Greatest All-Rounders (based on each players career peaks)

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1

What is the best way to gauge a players greatness? His career average? The average of his top 10 performances?

Personally i believe that a players career average can be misleading due to
frequent dips and peaks in form due to medical or even personal reasons. I
think the best way to judge a players greatness is to work out when he hit
peak form and then look at his figures to see just how good he was when he was on fire. After all when we choose a best XI we are assuming each player is performing to the best of his abilities.

Each player should be judged whilst performing at their peak level over a sustained period of 6 years. Anything less than 6 years wouldnt be a long enough period to ascertain true greatness and anything longer than 6 years would be unfairly weighted in favour of those players who never suffered a serious injury during their career.

I’m putting my theory to the test with a list of 6 all rounders, i will only be using players who have retired and only one from each country in the top 8. I’ve missed out SL and SA because the players suggested to me as their greatest all rounders havent retired as yet. The players featured will be…

Australia - Keith Miller
England - Ian Botham
India - Kapil Dev
New Zealand - Richard Hadlee
Pakistan - Imran Khan
West Indies - Gary Sobers

…I chose all rounders because i can check for their batting peaks as well as their bowling peaks and even a combined peak. This should test the theory better than just comparing bowlers or batsmen. Each six year peak begins on the 1st day of the first year specified and ends on the last day of the last year specified, I’ve taken great pains to check every six year period of each players career and pick out the best one’s for each discipline and for the combined discipline. Let the games begin!!!

Batting

Lets begin with comparing each players 6 year peak as a batsman, to qualify as an all time great batsman the bar is set at an average of 45 runs. This isnt as high (50 runs) as some would set but remember these arent dedicated batsmen so a little discretion should be used. Below i will list each players batting average during their 6 year peak as a batsman, a dotted line will divide the players into all time great batsmen and the rest…

71.37 - Sobers (1958 - 1963)
52.90 - Imran (1986 - 1991)

40.02 - Miller (1947 - 1952)
37.08 - Botham (1978 - 1983)
34.43 - Hadlee (1982 - 1987)
34.25 - Kapil (1982 - 1987)

…from the selection only two can be considered genuinely great batsmen and guaranteed a place on their batting skills alone. Imran has a very impressive 52.90, whilst Gary Sobers has an incredible 71.37. At the peak of every players skills as a batsman, only Imran Khan and Gary Sobers make the grade leaving the nearest contender (Miller) trailing by 12.88 runs to Imran and an incredible 31.35 runs (close to Kapil and Hadlee’s peak batting average) to Sobers. Round 1 winners are Sobers and Imran!

Bowling

As test bowlers the most important aspect of their bowling would be their strike rate and then their average. The benchmark here will be set at a S/R below 55 combined with an average below 25. Once again the bowling figures below are from each players 6 year peak as a bowler and not their career figures. This time there will be two dotted lines, the players above the first one are all-time great bowlers (going by their figures) and the players above the second dotted line and below the first one will be great bowlers. Round 2… Fight…

154 wkts at an avg of 14.85 with a S/R of 40.9 for Imran (1981 - 1986)
192 wkts at an avg of 18.31 with a S/R of 46.5 for Hadlee (1980 - 1985)

267 wkts at an avg of 24.99 with a S/R of 53.5 for Botham (1978 - 1983)

~90 wkts at an avg of 21.86 with a S/R of 59.3 for Miller (1947 - 1952)
239 wkts at an avg of 26.94 with a S/R of 53.6 for Kapil (1979 - 1984)
~89 wkts at an avg of 27.29 with a S/R of 72.2 for Sobers (1962 - 1967)

…Imran, Hadlee and Botham were all great bowlers at their peak but Hadlee and Imran were something else. During their respective 6 year peaks, Hadlee and Imran were all-time great bowlers and would probably make any team in the world as strike bowlers. Just look at that 40.9 S/R maintained by Imran for 6 years!!!

Kapil and Miller were both unlucky to miss out because Kapil made the grade with his strike rate and Miller with his average but they didnt make the grade with their combined figures. Round 2 winners are Imran, Hadlee, and Botham.

All Rounders

The only player to reach the benchmark based on his 6 year peaks as both a batsman and a bowler was Imran Khan with a batting average of nearly 53 and a bowling average of 14.85 combined with a strike rate of 40.9, he really was an awesome player but does he win and is he the greatest all rounder ever?

I think we should have one more round to decide because as impressive as those figures are his bowling peak was from 1981 to 1986 and his batting peak was from 1986 to 1991, so although at different stages in his career Imran was amazing at both disciplines. A truly great all rounder is one who is great at both disciplines at the same time, so lets have the deciding round and see who was the greatest all rounder of all time based on each players 6 year peak.

Since we are looking at each players all round capabilities, i’ll relent a little and lower the batting average and raise the S/R. The benchmark for the greatest all rounders will be a batting average of 40 and bowling figures with a S/R of below 60 combined with an average below 25!

46.21 Batt avg. 167 wkts at an avg of 16.89 with a S/R of 42.8 for Imran
(1982 - 1987)
40.02 Batt avg. ~90 wkts at an avg of 21.86 with a S/R of 59.3 for Miller
(1947 - 1952)

34.43 Batt avg. 218 wkts at an avg of 18.76 with a S/R of 46.2 for Hadlee
(1982 - 1987)
65.51 Batt avg. ~89 wkts at an avg of 27.29 with a S/R of 72.2 for Sobers
(1962 - 1967)
37.08 Batt avg. 267 wkts at an avg of 24.99 with a S/R of 53.5 for Botham
(1978 - 1983)
29.25 Batt avg. 239 wkts at an avg of 26.94 with a S/R of 53.6 for Kapil
(1979 - 1984)

…Whilst there is no doubt in my mind that ALL the above were explosive match winners for their respective teams and each of them deserve to be called great all rounders, there are only two (Imran and Miller) that met the benchmark set for the ‘greatest’ all rounders.

Among the others some excelled in batting (Sobers) and others were incredible bowlers (Hadlee) but the greatest all rounder of them all is Imran Khan. In this last round he is head and shoulders above his nearest rival (Miller) for the all rounder slot in an all time test side, Imran has a batting average 6.19 runs above his nearest rival (second only to Sobers overall) and his bowling average is 4.97 runs below Miller combine that with a strike rate 16.5 balls (nearly 3 overs) less than the next best all rounder. Imran at his peak was the best all rounder that we have ever seen but looking at his peak bowling figures it makes me wonder just how close he is to being the best fast bowler of all time too!!!

In conclusion I’d like to see peoples feedback on what they think about using each players 6 year peak as a measure for that players success!!!

2

My friend, when you say Greatest of all time, atleast include their whole career not just the peaks.

3

imran khan is definitely the best all-rounder....

but i always thought imran and sobers were on equal levels with imran taking an advantage with bowling and sobers with his batting....

but u know there is a reason he is called The Great Khan.... ;)

4

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
My friend, when you say Greatest of all time, atleast include their whole career not just the peaks.
[/QUOTE]

even when i say Greatest of All Time (based on their career peaks)???

Sobers is over rated as an all-rounder. He was an all-time great batsman of that there is no doubt but even at his bowling peak he was a mediocre bowler.

Imran averaged 52.77 with the bat for 10 years and 1 months (Dec 81 - Jan 92) and with the ball he had figures of...

306 wkts @ 19.89 avg w/ 47.7 SR and 2.50 Eco (Jan 77 to Apr 88)

...for 11 years and 3 months!!!

Imran is definitely the greatest all rounder of all time.

He sustained a 52.77 average with the bat for over 10 years and with the ball he sustained an average below 20 w/ a SR below 50 for 11 and a quarter years!!!

Can any other all-rounder boast figures like these?

I really think that Pakistani talent is hugely under-estimated!

5

Mercenary Dear…

U r gr8 :k:

Zabardast Effort…

MY RAM is not that good to remember the Records… BUT.. My All time Gr8 is IMRAN regardless of his figures :smiley:

But.. sometimes ppl compare him.. for records and then.. I dont have anything to say bcoz.. I dont remeber the Records… NOW I will show them to Read this :smiley:

Tnx alot for Ur Effort…

I call my Self.. The Biggest Ever LOVER of Imran… :love:

6

I totally disagree with you when you say that the true worth can be calculated from top performances.

And I think the example that should be enough to clear my point is of Shahid Afridi. Take his 10 Best performances and he is the Best player that cricketing world have ever produced. But thats not the case, he is not even an average good player when you take a look at his career.

What is important is that how consistant a batsman is, and how good he plays according to conditions and his batting order. And also his adoptibility to conditions and situation.

I should not go in much detail cuz cricketing rules and criticism is something that I can talk about all day non stop.

:D :D Thanks for leting me know about this thread Golden. :D

7

And Don Bradman did'nt even include Imran Khan in his list of probables for his All Time XI.

He had Kapil, Hadlee, Botham....but no Imran.

8

This shows how English was this Bradman guy :p

A great is always great. There is no doubt that ppl used to come to stadium or glued to the TV sets to watch Imran. Neither Kapil nor Botham had charasmatic personalities and thrill in the game. Hadlee was a different case, he was gem of a fast bowler and I still like to watch him running for disaster. I am not saying that Kapil or Botham were not great, they are too one of the best all rounders, but Imran stands out of the mob when it comes to thrill in the game of cricket. His performances, his captaincy, his furious nature in bowling and fight back quality in field is unmatched by the rest. He was always optimistic, I had never seen him down even when Pak lost a match. He was different and he made the difference. Nobody could earn World Cup for Pakistan like he did, with not so experienced team.

9

Imran Khan surely the best all rounder without any doubt:k:

:jhanda:

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Black Mamba: *
I totally disagree with you when you say that the true worth can be calculated from top performances.

And I think the example that should be enough to clear my point is of Shahid Afridi. Take his 10 Best performances and he is the Best player that cricketing world have ever produced. But thats not the case, he is not even an average good player when you take a look at his career.

What is important is that how consistant a batsman is, and how good he plays according to conditions and his batting order. And also his adoptibility to conditions and situation.

I should not go in much detail cuz cricketing rules and criticism is something that I can talk about all day non stop.

:D :D Thanks for leting me know about this thread Golden. :D
[/QUOTE]

Above is the comparison over the best consecutive 6 year period of each player's career. Try doing Afridi's record for 10 consecutive ODI's and u'll see the difference straight away.

Next time try actually READING the analysis before jumping in!

11

Imran was without doubt the best of the bunch. Not only was he a great all rounder and player, but you guys neglect the most important thing about him that made him great. He was a great leader. Kind of like a cricketing Mark Messier (if anybody knows who he is :) )
His record speaks for itself and on top of all that he retired after winnig us the World Cup, what more can anyone ask for.

12

well dude, was ^ written by you? if it was, then let me suggest you on something, when you meantion two conditions, you should stick to them later and not bring in a third condition like you have done with the 6 years one.
So yes when I saw this and saw that you have rejected the first condition I didnt read it all cuz it was obvious that you are going with the second condition. So if you had the 6 year plan in mind too then you should have brought it up at start along with the career avg and top 10 performances thing.

laikin tension nahiN lainay ka bhai. :nono:

aap ne tau lagta hai dil par hi lai li meri baat.

13

its called 'setting the scene'

i was just mentioning different ways of gauging a players greatness. In the next few lines (which you failed to quote) I said...

[QUOTE]
Personally i believe that a players career average can be misleading due to frequent dips and peaks in form due to medical or even personal reasons. I think the best way to judge a players greatness is to work out when he hit peak form and then look at his figures to see just how good he was when he was on fire. After all when we choose a best XI we are assuming each player is performing to the best of his abilities.

Each player should be judged whilst performing at their peak level over a sustained period of 6 years .
[/QUOTE]

The first few lines were just a few different methods used by 'other people' and if you had bothered to actually read the analysis and not skim it then we wouldnt be having this conversation.

Its not a question of taking what you said personally, it just seems that rather than reading the analysis you have just been told by some1 about the positionings of the players (which u disagreed with) and you have spoken out against the method used without even understanding it!!!