anyone a gujar here? can anyone tell me about the caste gujar…i personally would ablish all this caste system crap…but…unfortunately the society we live in still places great emphasis on a person’s caste…
so what’s thought of gujars in pakistan???
Re: Gujars
Don't know what that is. If you would really like to abolish this caste system you shouldn;t care about what others have to say.
Re: Gujars
Group affiliation is very important for survival and competition...In our area, Gujars are cattle herders running dairy businesses...One section of them is Chuan Khel...Probably, this is corruption from Chuhan...In ancient times, they were called Garjaras...When White Huns invaded this region, they came with them...
Re: Gujars
Gujars are descendents of Khazars from Central Asia. The word Khazar was corrupted to Khajar, and then Gujar. Some Khazar tribes accompanied the Hephthalites (White Huns) in their invasions of northwest Southasia. Interestingly, the Persian name for Caspian Sea is Bahr-e-Khazar (i.e. sea of Khazars). The Khazars that migrated and settled in northwest Southasia were absorbed among the locals (Punjabis, etc). The remainder of Khazars in Central Asia invaded/migrated westwards and eventually were absorbed among the Slavs.
Re: Gujars
I am Gujjar :)
Gujjar (known as Gu*rjar in India) is also a derivative of the Persian word Gurjarya, which means Georgia. Georgia is right next to **Caspian Sea.*
There is a punjabi words.. garja or garjar (can't remember) which means to milk the cow. Somewhere through the history some people started referring to Gujjars as people who milk cows (doodwaala's), and this was set as the title given to them in the caste-system (which is false ofcourse).
Gujjars are known for their well-built bodies.
Gu*jraanwaala, Gujrkhan, Gujrat - all these places were found by Gujjars. Gujrat = **Land of Khazars*
Ch. Rehmat Ali was a Gujjar as well.
By the way, the caste-system doesn't exist in Pakistan (only in India). In Pakistan, most people use these just to identify each other's backgrounds - nothing more. Though, many people prefer marrying withing their clans. All of my direct ancestors (as far back as I can think of) have been Gujjars (did not mix in with other clans). I don't find anything wrong with this, since most people tend to stick with their ethnic groups anywhere in the world, nor do I find anything wrong with marriages between different clan members.
I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please ask.
Re: Gujars
It is true that some scholars do connect the name etymologically to "Gurjiya", the Persian name for Georgia, asserting that they were a Georgian contingent affiliated with the Hephthalites who invaded Pakistan region.
Though the "Khazar" theory is more popular. It is interesting to know that the name 'Khazar' seems to be tied to a Turkic verb meaning "wandering" ('gezer' in modern Turkish).
Re: Gujars
Who cares? All Punjabis look the same to me.
Chamaars, Rajputs, Gujjars and most Jatts all look the same to me whilst a few Jatts and few Sheikhs (ex-Brahmins) look Central Asian.
I think earlier on intermarriages must have occured with the locals even if now they just marry within their own clans because they look similar to other tribes in the region.
Re: Gujars
Maybe that's still true in tribal society in our rural areas but it's not true in Punjab let alone their cities or in the rest of the modern world, everyone is an individual and on their own and I myself rather like that, it’s more liberating than carrying all that unnecessary baggage.
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To a certain extent it makes sense what both you two are saying. I mean we need to be or any group for that matter, inorder to sustain our culture. On the other hand we have accept or rather adpat our way of life to modern times. It kind f reminds of greeks. You got to admire them, I have yet to come across a greek outside of his/her motherland (immigrants) that is not proud, well-versed and aware of his/her background.
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And many Punjabis look similar to Pashtuns, Sindhis, and others. By the way check out the following map and its pie-charts, the genetic studies on Pakistani population proves that Pashtuns, Sindhis, Punjabis, etc. are racially not that different. The varying shades of skin color are dependent on environmental exposure (sunlight/etc) and does not form a part of racial identity.
In the complete regional map the “green” (South Asian racial element) becomes more and more dominant in India in the eastern/southern direction and in most cases its almost 100% starting from central India all the way to its south. That also explains why Karachi with most of its population having north Indian Muslim migrants and their descendents have a greater South Asian racial element (though Indian Muslims have lesser of that than Indian Hindus). On the other hand, in Iran and Central Asia the South Asian racial element lessens in the western and northern directions, but the green is still in significant minority percentages in all of the region.
Re: Gujars
You either are just plain lying, or you have not been to Pakistan at all.
And what kind of stupid map have you posted? Where are Punjabis in it, who constitute 60% of Pakistan?
It’s just plain amazing. Parsis are there, but not Punjabis?!
And Parsis are shown to be more than 50% “South Asians” when everyone knows that Parsis are Persians, in other words, “West Eurasians”, as that map calls it.
Re: Gujars
I always looked at Punjabis as mere Punjabis. I did not know that tribe affiliation is still quite strong in Punjab. I have a Jutt Punjabi friend. In reply to the question who he is, he does not say that he is Punjabi, rather he says that he is JUTT. He also told me about a love-affair of his friend where the two could not marry. I asked why, and he said it's because they had different "castes" or "biraderi"es.
It was kinda shocking to hear such things. But interesting exeprience anyway. One learns new things everyday.
Re: Gujars
...
Bro that's your wishful thinking, 90% of Punjabis and 90% of Pashtuns don't look alike. Punjabi, Sindhi and Karachi Urdus are darker skinned than Pashtuns and that's not because of "environmental exposure" but because of genetics, Pashtuns and Desis (Punjabi, Sindhi, Urdu) living in the same environment whether that be in the UK or Karachi will still look different, just look at a Pashtun rag picker child and then a Urdu/Punjabi businesswoman when the latter forgets to use their "fair & lovely crème" in Karachi/Lahore and compare their skin tones, don't worry there's nothing wrong with being dark skinned.
I'm sick of hearing Pakistanis are Caucasoid and Indians all Dravidians. South Indians who are pretty much pure Dravidian are different but North Indians and Paki Punjabis/Paki Sindhis/Paki Urdus are pretty much the same race (mixture of Aryan and Dravidian) and share a similar culture. Sindhis and Urdus are totally indistinguishable even from South Indians a lot of the time and Punjabis are more Caucasoid than other Desi ethnic groups but still not significantly different, even amongst Punjabis tribes such as Rajput could pass off quite easily as South Indian.
The only considerable similarity the western side of Pakistan has with the eastern is religion, other than that our looks, culture, history, heritage, language, dress, art, cuisine, values and traditions are all very different, the few cultural simialrities are very recent (Punjabis and Sindhis leaving their Dhotis and adopting our Shalwars or the Desisation of Pashtuns by imperial Urdu culture of Pakistan). The only difference I see between the eastern half of Pakistan and north-western India is religion, saying that you have Muslims in India and I see NO difference except for a label between a Muslim from Delhi and a Muslim from Lahore or a Muslim from Karachi and a Muslim from Bombay.
I'm a firm believer in Islam so I do believe in unity despite our ethnic differences because those things come second but don't try and forge your race because it wont earn you anymore respect, just be content with who you are. Islam is enough as a bond for Pak don't try inventing fake similarities and expect us to believe you and for your own benefit let go of your inferiority complex, being dark skinned is cool, don't be ashamed of who you are.
Re: Gujars
I don’t like the way Greeks are so arrogant, just like Arabs, French, Persians and us Pashtuns.
Thin line between pride and bigotry so forget pride, just be content (not proud, not ashamed) of what one is and accept weaknesses and be open to change for the better, accept that cultuiral evoloution happens with everyone and not try and resist it unless it is for the worse, obviously don’t forget our ethnic identity especially when living in the relative geographical location and even when living abroad we should remember it as part of our history but accept that we’ve left it behind and try to assimilate to where we’ve moved, like for Jehovah’s sake my Pashtun brothers when you live in Britain there’s nothing wrong with wearing jeans and t-shirt instead of shalwar kameez/peran tumban you know, uffff it’s not Kandahar or Peshawar, I saw an old man the other day wearing patu and everything, I swear if I was white I would have egged him and told him to go back home. 
Re: Gujars
Its just plain facts.. genetic studies cannot lie! Dont be mad if the different ethnic groups are genetically similar. The genetic chart for the Punjabis is very similar to Sindhis/Pashtuns and the complete study can be found in University of Chicago’s journal or straight at the American Society of Human Genetics. I had scanned the incomplete map. Parsis are there since they form a minority population of Gujarat and Sindh.. and were part of the genetic studies.. what makes you think that Parsis did not get mixed with South Asians after living for centuries there.. The “South Asian” racial element is found in most of Southwest/Central Asia (though as a minority in percentile). There is no such thing as “pure” race !
Re: Gujars
I have never said that any people or race is superior or inferior from the other! Race is just a part of one’s identity de facto… to deny this is the denial of one’s identity. Being racially different or similar does not equate to racism or superiority/inferiority… it just defines the characteristics of a people.
Racial differences between Indians and Pakistanis:
About 70% of Pakistanis are Caucasoid by race, 20% Australoid- Negroid, and 10% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Pakistanis are tall with fair skin complexion, similar to Middle Eastern and Mediterranean peoples. While the racial features of each ethnic group are not uniform, Pashtuns are the most Caucasoid, followed by Kashmiris, Baluchis, north Punjabis, and then Sindhis, Seraikis, Urdu-speakers, etc. The Australoid-Negroid and Mongoloid racial elements are quite infused within the dominant Caucasoid genes among Pakistanis, however there are some that have retained their distinct racial characteristics.
About 50% of Indians are Australoid-Negroid by race, 35% Caucasoid, and 15% Mongoloid in their overall genetic composition. Majority of Indians are darker in their skin complexion, with wider noses, shorter heights, etc. The Australoid-Dravidoid racial element dominates among the lower caste Indians, South Indians, Eastern and Central Indians, etc. The Caucasoid racial element dominates in Northwest Indians and higher caste Indians. The Mongoloid racial element dominates in Northeast Indians and border regions with China.
Obviously, both countries have distinct racial identities. A common international perception based on observance of physical features is that most Pakistanis are lighter skinned than most Indians. Most Pakistanis resemble the looks of peoples inhabiting on its western borders and beyond. Indeed, many Pakistanis also resemble many Northwest Indians or higher caste Indians, but those are a minority in India. Similarly, a few people of Pakistan resemble peoples of South India, lower caste Indians, Northeast India, etc. but they are a minority in Pakistan. And besides, let’s say, if some Saudis look similar to the French that does not make them one people, same applies here between Indians and Pakistanis.
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It’s interesting how Pakistanis are a blend of many different races. However, majority of Pakistanis are racially Caucasoids.
According to the genetic studies:
"Most Pakistani populations cluster with South Asian and Middle Eastern populations, and are close to Northern African, Central Asian and European populations, thus showing a general similarity with geographically close populations.
By the way, the definition of Caucasoid race taken from Encyclopedia Britannica:
"Caucasoid describes humans primarily from Europe, the Middle East (Southwestern Asia), North Africa, northwestern part of the Indian subcontinent and parts of Central Asia, and is one of the four traditional major races recognized by physical anthropologists.
"The Caucasoid or white race is not defined by social opinions about pale “whiteness”, which are a folk taxonomy, but are based upon the shared anatomical features of Western Eurasian humans. The term applies to one of a varying number of races defined by various racial theories.
"Craniometry is based solely on skull shapes, and does not take into account other characteristics such as pigmentation or hair texture. Caucasoids present the lowest degree of projection of the alveolar bones which contain the teeth, and a notable size promenence of the crainom and forehead region. Caucasoids show a projection of the midfacial region which, among modern humans is common.
“Caucasoids also possess a Western Eurasian dental pattern, where the incisor teeth are more pointed and sharper than those of other races.”
Additionally, according to H. H. Risley, Caucasians are also mostly fine-nosed per his data:
Race -------------- Nasal Index ----------- Nasal Type
Pakistani Sindhi (Rajput) – 71.6 – fine-nosed sub-leptorrhine
Pakistani Punjabi (Jat) ---- 68.8 – fine-nosed leptorrhine
Indian Dravidian (Kadian) – 89.8 – broad-nosed platyrrhine
By comparison, the French of Paris average 69.4, while pure Africans average between 90 and 100.
Re: Gujars
Please don’t make a fool of yourself. You earlier said that many Punjabis and Pathans look similar. That’s the most stupid thing to say. No need to look at genetic studies. If you have EVER been to Pakistan then just look around you.
You should not make others waste their time on your Utopias.
- Beta, what is “south asian” racial element?
- I asked you about Punjabis not included in that racial map, you did not comment.
- Parsis may have married some Sindhis and Gujratis after living here for many years, but mostly they did not marry outside their community, and that is why they should be more closer genetically to Persians than any other nationality.
Re: Gujars
faruk khan this has nothing to do arrogance. Yeh I hate arrogance too, but you got to admire there sense of pride and togetherness. I don't like chauvinists either.
Re: Gujars
ahahhahahaha, its interesting to read about people debating such stupid things like who has "dark" and "light" genes
Today in Toronto you are all terrorist towelheads and no one cares what your genes (or jeans) are Dark, Light, Diesel or D&G
ITs all the same losers, get over it
Re: Gujars
^ thats is a stupid way of looking at things. Yeh arguing about skin colour is odd I agree. BUt on the flip side I can go to a european forum or an american one and say your are all white crackers to me. However that would be ignorant. I think discussing history, bachkground etc is great, but skin colour and what not irks me, as it at times tends to lead to superiority and inferiority complexes.