Nanak wasn't a muslim but espoused a humble jumble of pantheist nonsense. Even in the sikh holy book(collection of tales) in his writing he says he is neither a muslim or hindi. In anycase, if they are understood to be muslims, they should be killed for biddat.
Also, it should be pointed out that back then in punjab people didn't practice religion as we know it today. A muslim, hindu or sikh, espescially in the rural uneducated areas but less in the urban areas of multan and lahore, people used to partake in each others religous festivals and there formed some religous and cultural syncretistim, similar to how indonesians are muslims but still practice their pagan customs. This can be extended to pretty much all of south and south east asia. After partition the hindi practices were cleansed from pakistan and now were seeing an islamic renaissance taking place with the return to the true islam as was practiced by prophet Muhammed(pbuh). This is also occuring in indonesia, thailand, malaysia etc.
If you want to believe that its a collection of fairytales so be it, and if you think it was nonsence thats your thought on it... but i would advise you to study the Quran and Vedas in detail before making any comments like that.
Brother you say kill the Sikhs if they were understood to be Muslims but you yourself said cleary said that Guru ji wasnt a Muslim because of the fact that Guru ji said he was neither Muslim nor Hindu, so where did the question of if they were understood to be Muslim come from?... now if im correct in thinking... doesn't the Quran also say killing one person is like killing the whole of mankind?
Brother now you say kill the Sikhs... now if my correct in thinking... doesnt the Quran say killing one person is like killing the whole of mankind?
hahaha...what r u talkin about, paaji/penji?
quran says to kill all unbeleivers if they dont convert or pay jizya.
first try to convert and if they do then all is well and good. if they dont, then extort jizya tax from them. if they dont pay jizya, kill them. simple.
so basically, you are incorrect in thinking what u did.
and if u dared to leave islam, then the punishment again is death. u must have heard of abdul rehman, the afghani convert.
^Yes... but i knew that coz i know Hindus were taxed under Muslim rule or had been given the other option of converting to Islam... but on the other hand... that was a quote which i gave from the Quran if i remember correctly... maybe it was referring to Muslims killing other Muslims then or maybe Muslims killing other people of the book such as Zorastrians and Jews etc. And also murdering is also against the 10 commandments isnt it?
Yes i have heard about the Afghani convert... and i think its part of Islamic Sharia law isnt it to stone him to death i think... which is why he fled to Germany or somewhere i think. Ive also read quotes before from the Quran which talk about people being belivers and then disbelievers and then believers and then disbelief again will not be forgiven... summet like that... coz i read it ages ago.
I only 16, so please forgive me for any mistakes and when ive quoted from anyones writings please dont take it as a direct attack against you i was just trying to present the Sikhi view if i think its been wrongly interpretted. And if im wrong in anyway please tell me as i havent got much knowlege but ive only started learning Sikhi since early last year.
Satsriakaal and peace to all of you.
I don't believe it. This is not a wisdom of a 16 year old.
^brother/ sister i am 16 (coming up 17 soon in about a month) and let me say one thing that wisdom and knowledge doesnt come with age... it comes with experience which i have. (please dont think im saying this in a boasting sense because im not). Because when i had a problem when i was younger... i turned to God for help... because some problems you cant tell anyone... because people just cant relieve some pain or problems (expect God). and when you start doubting your faith.., because ppl 'brainwashing' you and start saying convert, convert or giving you a hard time about being a Sikh... then you start to question your faith. and on the other hand things lead me to more misunderstandings about Sikhi... you feel you been betrayed all your life... thinking constantly what if all of us go to hell? And by converting to Islam you will save your family from hell (this is something that i remember which was in my mind then)... which was probably 'brainwashed' into me by some sites and i was starting to believe in Islam... and i stopped eating bacon... which i use to love and i started lieing to my parents saying 'its sick'... and started studying about Islam 'secretly''... and thinking to myself... im 100% going to convert to Islam... and i was serious and not kidding around (this was the hardest thing ever for me to accept... after keep on thinking about 'basty' and what my parents will think... what if they give up in God... because of this... and what if other Muslims start to take advantage of this to put other Sikhs down... what if they do something stupid like commit suicide ... how am i going to forgive myself etc). As a kid this was not easy and it was out of my comfort zone and i broke down since i was carrying this in my head all alone, and one day i begged God for mercy and i was crying so much... and that was the night that i had my 'experience'... which i thought God was directing me towards Sikhism and that very night i started believing in Sikhism fully again... all my misunderstandings were cleared about Sikhism... and my problem that i had all started to make sense... and that was the first time ever i had felt God... and understood the meaning of anand... and on that day onwards i started studying Sikhi in depth... and i cant tell you how much the Sikh scriptures started to make sense to me (these very scriptures that i was doubting before)... like some things i couldnt understand before such as pain and suffering are God's gifts... about being dead but alive (something on the lines of that)... because i had felt all this for myself first hand... and im not joking i was so serious that i wanted to be a pie/ Granthi (who reads the Sikh scriptures) in the Gurdwara and become baptised... where a turban, grown a beard the full thing... but unfortunately... i wasnt able to do this... coz i didnt/ dont feel good about myself... and dont think i deserve to do such a pure thing as that anyway... and then in between my faith has kept on being questioned... but with every and each question and doubt my faith in Sikhi has got stronger... and because the 10th Sikh Guru told us to study other faiths (for knowledge and said keep faith in the Guru)... i started studying the Quran (again deeper- which was kinda hard at first after everything that had happened) and the Vedas... and started studying other faiths even though some breifly... such as Christianity (because i learnt that in school before and i go to a Christian college at the moment anyway), etc but anyways studying other faiths has made me have a stronger belief in Sikhi... and made me understand God more...
but anyways this is a very shortened version of what happened and there is alot more to it (and ive already mentioned some stuff in the posts before this)... but i hope this may give you a insight of why i am knowledgable in some areas... even though its not really much but still.
And brother/ sister what would i get out of lieying about my age? And who would i be fooling, the world and more importantly myself? Because God knows all... and no one can fool him.
what u wud get out of lying abt ur age?
well, for starters, it makes u sound much much more intellectual…a virtual child prodigy.
second, people might not attack you with vigour since they’d think ur just a little child and no one likes attaacking children.
thirdly, it gives u the quick exit route cos u can always revert back to"…oops i’m just 16, sorry!"
LOL…i’m just joking uksingh buddy.
see, if u’ve indeed done a lot of research on all the religions, then its definitely worth taking note of.
but experience has shown me that in this anaonymous world of the internet when u have little idea of the details of the person ur speaking to…theres no reason for a guy to slip in a line saying “i’m just 16” unless he/she wants to purposely draw attention to it for whatever may be the reason.
again, i’m not doubting what u’ve said.
if ur 16 then its indeed very interesting that u’ve spent so much time on a topic such as religion. however i wud suggest at ur age if u’ve been going thru “problems”…read the book “dont sweat the small stuff” by richard carlson instead of the religious texts. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/282921/104-4879288-6046326
And i maybe why your wondering why i am on religion so much... maybe you may understand this because i feel lonely in this world... and the only thing that keeps me going is God... infact the only thing that stopped me from commiting suicide a while ago...was the fear of God and God's punishment for going against his will coz of the sanctatity of life... otherwise i have nothing to live for... but im not saying this to make stuff up.
And i swear of Waheguru's saw/kasam that im 16... and im in my first year in college... and if i lie... one day i will face God's court anyway... and then God shall see to me then, which then i will see God's punishment if i did lie about my age esp now that i have sworn on his oath.
And thanks for the advice paaji/penji for the book... but im coping my reading scriptures... and im just relying on God... whereever he takes me... even though i fear for the worse.
Like you said on the internet people are anoymolous and there is no need for me to lie or anything... and by the way i hate attention... and the only reason why i ended up on this forum is because i found this link to this forum which was saying about Sikhs hate Muslims and there the enimies and there allowed to cut there hair when they killed Muslims (but i havent found that link since i signed up... and i ended up posting on other posts)... and i thought i'd clear things up... because im sick of lies from this world and misrepresentations. Especially after all i went through about finding about my identity.... coz when i was younger i found these sites (Ahmediya) one said Sikhism is a sect of Islam and one said (Hindu) and said Guru Nanak is a Hindu God -Vishnu- which will mean Sikhism is a sect of Hinduism and this was one of the things what tore me apart and made me doubt Sikhi. And i thought i'd say that funnily i came across the same websites about in december this year (to study other scriptures since the 10th Guru had told us)... and instead they made me stronger in Sikhi... since i have had more knowledge than when i first saw them... so i could see the difference between what was the truth and what was misrepresentations.
Lol... stupidly in a way i feel good now... coz i just realised that ppl think im older than my age... atleast it makes me think im brainer than i really am. :)
i understand tht during the teenage people do tend to overcomplicate their life partly due to the biological changes tht the body undergoes during tht time. this causes moodiness and in some cases sui cide contemplations as well.
however, i must advice u to socialise and form a healthy friend circle at this age. to even think about suicide or to dwell upon ur loneliness at this age is a folly. i'm not trying to preach but i do feel that as an elder its my duty to say this to you.
another thing, for the time being lay off from the religious books and hone ur other talents and interests. it can b anything...ur career, sports, a hobby, acting, singing, socialising, other extra curricular stuff.
this is not the time to introspect cos introspection comes after u've had all kinds of lifes experiences.
does a cricket team introspect before playing the 50 overs? no.first play the whole game and then introspect.
all said and done, if u were my brother in real life i wud just catch u by ur collar and give u a nice firing(brother to brother) for thinking things like "theres no reason to go on other than god". there r millions of reasons other than religion, open up ur eyes, get off online forums and live life with a bang!
Thanks for all your advice penji/paaji and i really appreciate it (i cant express it) ... even though i dont think i will be able to stay away from religion... i have gone too far into it... that it will be hard if not impossible to come out... and even if i did have suicide thoughts... i would never able to act on it... coz as much as i love God... i fear him just as much.
And nice to know that you care... and its relieving to know that you acted upon what you thought was your duty... and who knows if someone else was in a simular position as me... you may have saved there life and stopped them from commiting suicide... and im feeling better now aswell and you give me good advice regardless me being from another faith... your a good role model for all of us... and a true Muslim for giving good advice when you never needed to, and treating all of Gods creations equally even if it was only for the sake of God... God bless you... and ill pray that you get what ever you ask for...
UK singh.....I dont care about ur age. When, u said 'wisdom and knowledge doesn't come with age'......i completely agree with you. All the things or rather most of the things that you said about urself, i really liked it.
To naved....sometimes 'time' will force you to look into philosophy or rather religion. I dont want to talk about religion. Even i hate this concept called religion. But sometimes, you will have very little choice, but to look into philosophy. Moreover, if you want to know about 'metaphysical' things, in between you will have to look into religion and stuff. Even i hate to do that, but i have done it and still doing it.
uksingh,
my faith is humanism and every human is a member of my faith. and i also hope GOD(if there be one) bless you and you succeed in your life.
peace & cheers
naved
To naved....sometimes 'time' will force you to look into philosophy or rather religion. I dont want to talk about religion. Even i hate this concept called religion. But sometimes, you will have very little choice, but to look into philosophy. Moreover, if you want to know about 'metaphysical' things, in between you will have to look into religion and stuff. Even i hate to do that, but i have done it and still doing it.
ssingh,
i've already looked into religion and philosophy and still do from time to time.
although, i wasnt "forced" to look into it by some circumstance of life, i was always curious to know what the big deal was all about.
BTW, my father is half desi and half persian and my mother is a devout catholic irishwoman. i was raised in an atmosphere where i interacted with people from islam, christianity and mormonism on an almost daily basis.
my fascination or infatuation with understanding where all these religions came from started very early however it was only around my initial college years when i actually started researching stuff(partly because my girlfriend those days was an open Agnostic).
i'd love to interact with other guppies here about the various questions and answers about religion that i came across through all these years and also wud like to hear more perpectives on religion that many of you folks might be able to share.