Google Islam

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21

Re: Google Islam

read it yourself, reaserach meanings yourself and make up your minds yourself.

Others are as likely to make mistakes and misinterpret as you are.

But you are more likely to be honest to yourself than others will be towards you.

22

I had asked to pick a verse and the hadith you have linked to in this thread so we can discuss. We cannot go about having a discussion with links to huge amounts of references.

Now can we do that? I would like to see how much you really understand on your own not piggy backing on articles. Now are you upto the challenge or not?

23

:salam: Mr. Popat

I know you are quite an intelligent brother and I have seen discuss here quite often.

I have one question for you though, which may lead to further discussion. Can Islam and Quran be understood and followed without any relevance given to its historical context and timeline of revelation?

Second question, can the Quranic arabic be understood correctly based on only the modern day arabic lexicon?

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Walikum assalam USResident,
No sir, Quran or Islam cannot be understood without any relevance given to its historical context, nor is Quranic arabic be understood correctly based on only the modern day Arabic lexicon. However, it is ok to go to an aalim to understand quran better, but if his interpretation goes against other verses of Quran or contradicts, it should not be taken as the right interpretation. Quran, as we all know is beyond any contradictions.

Brother, my intention is never to be against everyone here.. if you think my thinking on this matter is wrong, i’d be more than happy to change my thinking. I dont come here for any sort of competition or to prove my point and neglect other’s point of view… you have strong argument and ill tell you that I was wrong…

Im looking forward for your questions now.

25

Certainly. Lets start with the 4 sacred months according to Hadith and then according to Quran.

The Sacred Months according to the majority of the Muslim World are Rajab, Zul-Qe`dah, Zul-Hijjah, and Muharram (7th, 11th, 12th and 1st months of the Islamic Calendar) according to their ‘authentic’ hadith reproduced below.
**Narrated Abu Bakra:

The Prophet said. "(The division of time has turned to its original form which was current when Allah created the Heavens and the Earths. The year is of twelve months, out of which four months are sacred: Three are in succession Dhul-Qa' da, Dhul-Hijja and Muharram, and (the fourth is) Rajab of (the tribe of) Mudar which comes between Jumadi-ath-Thaniyah and Sha ban."

Sahih Bukhari, Book 54:Volume 4, Book 54, Number 419**

As you can see, the Sacred Months are not consecutive, but split up.

*Sacred Months According to the Quran*

A careful study of the Quran shows the Sacred Months should be Zul-Hijjah, Muharram, Safar, and Rabi I (12th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd months). We learn from Sura 9, verses 1-5 that these months are correct because they are consecutive.
*[9:1]An ultimatum is herein issuedfrom GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you. *

*[9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers. *

[9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution.

*[9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous. *

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. **
As you can see, an ultimatum was issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers on the ‘great day of pilgrimage’ or Hajj. From that moment, they were permitted to roam the earth freely for 4 months. Then, GOD says that once the ‘SACRED MONTHS *ARE* PASSED*’ you may kill the idol worshipers if they haven’t signed a peace treaty with you. Hajj starts in the month of Zul-Hijjah (12),* and the sacred months are 4 consecutive months after that.** Therefore, Zul-Hijjah, Muharram, Safar, and Rabi I (12th, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd months) are the 4 Sacred Months.

So, the entire Muslim world has altered the Sacred months. Knowing this information, Sura 9, verse 37 becomes crystal clear those who follow the hadith over the Quran are demonstrating excessive disbelief in GOD and the Quran. [9:37]Altering the Sacred Months is a sign of excessive disbelief; it augments the straying of those who have disbelieved. They alternate the Sacred Months and the regular months, while preserving the number of months consecrated by GOD. They thus violate what GOD has consecrated. Their evil works are adorned in their eyes. GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.
The fact the Quran states what the 4 Sacred months are. Then, 22 verses later GOD informs us that those who change the sacred months, while maintaining the total number of months (4) is a sign of EXCESSIVE disbelief, and this is EXACTLY what has happened in the Islamic world! These verses are NOT multi-meaning verses. They are very, very clear. For those who do not speak Arabic, take any translation and you will see the meaning is the same.

So, I ask you USResident.....who is correct? The so-called 'scholars' who uphold hadiths that caused the innovation in the first place, or GOD and HIS revelations (Quran) delivered through the Prophet Muhammad? Naturally, GOD is correct. If you say otherwise, you are justifying an innovation. An innovation GOD knew would happen (Sura 9, verse 37) after the Prophet died. An innovation created ONLY in hadiths that dictates excessive disbelief (according to GOD in Quran).

Keep in mind, this is not my opinion. The information is straight from the Quran. So, if you say this is my own interpretation, you are simply diverting attention from the fact that you have no argument against the Word of GOD (Quran).

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i agree with the first part of your post that we should research our beliefs without twisting it to suit our needs but i disagree with trusting one scholar or alim for all guidence, remember the warning to ahle kitab in Quran ? their clergy will lead them to ruin as they change the religion of God.

furthermore the madhabs are a creation after 150-200yrs after the prophet, how can one be authentic and others not ?

its important to study from nonpartisan sources the origins of historical writings in islam seerah hadith rijal before we can pass a judgement on which madhab is right or wrong

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**
**USResident,

I did what you requested and am waiting for your counter-argument? Why the delay?****

28

Yo are you a Submitter (RK follower)?

29

Re: Google Islam

'Submitter' is the English translation of the Arabic word 'Muslim'. So, am I a Submitter to GOD? Absolutely. Prophet Muhammad followed the Quran. Rashad Khalifa followed the Quran. I follow the Quran. All of us are 'Submitters to GOD'. All of us are Muslim.

However, what I believe does not change the facts of my original posting that hadiths are the major cause of the corruption of Islam for they directly contradict the Quran.

30

Dear brother ... this isn't the only thing I do. Sit tight and wait.

31

This is all I wanted to confirm as I had not thought you to be one who rejects hadith and other Islamic history (you may be selective but not outright trashing everything altogether). The rest of your post I believe is directed towards Br. Psyah.

32

:salam:

Your post is such a good example of why it is necessary to know the history and ahadith in order to connect events to their proper timelines. Let me first point out to you a very grave mistake you have made in your argument.

The beginning verses of Surah Tauba were revealed for a different incident and the verses 36 - 37 were revealed on a different occasion.

The begining verses of Surah Tauba were revealed during the Hajj season during which the Prophet SAW did not participate and had sent ALi RA as his messenger to the people who were led by Abu Bakr RA. This is called Bara’ah. The Prophet SAW had chosen Ali RA in his stead so people would accept the revelation of the Quranic verses as it was customary in Arabs to accept a close family member equivalant to whom he is related to. The begining verses of Surah Tauba are not defining the sacred months at all but rather refering to those sacred months which are already in progression as it was the season for Hajj in Arabia. Further the verses just defined the timeline for the general treaties to end i.e. four months. It additionally specifies that any specific treaties with timelines will stay in effect unles violated.

It was already customary in Arabs to regard the months of Dhul Qadah, Dhul Hijjah and Muharram as sacred, three months in succession. In case you didn’t know there were also factions among the Arabs who held eight months sacred. You can check out Basl for information on this. Now these months were not chosen to be sacred at random. In 14th century Arabia it took quite a deal to travel for Hajj, which is why the Arabs did not fight before, after and during the month of Hajj.

Now to the verses 36-37, these verses were actually revealed to the Prophet SAW during his own Hajj. He SAW performed Hajj after the incident associated with the beginnig verses of Surah Tauba. So the four months that you are refering to as being sacred based on the beginning verses of Surah Tauba were not even legislated for the muslims in exactitude till later. This is where your mistake lies and obviously because of your lack of understanding of revelation timelines. You are understanding and related verses of Quran without taking into account their periods of revelation. Now pay attention to what you said, they CHANGE the sacred months yet the translation you have posted says ALTERNATE sacred month, which is perfectly in line with historical literature on this piece of revelation. The Arabs used to altenate the month of Muharram as being sacred one year and not sacred the following year. This was done pettily to pursue ongoing tribal fighting. That is what the verses was talking about.

Here’s something else for you to chew on, the 4th sacred month defined for the muslims is in the middle of the lunar Islamic calendar year. It was meant for the Arabs coming from the farthest corners of Arabia to perform Umrah. Now if they were consecutive none of the Arabs would come for Umrah when they just had the chance for Hajj a month before.

Anyways, I hope you see the mistake in your method of understanding Quranic verses. Chronology of revelation is quite important before yo go about connecting and relating verses together.

33

Above you have justified altering the sacred months. However, you failed to read the entire verse. You can rationalize all you want. You can use Bukhari rumors to justify it all you want. But the verse says that those who alternate the sacred months are the ones VIOLATING what GOD has consecrated, and those who do this have their works adorned in their eyes. In other words, those who alternate the sacred months believe they are right, when they are wrong. **[9:37] Altering the Sacred Months is a sign of excessive disbelief; it augments the straying of those who have disbelieved. They alternate the Sacred Months and the regular months, while preserving the number of months consecrated by GOD. They thus violate what GOD has consecrated. Their evil works are adorned in their eyes. GOD does not guide the disbelieving people.
**As well, the reason there was no fighting for 4 months as stated in 9:1-5 is because they were “SACRED” just like the verses say, and we know from 9:36 that fighting is not permitted during the sacred months unless they violate their treaty and fight you anyways. *[9:36] The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD’s law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; **you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months.
You can hide behind your ‘authentic’ hearsay rumors all you want, but nothing shall abrogate the Word of GOD. Your ‘authentic’ hearsay does not change the fact the Quran says those with excessive disbelief alternate the sacred months. **[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. . **
The irony of all this is that you believe I am astray because I trust and believe the Word of GOD (Quran) that 100% came from the Prophet. While you believe you are guided for trusting and believing hadiths that might or might not have come from the Prophet according to unauthorized non-messengers like Bukhari, Hanbal, and Ahmad etc. You take a questionable source (hadith) over a 100% proven source (Quran). Although, I understand that you cannot see the truth because your works are adorned in your eyes, just like 9:37 says about those who alternate the sacred months.

34

^^
Let me give translation of the verse 9:37 again

[QUOTE]

009.037
Maulvi Sher Ali:
Surely, the postponement of a Sacred Month is an addition to disbelief. Those who disbelieve are led astray thereby. They allow it one year and forbid it another year, that they may agree in the number of the months which Allah has made sacred, and thus may make lawful what Allah has forbidden. The evil of their deeds is made to seem fair to them. And Allah guides not the disbelieving people.

YUSUFALI:
Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

PICKTHAL:
Postponement (of a sacred month) is only an excess of disbelief whereby those who disbelieve are misled; they allow it one year and forbid it (another) year, that they may make up the number of the months which Allah hath hallowed, so that they allow that which Allah hath forbidden. The evil of their deeds is made fairseeming unto them. Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.

*SHAKIR: *
Postponing (of the sacred month) is only an addition in unbelief, wherewith those who disbelieve are led astray, violating it one year and keeping it sacred another, that they may agree in the number (of months) that Allah has made sacred, and thus violate what Allah has made sacred; the evil of their doings is made fairseeming to them; and Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.

[/QUOTE]

this verse refers to a long standing custom among Arabs. The three successive sacred months 'Dhul-Qaddah, Dhul-Hijjah and Moharram' seemed to them too long a time to refrain from predatory expeditions. In order to free themselves from the restrictions, they sometimes treat a sacred month like an ordinary one and ordinary month like a sacred one.

35

I feel as if your reply is coming from someone who has been backed into a corner. Loosen up.

I didn't deny anything from the Quran anywhere however you are not able to make a proper counter argument without falsifying that I am denying something from the Quran. I merely gave you the correct chronologically known historical significance of the verses 36-37.

Even though Br. Chugtai has posted the more authentic translations of the verses still going by what you have posted, the verse uses the word ALTERNATE ... so can you elaborate which Islamic month was alternated? Clearly there is no verse in the Quran which gives account of the particular months name. So the behavior defined in the Quran is to alterbate, which is clearly in contrast to the accusation you are levying ... that the order has been changed and preserved altogether. The Quran says nothing about that. Interestingly you have such a blind eye, your claims are that the months were changed as a result of following ahadith which I'm sure in your opinion came into existence 1-2 centuries after the demise of the Prophet SAW yet the verse of the Quran is refering to the Arab tradition of alternating of a particular sacred month in the present time of its revelation. Hardly anything to connect the two things. So how is it possible that the muslims could have changed the sacred months in the life of the Prophet SAW?

I think you cannot answer these questions without changing your stance. Shall we move on to your next point. Please post what you want to discuss next.

36

I'm not backed into a corner. Sura 9:1-5 clearly shows what the sacred months are. 9:36 shows we are not to fight during the 4 sacred months, which is why 9:1-5 says to wait 4 months, which are stated as the Sacred months. Then, the very next verse, 9:37 says that those who alternate the 4 sacred months is a sign of excessive disbelief. I'm using the Quran, the proven word of GOD that we KNOW came from the prophet. You are using 'possible' sayings of the prophet through third, fourth, and fifth party information. It is hearsay. It is rumors. Yet, you are using these 'long standing scholarly opinions and beliefs' as correct, which, by default, you are saying the Quran, the Word of GOD, is NOT correct. I beg to differ.

There is a reason why GOD says in the Quran to look at things in light of the Quran and things will become clear. It does not say to look at the Quran in light of Bukhari (not a messenger of GOD) hadiths. Clearly, the Quran takes precedence. Obviously, you feel otherwise. ..... Remember, history books are always written by the victors, and guess what?! The victors always depict themselves as the ones who are 'right'. The bottom line is do you trust Word of GOD (Quran), or the words of men (Bukhari hadiths). It is as simple as that.

Peace

37

Dear brother

You cannot even give the names of all 12 Islamic months from the Quran. Kindly provide complementing verses from the Quran for Surah Tauba verses 1-5 and 36-37 which even indicate the names of the months being refered to in these verses. This should be a good exercise for you because you'll have to get those from the very literature you are turning a blind eye to.

Let me add some more to dent your arguments. Hadith collections existed even during the time of the Prophet SAW. They were just codified and sorted into jurisprudence less than a century after the Prophet SAW demise. The Muwatta of Malik came out in less than a century. The reason for the origin of the hadith collections was because it became the most sought after and esteemed field of study for the muslims after the demise of the Prophet SAW not because people wanted to setup a parallel to the Quran. That is how the science of hadith developed.

Even the Quran was only formally codified after the demise of the Prophet SAW though it existed in scattered form much similar to the way many companions had kept their private journals/collections of hadith. Bukhari was the culmination when the science of hadith reached its peak not its origin.

Your not even able to backup the translations you are posting. Now lets not divert the topic. So far you have not countered any omf my arguments with credible evidence. Your only posting Quranic verses out of context with no relevance to their chronology and calling that a winning argument. I think it would be better to move on to your next point of liking because your clearly out of gas on this one. Shall we?

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Re: Google Islam

submitmj ... I will wait for your next point of debate.

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Your blind obedience to Bukhari & misguided 'scholars' never ceases to amaze me. You tell me that I am quoting verses 'out of context', yet they are very clear and self explanatory. The bottom line is the Sacred Months are consecutive according to Quran (9:1-5). There is no way around it. They are very, very clear verses. 9:36-37 says those who change alternate the sacred months are the evil ones. The Quran says they are consecutive, Hadiths say they are not. You would have me and everyone on this forum believe that 200 year old hearsay (Bukhari Hadiths) is MORE ACCURATE than GOD's proven Word, the QURAN?! Your trust in GOD is non-existent if you believe men know better than GOD Almighty.

Your 'scholars', through hadiths have altered the sacred months, the Quran says only the disbelievers do this, and yet, here you are quoting questionable hadiths and 'long standing scholarly' opinions to justify what the Quran condemns. You can use all the eloquent words and arguments you like, but NOTHING shall abrogate the word of GOD (Quran). If you can justify alternating the sacred months when the Quran clearly condemns it, than you can justify ANYTHING! It does not matter what the Quran says, it is not enough for you. So, debating with you is absolutely useless as your works are adorned in your eyes.

40

Dear brother

Is this the only answer yo have? You can't seem to say anything other than making accusations. It is not for me to decide this debate neither for you. Cyberspace ... guppies on this forum can read both our opinions and judge what they agree with for themselves. We need not judge for them. You have not added a single new point in all your replies to my arguments. The verses of the Quran are clear and nothing I have stated has been in denial of anything in the Quran. You on the other hand have not posted anything to backup your claims. You cannot even give me names of 12 Islamic months from the Quran. You are helpless in supporting your arguments without refering to the ahadith. Pity for you.

You say the 4 consecutive months are sacred, then bring me the names of all those 4 consecutive months from the Quran, will you please? Its time you put your money where your mouth is. Don't come back with the same answer that I am a believer or hearsay and hadith were written 200 years later and Quran is clear and I'm an idiot. Stop making a fool of yourself in this forum.

It would be quite cowardly of you to decide for yourself and not continue to debate with your next point. I pity you. I thought I would be debating with one of calibre. I'm disappointed. Do you really have what it takes to go to the next point or not?