AK47 wielding youth.
Terrorists only seem to be where there is Oil or Gas or any other sort of resource, and the inevitable foriegn power.
You guys are confusing two separate things.
Afghans and Commie invasion
The mess in FATA.
Pakistan could have /should have (ain't that easy now to say) participated in #1 for many many reasons. Some internal and some external and all those were ligit.
The problem that we see now is #2 aka the mess in FATA aka fed admn TRIBAL area.
FATA should be renamed as one or perhaps all of the following:
It is party the fault of Pakistani people
and mostly the fault of
FATAns themselves.
FATAns sold themselves to Americans during Commie invasion
And now they have sold themselves to the Arabs and Islamists. And as a result they have become a ditto copy of "Islamists jahannum of Afghanistan".
How to get out of it?
Well every dark period is in fact filled with opportunities.
And Paks have a HUGE opportunity to clean up the FATA mess once and for all.
For the first time ever, most of the tribal agencies are under direct control of an army and luckily it happens to be Pakistani army.
We should use this time to bring civilization to the primitive tribals. Modern police system, modern court house, universities and schools. We must use all our resources to put major highways through the FATA and all the way upto the Islamist Jahannum of Afghanistan.
politically, we must change the status of FATA to a settled province. They should merge with KP. However if they have any trepidation, then they should be given a separate (however small) province with an assembly and CM and ministers.
We can't change the past. What's done is done. Blaming Zia or Mush is useless.
The problem in Pakistan is because we allowed lawlessness to fester in our territory and we are paying the price.
End the lawlessness and the source of tribalness and we'll be a-ok.
Re: Had there been no ‘Mujahideen’…
dont wory about the past because the already predicted future of Pakistan is very bright. all we have to do is stand up and be a part of it. and not be against it when the time is ripe.
the future of Pakistan!!
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/423899-the-future-of-pakistan.html
Had Pakistan not cooperated with USA in pushing back the commie threat from USSR, what would the country look like today?
Possible scenarios?
One thing for sure, pak army generals would not be as rich!
.
With Afghanistan effectively annexed to Russia.... Pakistan would be bullied into coming under the thumb.
The warm-water port theory (that the USSR wanted to control Pakistan for an Arabian sea port) is not some fabrication of Zia's mind.
myths , lies only.
firstly russia didnt invade afghanistan but was invited with desperate pleas by then communist govt there, it has no plans for invasion of afghanistan and it was purely an stabilizing move in first years.
well what would have happened if russia had stabilized afghanistan?
ressurgence of communist inspired movements specially in those times remember we were in worst dictatorship.
violence or small scale insurgencies in balochistan and in sindh so either way problems would have been there but those could not have arisen should we had democratic/popular setup.
Re: Had there been no ‘Mujahideen’…
:k: Well said.
myths , lies only. firstly russia didnt invade afghanistan but was invited with desperate pleas by then communist govt there, it has no plans for invasion of afghanistan and it was purely an stabilizing move in first years.
well what would have happened if russia had stabilized afghanistan? ressurgence of communist inspired movements specially in those times remember we were in worst dictatorship. violence or small scale insurgencies in balochistan and in sindh so either way problems would have been there but those could not have arisen should we had democratic/popular setup.
Ya right, same way Americans were invited in Vietnam and Bhuttos tried their best to invite India and America to Pakistan... same way, Indian Troops entered ( with bouqet ) in East Pakistan...
Re: Had there been no 'Mujahideen'...
if it wasnt for the mujahadeen, namely mehsuds, azad kashmir would be on the indian side of the border
myths , lies only. firstly russia didnt invade afghanistan but was invited with desperate pleas by then communist govt there, it has no plans for invasion of afghanistan...
I have gotten very busy so trying to avoid getting into this thread. However one important fact that is always overlooked is that the Saur revolution happened in May of 1978, while the Soviets did not invade until December of 1979.
More than 1.5 years. What led to the Soviet invasion was American military support provided by CIA to the anti communist movement in Afghanistan.
If the Americans had not militarily aided the insurgents against the Afghan government there would have been little need for the Soviets to invade. In a way Americans militarily (CIA) aided Afghan rebels before the Soviets ever invaded...
Here is an excerpt from the interview with Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser:
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs "From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war.
..... If the Americans had not militarily aided the insurgents against the Afghan government there would have been little need for the Soviets to invade. In a way Americans militarily (CIA) aided Afghan rebels before the Soviets ever invaded....
Afghan government baboos were being supported by Moscow commies
And
Afghan Muj were being funded by US.
The blame only goes to the Afghans who destroyed themselves.
In this world, most of the fasadis aka Jihadis work for money and destroy their own country. Why to blame others.
Afghan government baboos were being supported by Moscow commies And Afghan Muj were being funded by US.
The blame only goes to the Afghans who destroyed themselves.
In this world, most of the fasadis aka Jihadis work for money and destroy their own country. Why to blame others.
Then we should all blame YOU pakistanis for the violence in Pakistan. Thank you very much for enlightening us burqi.
Then we should all blame YOU pakistanis for the violence in Pakistan. ...
Off course Einstein. Who else?
Pakistanis are FIRST to be blamed for our ills.
We have picked up the cr@p of sectarianism and Jihadism from Saudi and Iran. And now merrily destroying our country brick by brick, girls school by girls school.
:k: :k: The sooner we take the onus of a problem, the sooner we can begin to fix it.
Re: Had there been no 'Mujahideen'...
Many of us were not even alive back then or were too little to understand country politics the way those into politics understood. There must be a reason why Pakistan decided to to do what it did. Who knows due to what threats? Times are always changing. What seems right in today's world of Paki or international politics might not be the right set of actions a few years down the line from now. Or what was a good set of actions in the past namely 20-30 years ago could be a completely undesireable, unpractical or bad strategy.
We cannot question why........................ given Zia himself was not a looter or peronally benefitted from the country's resources like many other Pakistani leaders & dictators, we can safely say that all the actions he took while in power were not for any kind of personal gains but strategies which he, in his own mind, felt would be good for Pakistan's interests.
We would never know why......... I tend to consider him like an extremely strict parent who does not think it is wrong to hit / beat his children or lie to them only to assure a good up-bringing. Maybe in his own mind, all his decisions for Pakistan were for country's gain in one way or the other but not his personal gain.
God knows the best.
Re: Had there been no 'Mujahideen'...
Absolutely wrong. He took all wrong decisions to continue his illegal rule. He raped nation for 11 years, the nation is still breeding illegetimate jehadis. He must be burning in hell for what he did to Pakistan.
Many of us were not even alive back then or were too little to understand country politics the way those into politics understood. There must be a reason why Pakistan decided to to do what it did. Who knows due to what threats? ..............
About time we start reading and learning from the history. We should not have the excuse that we were not yet born in 1947 or 1971 and refuse to learn from what happened. Same goes for making decisions under uncle sam's pressure. We have been doing that since 1950s and the question is, what would have happened if we took a U-turn and refuse USA in 1980s? or 2000s for that matter.
Re: Had there been no 'Mujahideen'...
longrangerm,
Zia's mujahideen fought against USSR / soviets / lucifier's agents who also back up the creation of israel. Whereas the present mujahideen are in total control of soviets / Mossad / RAW & fighting against america / Pakistan / Afghanistan. Tell me did Zia-america backed mujahideen caused more misery to the world or are the present USSR-Mossad-RAW backed mujahideen causing more global misery?
How I understand this is that if Pakistani people had little or no freedom during zia's regime, even the anti pakistan forces also had little or no freedom on Pak soil hence we had better economy & better state of affairs (except for freedom). And you must not forget that he was not corrupt so definitely he did not do it for personal gains but only to keep strong grip on Pakistan's affairs & existance. I am in no way suggesting that dictatorship is a good thing but most probably he knew about threats to Pakistan's existence that we do not. Maybe he knew how stupid Pakistani people are. You can see how easily every single insitution of Pakistan is being exploited by anti pakistan mafia. So, he had a good grip on them all.
To excel responsibly as a nation without a non-corrupt leader like zia, Pakistani people really need to become much mature, sane, extremely clever not to be exploited easily like they are being presently.
And kakaballi, please Im not suggesting a dictatorship for Pakistani people so please do not misunderstand. Infact, I am not even saying that zia's strategy was great. Im just saying that we might never know what he had in mind.
Re: Had there been no 'Mujahideen'...
had their been no Taliban & tablibanic related stuff..
their will be no gayism in Pakistan/Afghanistan
their will be no drugs/Kalashnikov culture in Pakistan
had their been no Taliban & tablibanic related stuff..
their will be no gayism in Pakistan/Afghanistan their will be no drugs/Kalashnikov culture in Pakistan
Actually the Taliban punished homosexuals so they clamped down upon it.
Considering you paint yourself as a liberal-ish type person I wonder what you have against homosexuals?
Had there been no Mujahideen Pakistyan would have been a Russian satellite state or if it had resisted Russia would have simply given more support to secessionist groups in Pakistan's Balochistan and NWFP. Afghanistan was pushing for its Pashtunistan and a large section of the then NWFP elite/establishmenmt were pro-Pashtuniustan.
With India on one side, Afghanistan and Russia on the other I shudder to think what would have been left of Pakistan back then.