Gunman targets Israeli kibbutz

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
If the ancient mantra of "an eye for an eye" indeed constitutes "intellectual thought", it would explain the situation that the Palestinians and the rest of the ummah face today.
[/QUOTE]

yeah eye for an eye should not be taken in literal sense. There should be deterrents even in civil law type cases to prevent people from doing something. But revenge killing of innocents is not justice..brining the killers to justice is what should be the way.

Europeans are the best in that regard and have even ended the death penalty. I wish we can follow suit here in US as well.

22

Seminole

If the ancient mantra of “an eye for an eye” indeed constitutes “intellectual thought”, it would explain the situation that the Palestinians and the rest of the ummah face today

Yes, under the circumstances we are living in then for sure I have to agree with you. It is certainly not a fair concept. We don’t have to face any sort of tyranny acts but instead we all are happy with our lives and certainly seeming for a bright future that is ahead of us. I am sorry but this is not the case with these Palestinians. They don’t have any future to consider whatsoever!

Here you go! http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78405 make sense out of it!

It will be surprisingly helpful!

Fraudz

But revenge killing of innocents is not justice..brining the killers to justice is what should be the way.

You seem to be very sagacious in terms of the values of human life. Which is totally understandable and shows the utmost respect you have for human soul and you do happen to feel the pain of all sufferings, which is causing great chaos among our civilization. In fact, most of us would agree with you on this but how do we deal with a tyrant nation like “Israel” and its illegitimate occupation, which has placed thousands of Palestinians in their graves. We can talk all-high and consider Palestinian’s actions as repulsively inhuman because we know that we are not living under the conditions of what Palestinians have been for past couple of decades. I personally believe that revenge killing is not the solution and its not going to be beneficial to either side. Alongside, we have to customarily ask ourselves that what if we were living in Palestine and were facing such oppression then what would be our thoughts and opinions? I am sure that we would pretty much end up following the same path as people of Palestine.

23

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rehaan: *

In fact, most of us would agree with you on this but how do we deal with a tyrant nation like “Israel” and its illegitimate occupation, which has placed thousands of Palestinians in their graves. We can talk all-high and consider Palestinian’s actions as repulsively inhuman because we know that we are not living under the conditions of what Palestinians have been for past couple of decades. I personally believe that revenge killing is not the solution and its not going to be beneficial to either side. Alongside, we have to customarily ask ourselves that what if we were living in Palestine and were facing such oppression then what would be our thoughts and opinions? I am sure that we would pretty much end up following the same path as people of Palestine.
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Good and evil people are everywhere, israel and palestinian both have their fair share of them.. few days back there was a big march in Israel aginst Israeli governments actions in palestinian held areas! and there are palestinians who would never like to see any Isreali alive at all.. we were atught a great lesson by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) how to deal with tryrant and evil actions.. we are ordered to defend ourself but also to make peace where ever there is a need.. and not to transgress even if condistions are worse.. so we are specifically told not to become aggressors.. we are even in worst conditions not allowed to kill children, women, non-combatants, sick and alike. we are even told to migrate if persecution is too much and we cant defend ourselves.. here in thsi mid-east dispute there is only one solution and that is mutual compromise for a palestinian state.. by killing innocent Israelis we are just helping those hawkish Israeli roups and create symapathy for Israelis.. By not resorting to attacks on innocents palestinians would be in much better position to negotiate..

24

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *

Good and evil people are everywhere, israel and palestinian both have their fair share of them.. few days back there was a big march in Israel aginst Israeli governments actions in palestinian held areas! and there are palestinians who would never like to see any Isreali alive at all.. we were atught a great lesson by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) how to deal with tryrant and evil actions.. we are ordered to defend ourself but also to make peace where ever there is a need.. and not to transgress even if condistions are worse.. so we are specifically told not to become aggressors.. we are even in worst conditions not allowed to kill children, women, non-combatants, sick and alike. we are even told to migrate if persecution is too much and we cant defend ourselves.. here in thsi mid-east dispute there is only one solution and that is mutual compromise for a palestinian state.. by killing innocent Israelis we are just helping those hawkish Israeli roups and create symapathy for Israelis.. By not resorting to attacks on innocents palestinians would be in much better position to negotiate..
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How I wish this were the prevailing voice that I heard coming from the Palestinian camp. If this were the voice I heard predominate, I would be the first one sending my Congressmen and Senators emails and correspondence demanding that military and economic support be withheld from Israel until the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people were satisfied. What so many people want to dismiss and ignore is that everything about American heritage, culture, struggle, tendencies, inherent beliefs, value systems etc. makes us a natural supporter and ally of the LEGITIMATE aspirations of the Palestinian people. It's not the Jewish Lobby that is responsible for turning American popular opinion decidedly in favor of the Israelis. It's the words and actions of the radical elements within the Palestinian population that seemingly cannot be and/or have not been controlled by either the people and/or their leadership.

25

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *

Good and evil people are everywhere, israel and palestinian both have their fair share of them.. few days back there was a big march in Israel aginst Israeli governments actions in palestinian held areas! and there are palestinians who would never like to see any Isreali alive at all.. we were atught a great lesson by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) how to deal with tryrant and evil actions.. we are ordered to defend ourself but also to make peace where ever there is a need.. and not to transgress even if condistions are worse.. so we are specifically told not to become aggressors.. we are even in worst conditions not allowed to kill children, women, non-combatants, sick and alike. we are even told to migrate if persecution is too much and we cant defend ourselves.. here in thsi mid-east dispute there is only one solution and that is mutual compromise for a palestinian state.. by killing innocent Israelis we are just helping those hawkish Israeli roups and create symapathy for Israelis.. By not resorting to attacks on innocents palestinians would be in much better position to negotiate..
[/QUOTE]

Very thoughtful indeed! Yes, it does make sense of having different options and definitely Palestinians can pick some of the passive ones and try to implement them. The outcome will sure be very constructive and will benefit both sides. As Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) mentioned that if you are being oppressed by some tyrant nation, the first option you have is to defend yourself and alongside, prosper peace where possible. At the same time don’t turn yourselves into aggressors and without doubt don’t kill children, women, and non-combatants at any cost. This sounds exceptionally logical but at present situation it’s extremely hard to carry out options like migrating to some other place. For instance, Kashmir, Bosnia, Chechnya, and Palestine all are facing oppression and are living under brutal conditions. Consequently, they have been trying to defend their rights but I am not sure if they are really trying to make peace at any stage. To be honest, they don’t have an option to migrate because of extreme persecution. I mean, If they do start to migrate then you are pretty much giving up in a sense! This for sure would provoke tyrant nations to carry out more oppressive acts. This wouldn’t end at all.

Now what are you left with? Defend or try to make peace? Well I don’t think its possible to make peace when you have America taking the side of Israel and assisting them build up massive army and making sure that they are economically healthy enough to fight this war against Palestinians. When you have all these Arab leaders approving all the American policies. Basically, I don’t see it happening!!! You just have to stand up for yourself and give your best in order to get rid of years of repression. This certainly doesn’t mean you go on to kill innocent children, women or you know civilians which have nothing to do with this dubious conflict. However, the question is if they do carry out such killings then what you do? Do you go and execute revenge killing? Well again I would have to agree “MOONA” on this. Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth!! If not then what is the solution? I would love to listen to your opinions on this?

26

*Originally posted by Rehaan: *

*You seem to be very sagacious in terms of the values of human life. Which is totally understandable and shows the utmost respect you have for human soul and you do happen to feel the pain of all sufferings, which is causing great chaos among our civilization. In fact, most of us would agree with you on this but how do we deal with a tyrant nation like “Israel” and its illegitimate occupation, which has placed thousands of Palestinians in their graves. *

How we deal withg that rogue country of Israel is to enforce the UN resolutions that have been passed. maybe we need to make no fly zones there as well. If resolutions are not completely fulfilled we should enforce them just like we would enforce it if Iraq does not disarm.

*We can talk all-high and consider Palestinian’s actions as repulsively inhuman because we know that we are not living under the conditions of what Palestinians have been for past couple of decades. *

I agree, I have met students who grew up in refugee camps and have seen the type of terror and killings that our parenst even dissllowed us to watch on the TV.

When psychologists and sociologists do research on impact of violence in videogames and Tv shows on kids attitudes. Lets multiply that a few thousand times over to get an idea of what these kids grow up with.

*I personally believe that revenge killing is not the solution and its not going to be beneficial to either side. Alongside, we have to customarily ask ourselves that what if we were living in Palestine and were facing such oppression then what would be our thoughts and opinions? *

I would like to think that we would have more balanced views, but I cant say that with 100% certainty. You are correct. It is easy for us to take teh high road because we have not suffered, we have not felt the njustice personally.

But in my view its the job of the rest of the world which is not suffering liek the innocents on both sides to step in and stop this madness. Why dont we do it? I dont know. There are numerous UN resolutions which have not been enforced.

We have to make sure that a feasible solution is sought. There is no way a solution which is optimal from both parties' perspective can be achieved, not with this much mistrust. But we must broker a deal, do it quick and manage it.

*I am sure that we would pretty much end up following the same path as people of Palestine. *

Its not the people of palestine, it is small groups among them. If the people of palestine all followed this path, the situation would be much more deadly.

The solution will be to root out the attacks on civilians from both sides, no justifications are acceptable. force a damn ceasefire and if that means UN forces on the ground like in Afghanistan, sure. Let humans live like humans. Idiots from hamas, iDF or the various rabid settler groups should just be stopped.

Where there is a will there is a way. There are far more ppl who want to end this than those who want to continue this.

27

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *

Your brilliant, you should go join them over there as both sides take this belief to heart and won't stop until they're all dead.
[/QUOTE]

Why don't you join the US Army? I'm pretty sure they need you now for Iraq mission.

28

Crime is crime you do it once or 1000 times. I think it is pathetic to kill some inocent people to proof your point also the people who support these kinds of pathetically foolish acts by action, words etc.

I think they should go and jack themselves.

29

Hello.

If anyone here dares listen to A. stinker. A miricle. What are your good traits? None.

Actually? For once in your life? Did? something mean more than yourself? Ever?

and did ever? mean anything to you?

30

Myvoice,

"If this were the voice I heard predominate, I would be the first one sending my Congressmen and Senators emails and correspondence demanding that military and economic support be withheld from Israel until the legitimate aspirations of the Palestinian people were satisfied. What so many people want to dismiss and ignore is that everything about American heritage, culture, struggle, tendencies, inherent beliefs, value systems etc. makes us a natural supporter and ally of the LEGITIMATE aspirations of the Palestinian people. It's not the Jewish Lobby that is responsible for turning American popular opinion decidedly in favor of the Israelis. It's the words and actions of the radical elements within the Palestinian population that seemingly cannot be and/or have not been controlled by either the people and/or their leadership."

This is utterly and completely true.

Americans have a will to believe in the underdog. They are drawn to the struggle of the righteous. They can relate to the true believer.

But.

They abhor the intentional slaughter of the innocent. I have looked at the media in America very carefully since I have been participating in Gupshup. I have been reading the British papers, and have been carefully trying to consider whether or not the American people have been brainwashed as is often accused here. Unfortunately I am still of the conclusion that the indiscriminate violence is tilted towards the Palestinians. Perhaps they are better at playing the media. Perhaps they have better publicists, and can shape the sentiment of the media to their cause.

But, try as I might, I have never been able to find a situation where the Israeli military intentionally and willfully causes the death of innocents as a sole and distinct motivation. On the other hand, I see suicide bombers climbing on a bus full of school children and with no attempt to avoid the killing of those children, explode the bomb.....

Now, one can easily argue that the IDF had destroyed as many lives. Certainly so. The incursions into the West Bank and Gaza have caused untolled death. But, I have never seen, nor sensed, the intention of any operation on the part of the Israelis, for the sole and distinct purpose of killing the innocent. It is this fact, more than any other, which tips the balance in the mind of most Americans.

The Palestinians have crossed a moral boundry which Americans cannot and will not understand. You can talk yourself blue in the face about the conditions that the Palestinians face. You can relate the horrors of everyday life of a Palestinian, and still the average American cannot and will not cross a moral line which will allow them to endorse a society in which the INTENTIONAL and willful taking of innocent life is condoned and endorsed.

I completely agree with Myvoice, that most Americans on the face of the facts would be predisposed to supporting the Palestinians, all things being equal. It is the Munichs, and the airline hijackings, and the suicide bombings that have closed the minds of Americans to the sufferings of the Palestinians. Literally, most would tell you that when a society stoops so low as to depend and endorse the suicide bombers, that they do not deserve a country, and that they would never achieve a society worthy of support.

Americans have no visceral love for the Israeli's. They abhor the tactics used by the Palestinians, and support the Israelis by default. There is absolutely nothing that can change this sense of morality in Americans. It is a cultural more which cannot be breached. Americans will increasingly support the Palestinians when the Palestinians abandon tactics which intentionally target everday people.

31

I agree with myvoice and OhioGuy. If the Palestinians stopped the tactics of which are stated above by OhioGuy I would fight vigorously against Israeli settlements. The settlements can be defeated but won't be until such tactics are disposed of, then the only thing standing in the way is the "Right of Return" which is different matter all together.
.

32

Tit for tat?

Whats a matta you CM?

An innocent child is killed and you call it "tit for tat?"

What school did you go to?

33

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
Tit for tat?

Whats a matta you CM?

An innocent child is killed and you call it "tit for tat?"

What school did you go to?
[/QUOTE]

I call it collateral damage...hey if that can work in Afghanistan then so be it in Israel too….

34

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by seeker: *

I call it collateral damage...hey if that can work in Afghanistan then so be it in Israel too….
[/QUOTE]

Some coldhearted people posting here.....

Some people call the actions of the Palestinians justifiable because of their sufferings. There is NO way any suffering can justify killing innocent children - period.

It is always so interesting for me seeing people having two measurements with which they measure the actions of others and the actions of those they support. You have to be consistent and denounce both wrongs.

35

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Old Man: *

Some coldhearted people posting here.....

Some people call the actions of the Palestinians justifiable because of their sufferings. There is NO way any suffering can justify killing innocent children - period.

It is always so interesting for me seeing people having two measurements with which they measure the actions of others and the actions of those they support. You have to be consistent and denounce both wrongs.
[/QUOTE]

can you justify killing of Palestinians?

36

ditooo :k:

37

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by seeker: *

can you justify killing of Palestinians?
[/QUOTE]

I condemn the indiscriminate killing and terrorising of the Palestinians by the Israeli government/troops as well as the killing and terrorising of Israeli civilians by terrorists.

I can also justify the killing of terrorists. Vermin needs to be exterminated.

You see, my logic and morals remain the same for both sides - apparently yours not....

38

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by The Old Man: *

I condemn the indiscriminate killing and terrorising of the Palestinians by the Israeli government/troops as well as the killing and terrorising of Israeli civilians by terrorists.

I can also justify the killing of terrorists. Vermin needs to be exterminated.

You see, my logic and morals remain the same for both sides - apparently yours not....
[/QUOTE]

so the israeli army which kills innocent Palestinians is terrorist too....and as HAMAS and Islamic Jihad have been declared terrorist organizations...so should be the israeli army....

39

An 8 year old Palestinian boy was shot to death today.....so where are the condemnations now o sanctimonious folk? Doesen't this need to stop too?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mufakkar: *
An 8 year old Palestinian boy was shot to death today.....so where are the condemnations now o sanctimonious folk? Doesen't this need to stop too?
[/QUOTE]

It has to stop - any VIABLE solutions?