God, AIDS and sex

[jaanaan]

ever since the advent of AIDS that religious community has believed that it is spread because people have sex shamelessly. one of the posters posted a hadeeth as follows:

“It never happens that permissiveness overwhelms a people to the extent that they display their acts of sex shamelessly and they are not uniquely punished by God. Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers.”

my answer is:
diseases of all kinds appear all the time. some of them are incurable until a time when the medical science reaches a point where it can be curable. I believe it is a matter of time before there is discovery of a cure for AIDS. cancer was incurable at one point but it is not fatal any more. many other simple diseases were incurable in the past. but some have been wiped out of the face of the Earth. they dont exist anymore.
we hope that AIDS might be wiped out of surface of the Earth. lets say that happens. what then? what will be the answer of the theologians to that. will you look for a new disease that will be incurable and call it the disease that was supposed to be meant from this ayah?
there are several reasons why AIDS has been pointed out by theologian for this reference.there are many other diseases that are incurable, but AIDS has that fear factor involved because it has that fatality attached to it.
AIDS has been chosen by the theologians because (1) one of the methods of its spreading is sex (2) it is incurable at this time (3) it has death attached to it, and thus the dread that comes along with it.
they wont chose a disease like Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS or the Lou Gehrig Disease) because even though it kills quicker than AIDS, it is not spread by sex. they wont go for genital warts because even though it is spread by sex( the latest famous victim being Sohaib Akhtar), it wont kill a person.
one person could get AIDS simply by having sex ONCE with an infected person. another could have sex out of marital bounds hundreds of times before he ever catches the diseases. he might never get it if he is a little careful in choosing his partners.
why would God punish the one time disgression of the first person, and not punish the second person for hundreds of times. and why would God create sex for procreation(creating life), and then do the exact opposite ( take life away) when someone involves in it.
and what about that person who is faithful but his partner is not? and he or she gets the disease through the partner, even though they might be married and having “legal” sex in the eyes of God.
I guess God did not have that much time to think about the innocents who came under the guillotine.
can you reply to all this? please be logical. dont give me ahadiths and stuff. give me the answers to the question that i have raised.

I have started a new thread because i think the real discussion on that thread was being derailed. so could some religious people please say something about the so many wrong things with their theory. and why wont they stop believing in such BS.

[d-tox.ed]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
diseases of all kinds appear all the time. some of them are incurable until a time when the medical science reaches a point where it can be curable. I believe it is a matter of time before there is discovery of a cure for AIDS.

I also pray that it becomes curable for innocent souls. But lets not jump to conclusions very quickly. Humans at the moment cant even cope with simple virus of Swine Flu (which to be honest is a FLU) and comparing that to AIDS is just impossible. Lets wait and see what the future holds. Even if there is a cure possible for AIDS then you never know another sex related life threatning disease may come. At that stage Quran prophecy will still remain intact. As Quran is not bound to mention the name of the disease however it has mentioned the conditions which at this time and age are comparative to AIDS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
*cancer was incurable at one point but it is not fatal any more. many other simple diseases were incurable in the past. but some have been wiped out of the face of the Earth. they dont exist anymore. *

Cancer is not related to sexual transmitted disease (some partcular cancer may which I am unaware of). Cancer is however stil life threatning at least some kind of cancers i.e Breast!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
we hope that AIDS might be wiped out of surface of the Earth. lets say that happens. what then? what will be the answer of the theologians to that. will you look for a new disease that will be incurable and call it the disease that was supposed to be meant from this ayah?

I have answered this in first paragraph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
*there are several reasons why AIDS has been pointed out by theologian for this reference.there are many other diseases that are incurable, but AIDS has that fear factor involved because it has that fatality attached to it. *
*AIDS has been chosen by the theologians because (1) one of the methods of its spreading is sex (2) it is incurable at this time (3) it has death attached to it, and thus the dread that comes along with it. *

exactly my point and fulfilment of the Prophecy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
*they wont chose a disease like Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS or the Lou Gehrig Disease) because even though it kills quicker than AIDS, it is not spread by sex. they wont go for genital warts because even though it is spread by sex( the latest famous victim being Sohaib Akhtar), it wont kill a person. *

When did Shoaib Akhter had this…Is this the reason he i sout of the world cup 2020?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
*one person could get AIDS simply by having sex ONCE with an infected person. another could have sex out of marital bounds hundreds of times before he ever catches the diseases. he might never get it if he is a little careful in choosing his partners. *

Again I will have to repeat my point made in very first post. AIDS is a diesease which spreads through shamful acts…i.e ZANA…Its not about choosing partner carefully..its about chosing the right partner…the partner who has not commited the shameful act. It is also not necessary that having many partners and unsafe sex would surely lead you to AIDS. It’s perhaps also the will of Allah whomsoever get punished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
*why would God punish the one time disgression of the first person, and not punish the second person for hundreds of times. and why would God create sex for procreation(creating life), and then do the exact opposite ( take life away) when someone involves in it. *
*and what about that person who is faithful but his partner is not? and he or she gets the disease through the partner, even though they might be married and having “legal” sex in the eyes of God. *

The questions you are raising are not something which requires much thinking. Everything is nature bound. You may also ask what would be the implications if one person drink the whole sea water. What implication would we have if we dont see sun. When a bomb drops on Heroshema why does milion inocent die. Again I would say the word I used before…“collateral Damage”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaanaan http://www.paklinks.com/gs/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
*I guess God did not have that much time to think about the innocents who came under the guillotine. *
can you reply to all this? please be logical. dont give me ahadiths and stuff. give me the answers to the question that i have raised.

I dont know what else I can add logically to statements above so lets hear what you have to say.

[d-tox.ed]

Lets understand how sexual transmission disease such as AIDS spreads:

Article from Wikipedia

Sexual transmission

Sexual transmission occurs with the contact between sexual secretions of one person with the rectal, genital or oral mucous membranes of another. Unprotected receptive sexual acts are riskier than unprotected insertive sexual acts, and the risk for transmitting HIV through unprotected anal intercourse is greater than the risk from vaginal intercourse or oral sex.

Anal sex is prohibited and there are severe punishment for such acts. They are forbidden hence there you go one example of shameful act.

Secondly sexual intercourse with many partners also lead to this disease.

HIV spreads readily through heterosexual sex in Africa, but less so elsewhere. One possibility being researched is that schistosomiasis, which affects up to 50 per cent of women in parts of Africa, damages the lining of the vagina.

[d-tox.ed]

Re: God, AIDS and sex

Can I also add that these are my personal views and do not necessary have to similar to all Muslims. You have full right to agree or disagree with me. However these views cannot be imposed on whole islam or Muslim ummah as they may differ.

[jaanaan]

[quote]
As Quran is not bound to mention the name of the disease however it has mentioned the conditions which at this time and age are comparative to AIDS.

[/quote]

it is not bound to mention it simply because people can continue to believe it. it does not even mention its symptoms. so when AIDS is finally curable, does that mean the book will be proven wrong? or will you say " oh bad luck, that was not the disease that God has talked about after all". second, the kind of sex that you have mentioned has been prevalent throughout history. Anal sex was prevalent in Lot's time too. why did not God think of creating the disease then? why did he have to wait till this era to do so?

[quote]
Cancer is not related to sexual transmitted disease (some partcular cancer may which I am unaware of). Cancer is however stil life threatning at least some kind of cancers i.e Breast!
[/quote]

i did not say it was sexually transmitted. i said about it being incurable. a disease, any disease, could be curable or incurable. i was talking that if cancer was incurable in the past but is not anymore, maybe someday AIDS will be curable too.

[quote]
there are several reasons why AIDS has been pointed out by theologian for this reference.there are many other diseases that are incurable, but AIDS has that fear factor involved because it has that fatality attached to it.
AIDS has been chosen by the theologians because (1) one of the methods of its spreading is sex (2) it is incurable at this time (3) it has death attached to it, and thus the dread that comes along with it.

exactly my point and fulfilment of the Prophecy.

[/quote]

it is not the fulfillment of the prophesy. it is because all these factors gives AIDS a dramatised look that no other disease has. so mullahs and priests had to jump on it.

[quote]
When did Shoaib Akhter had this...Is this the reason he i sout of the world cup 2020?
[/quote]

yep, you have missed the news dear. it looks like God does not punish big players with AIDS. who will replace them after all?

[quote]
Again I will have to repeat my point made in very first post. *AIDS is a diesease which spreads through shamful acts...i.e ZANA....Its not about choosing partner carefully..its about chosing the right partner...the partner who has not commited the shameful act. *
[/quote]

how would you know that a person has not committed the "shameful act"? is having AIDS enough proof. healthy people have had sex in their lives. how are you going to determine that they are the right partners?
[quote]
It is also not necessary that having many partners and unsafe sex would surely lead you to AIDS. It's perhaps also the will of Allah whomsoever get punished.
[/quote]

why is god so arbitrary in choosing his victims.

[quote]
The questions you are raising are not something which requires much thinking. Everything is nature bound. You may also ask what would be the implications if one person drink the whole sea water. What implication would we have if we dont see sun. When a bomb drops on Heroshema why does milion inocent die. Again I would say the word I used before..."collateral Damage".
[/quote]

i would not expect that from a God who calls himself the AADIL. that would be so against the laws of justice anywhere.

[d-tox.ed]

Re: God, AIDS and sex

I GUESS WE SHOULD SPEAK ON THE DAY YOU FIND THE CURE FOR AIDS.

[jaanaan]

Re: God, AIDS and sex

I am not going to find the cure. because i am not the researcher who is doing the research. it might not be available in our lifetimes either.

[d-tox.ed]

Re: God, AIDS and sex

Jaanaan the thing is we are talking hypothetically. We are assuming what may happen.

Lets compare the both situation. The one you say and and one I say.

You say what would happen to prophecy if AIDS find a cure?

There can be few possibilities:

1- AIDS is curable.

2- AIDS is curable and there is another disease which originates related to sexual transmitted diseases and life threatning.

3-AIDS evolves and become more problometic.

If AID is curable then you cannot say what is written in QURAN is a lie as it does not mention when this disease will occur what will be the name etc. However you can say d-tox..ed lied.

You are most welcome to take the meaning of the ayat I am taking as a prophecy or you can equally reject it. If you think it is incorrect then you still have all the rigths to think like that.

Perhaps views from other people should be sought.

[sNOVA]

which ayah are we talking about?

[jaanaan]

which ayah are we talking about?

it is the hadith that i have quoted in the OP

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

ever since the advent of AIDS that religious community has believed that it is spread because people have sex shamelessly. one of the posters posted a hadeeth as follows:

my answer is: diseases of all kinds appear all the time. some of them are incurable until a time when the medical science reaches a point where it can be curable. I believe it is a matter of time before there is discovery of a cure for AIDS. cancer was incurable at one point but it is not fatal any more. many other simple diseases were incurable in the past. but some have been wiped out of the face of the Earth. they dont exist anymore.

Where did the hadith say that the disease would be incurable?

It simply states that new, hitherto unknown diseases would arise with sexual proliferation.

The long list of STDs in existence is testimony to this. When syphillis first arose, it was "the like of which has never been seen by their forefathers", incurable, and spread by sexual activity. Same with herpes. chlamydia, etc.

Medical technology ultimately brought us cures for these, at which point the hadith continued to hold true through the advent of HIV/AIDS. Hopefully on day HIV/AIDS will be cured, but at some point after that another new STD will emerge.

At any rate, even modern understanding of science illustrates how true this hadith will always be. The fluid/fluid interaction involved in sex is an excellent mechanism for microorganisms to transfer from one person to another.

The more multi-partner sexual acitvity in a society, the more opportunities for microorganisms to spread through that society. All it takes is the right set of mutations from an existing condition and a new one is formed.

[jaanaan]

Re: God, AIDS and sex

there are many other diseases that are not spread with sex. and yet they are so bad. why this fixation with the ones that are spread through sex, thoguh that might not be the only way they spread. sex is a natural act, like eating and drinking. ok, maybe it has gotten different status than eating and drinking but on a biological point of view it will be treated the same.
why are we so obsessed with it? is it because of the frustration that has been created by its non-availability in the muslim cultures?

[d-tox.ed]

Re: God, AIDS and sex

perhaps you are confused with husband wife relationship and non husband wife relationship...perhaps you are confused with hetrosexual act and homosexual acts

[jaanaan]

perhaps you are confused with husband wife relationship and non husband wife relationship...perhaps you are confused with hetrosexual act and homosexual acts

I Am not at all confused about any of those things. perhaps i have not been able to make you understand what i am trying to say. i will try to explain it again.
you think that AIDS is a curse because of the people performing shameful acts ( read sexual acts). I assume you are saying that because people perform Zina, therefore AIDS is sent to punish those people.
my point is that people who are into legitimate sexual relationships could get AIDS too. and that does not necessarily have to be through sex. you think that is collateral damage. i think if God is all powerful and all knowing, then he should be punishing only those who have done the said act.
also there are many people who keep on doing zina and never get AIDS. other might get it from having sex one time only with an infected person.
my point is that AIDS is just one of the diseases that is incurable and one of the methods of its transmission happens to be sex. that is purely conicidental. it does not have to do anything with God punishing people for committing adultery. had that been the case he would have punished every single evil doer. but he does not. which just makes him an unjust Lord. he is not doing justice in this case, because he might let go a criminal and punish another innocent.

[psyah]

I Am not at all confused about any of those things. perhaps i have not been able to make you understand what i am trying to say. i will try to explain it again. you think that AIDS is a curse because of the people performing shameful acts ( read sexual acts). I assume you are saying that because people perform Zina, therefore AIDS is sent to punish those people. my point is that people who are into legitimate sexual relationships could get AIDS too. and that does not necessarily have to be through sex. you think that is collateral damage. i think if God is all powerful and all knowing, then he should be punishing only those who have done the said act. also there are many people who keep on doing zina and never get AIDS. other might get it from having sex one time only with an infected person. my point is that AIDS is just one of the diseases that is incurable and one of the methods of its transmission happens to be sex. that is purely conicidental. it does not have to do anything with God punishing people for committing adultery. had that been the case he would have punished every single evil doer. but he does not. which just makes him an unjust Lord. he is not doing justice in this case, because he might let go a criminal and punish another innocent.

Peace janaan

Sexual promiscuity is itself the curse, the STDs are merely the effects in many cases, rather the spread of disease in this manner is a sign of the truth of Islamic prophecy and those who get the STDs are better off than those who do not. Because verily their punishment will be reduced whereas those who continue in their sexual promiscuity will never get a warning in this life and will get their full repayment in the Hereafter.

If there was no consequence of sexual promiscuity social or biological then we as a human race would be far more promiscuous.

[jaanaan]

Peace janaan

Sexual promiscuity is itself the curse, the STDs are merely the effects in many cases, rather the spread of disease in this manner is a sign of the truth of Islamic prophecy and those** who get the STDs are better off than those who do not**. Because verily their punishment will be reduced whereas those who continue in their sexual promiscuity will never get a warning in this life and will get their full repayment in the Hereafter.

If there was no consequence of sexual promiscuity social or biological then we as a human race would be far more promiscuous.

what logic!!! and may i say that it has been picked up right from the christian Dogma, which says that the pain in this life will be cause of pleasure for us in the next after life.
which leads me to another question: why is God so selective in "rewarding" all the promiscuous people with the disease in this life so they can get some reprieve in the after life?

[psyah]

what logic!!! and may i say that it has been picked up right from the christian Dogma, which says that the pain in this life will be cause of pleasure for us in the next after life. which leads me to another question: why is God so selective in "rewarding" all the promiscuous people with the disease in this life so they can get some reprieve in the after life?

Peace jaanaan

May Allah (SWT) be glorified. If this dogma is from Christianity then at least this aspect of the primordial religion of truth has been preserved in them.

As for your question ...

I don't speak for God

It is not that simple really because every person is an individual subject to their own specific trials, but the selectivity may have something to do with the overall outlook and life of a person and not just based on one habit which happens to be their promiscuity ... If however a person sees proof of God i.e. a miracle and still rebels against God then they could be subject to a bad end in this life and in the Hereafter. As I said the question you asked me is best directed to Allah (SWT) and for your best chances to avoid those things that bring harm to you, it is best to submit to Him i.e. be a Muslim.

[sNOVA]

I agree with jaanaan. How could a just God spread a disease like AIDs? He does seem unjust ( May God forgive me ) passing a glance at the whole picture.matlab..jurm adam ne kia aur saza beiton ko, adlo insaaf ka miyaar bhi kya rakha hai. But here's my take on this. My assumption is that God works in mysterious ways.

God has given us aqal, intellect, a complex brain to think and most importantly Free will. God created the universe, then us and sent hundreds of prophets to remind us of our duty. We never were direct with God and we took the prophets at their words. He does not even communicate with us and the last time he revealed Himself he knocked out the whole town. He's is very indirect with his relationship with humans and the only DIRECT instances have been related to destruction and decimation and of course the spreading of diseases. take the flood of hazrat Nuh (as), turning of 'disobedient' people into apes and pigs etc. God's wrath has been very direct.

Islam is very specific about certain things such as Idol worship, promiscuity and homosexuality and in fact the 'azaab' of God was often historically directed to such people. the prophecy being discussed here is therefore NOT unprecedented and unique. God has a low tolerance level for flagrant abuses and such azaabs are outright punishment for the targets but also act as a deterrent for the future. God chastises, and He does it hard.

Statistically, sexual contact is the leading transmitter of AIDs. In fact, when first identified it was known as Gay-Related Immunodeficiency Disease (GRID). It was found to be prevalent is gay communities. Apart from sexual contact, pretty much everything that involves blood became a transmitter. Still in USA, homosexuality remains the leading cause of AIDS. Heterosexual transmission is present but the question is who are the likely victims? The prophecy that 'shameless acts of sex' will be punished is proven true there and then. Even movies depict victims of AIDs having performed unsafe sex. Who are the likely victims? Suppose a person does not engage in casual sexual realtionships and , above all, is not gay. Can we say his chances of acquiring AIDS are drastically reduced, if not eliminated? Furthermore suppose he is educated and does not take intravenous drugs. Are his chances further reduced? Suppose the government introduces several awareness programs so that the only transmitter left is sex? Suppose humans exercise their free will intelligently enough.

But what about those innocent victims of blood transfusion, pregnancy etc. Take pregnancy. The child in the infected mother's womb. a starting point would be how the mother acquied HIV in the first place. The mother bears direct responsibilty for this, not God. Free will comes into play. God is indirect again. My point is that the apparent injustice by God is in fact the direct result of our free will. God is just.

There will be diseases for those who engage in immoral acts (homosexuality) and promiscuity. Statiscally that is simply true and the transmission of AIDs, for example, through other means does not in any way nullify the prophecy. Note the words being used in the hadith. "*Among them, invariably, pestilence is made to spread and such other diseases, the like of which have never been witnessed by their forefathers " *The disease is made to spread! empirical data shows that homosexuality and casual sexual relationship do spread AIDS. The prophecy per se is no doubt true and arguments about innocent victims are totally irrelavent here.

[d-tox.ed]

Re: God, AIDS and sex

some good points in above post SNOVA.