God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Mughal1 · March 19, 2013, 4:16am

Re: God, a proven fact or a mere fiction?

Mughal1,

Self evident and self explanatory are not the same thing. Self evident is without proof. Whereas, self explanatory requires prior knowledge of the issue at hand, therefor it does not require an explanation. Something self explanatory to you may not be for me.

As for the universe, I can emperically find evidence for it and the evidence can be duplicated by others. The universe is not simply self evident. It is a fact that can be proven. The same goes for the sun as well! Scientists and astronomers all agree on the nature of the sun. Its fuel is nuclear fusion. We know it’s size. We know it’s mass. This is because the data can be replicated and used to come to a similar conclusion. This is not based on self evidence, but on emperical evidence.

Ancedotal evidence, and emperical evidence is that the latter can be examined. If I told you I witnessed an accident, you can take my word on faith. That is belief without evidence. However, if you wanted to check, you could get police records, insurance company records, photos of the cars involved, or traffic records. These, tertiarry accounts, corroborate my story. If not, you know I lied. Choosing to check, or not, is up to your volition.

So, what I am telling you, is that I am skeptical. Where is the corroborating evidence? If you are saying something is fact, then where is the evidence? The issue here is, if you believe in a supreme deity, and believe in a universal truth, then why is it misunderstood? Why are there Hindus, and Christians, and Muslims, and Jews? Why don’t we have different interepretation of the pythogream theorem?

All I’m saying is that you are free to believe as you choose. But belief should not be misconstrued with rationality and evidence. The problem isn’t, in my opinion, that there are believers. The problem is that there are not enough believers like you. People that are satisfied in their faith. People that don’t feel threatened in their faith. People equate questioning of their faith as an attack on it. I know it’s not politically correct to say so, but the wars we are engaged in, everywhere, are religious wars.

Dear kprasad bhai, this is not my conclusion at all. I suggest you study things a bit more and particularly objectively. Once you do that only then you are likely change your mind. So long as you take an unstable position and try to fight all around you, you cannot win. It is because you are trying to fight ignorance with ignorance, confusion with confusion. It all leads to chaos and anarchy.

You need to start questioning your own basis or stance or position and see if anyone else can join you in that. It is because unless you yourself are sure where you want to go from where you are, you cannot take others with you. Why taking others with you is important? Because you did not come to existence yourself and because you depended on others to bring you about and maintain you and you yourself are bound to have dependants to maintain. This interdependence makes it absolutely necessary that we have some house rules whereby we all live.

Today world you are complaining about is not run according to any scripture instead it is run by secular and religious forces together in various forms and it is based on principle of survival of the fittest ie on negative competition or if you like rivalry. If you think about it, this is how the natural world exists ie according to laws of nature.

The scriptures tell us not to live like that rather learn and improve things by understanding how laws of nature work and then use them to take control over nature.

It shows you have not read my original posts and have no idea of the context in which I am speaking. Your responses now seem to me out of any proper context or are aimless.

If I am putting an idea across for practical purposes, the response is not only to be your idea is rubbish but also here is another idea that is better. This is why you will see a lot of discussion on any forum are fruitless and create more tensions than solving the existing problems.

This is the reason for my suggestion that if you have time please study things objectively. It is not right way of looking at things in way that all is useless and purposeless. That way you are not doing any service to yourself or anyone else.

It is not possible to find out actual truth because for that we need to be able to see not only inside in this universe but out side it as well. We can therefore only look at truth the way it serves some worthwhile purpose for us.

This is why response to wrongs in theism is not atheism but a serious critical examination of theism that is purposeful and leads to better theism. response to bad religion and secularism is an alternative better view point which in the quranic context is called islam that is neither religion nor secularism but ADDEEN.

However, in that case your question has to be what is ADDEEN islam. My response to that will be please try and read the quranic text in its own context. Not only that I would also suggest that you read other scriptures in their texts in context as well. You will see all scriptures telling us same thing though other scripture than then quran have some problems here and there in them but if we then look at them through light of the quran we can overcome those problems.

So what appears to be an insurmountable task through help of each other we can do it. By rubbishing each and everything we leave ourselves no choice.

Here is something you may not know Nearly 40 percent of Europeans suffer mental illness | Reuters

You need to try and understand why so many people end up with mental problems. If you were under constant pressure 24*7 from all directions you are bound to break down when going get tough for you. It is because no matter how strong we think we are ultimately we each have threshold beyond which we break down.

This pressure is due to rivalry based system wherein instead of helping each other we are driving each other crazy. That is exactly what you are complaining about when you are baling others for your problems. That is exactly what others are doing ie looking for solutions from others instead of trying to offer them oneself.

Here is a little story. A king ordered his people, I want you to dig a pool. They did it and then he told them that at night when it is really dark fill it with milk. They all came and filled it but in the morning it when the king saw it, it was filled with water. Why? Because each person brought water instead of milk thinking no body will notice my share of water when others would have filled it with milk. But that was in mind of everyone, so all brought water instead of milk.

So let us not pass the buck let us do what needs to be done and see the result.

Please do watch the videos that I posted when you have the time. You will find them very informative. I do not agree with them entirely but they have some very beneficial points that help us look at things from different angles.

Mankind have been building their world on the knowledge of past generations gradually. That is a historical fact. All because odd people from among us have been pushing the boundaries a bit in the right direction. So let us be one of those who have played a constructive part in this world rather than destroying all that has been built so far.

Your criticism of religious groups is valid to a point and I agree with you but don’t stop there is my point go all the way and try and offer an alternative so that world turns in the direction that you can offer the best. This you cannot do unless you study scriptures properly. Your research and exploration about scriptures will count because you will have an educated view not that of a ten year old kid who hardly has been out of his village.

It is not scriptures you are criticising but their understadning by priests and their following. It is because these priests hardly know anything about real world realities there fore they take things written in scriptures they way they make sense to them. People like you can offer alternatives view point from the very same scriptures.

This is why when educated people criticise scriptures I can understand where they are coming from but they fail to realise their own very serious mistake ie relying on less educated people for their conclusions.

So my expectations are higher for educated people than they themselves have about themselves. Future of humanity always rested on shoulders of people who had wider and deeper vision, who could coordinate fuse together all narrow visions and that is why world has been coming together more and more and looking forward to yet better future. We can play our parts in there.

So it is better to offer answers to the problems than waste time in blame game or look for truth in such a way that destroys everything. It is because absolute truth is beyond our direct reach but we can make do with a purposeful truth and for that we have plenty of room to explore and solve problems that face us.

From my this post you can see that criticism could be levelled against anything to break it down completely or render it senseless. That is something that we should never do because it will have consequences for humanity itself that we cannot even imagine. Whatever else we still have some sort of order in this chaotic human world. So our drive has to to be, offer it better and better goals and guidelines, rules and regulations, responsibilities and rights, terms and conditions etc etc so that our world goes in a better direction than towards total destruction.

I am currently trying to make better sense of the quranic text and trying to expose its actual context so that muslims could see what wrong they are doing and why it is wrong and so that world could see for itself how ignorant it is about what the quran actually says. The response of nonmuslim world to allegedly quranic and islamic teaching does not worry me at all because they have been told things by ignorant muslims and that is because I know better. I want to see similar efforts by all other people who claim to follow other scriptures yet never study them in their original languages in light of real world realities so that we have a level playing field.

Scientists and philosophers talk a lot of rubbish about scriptures when they have no real basis to start from. Is it not shameful that a person claims to be a learned person and a worldly wise person yet takes no responsibility for scrutinising scriptures according to his ability? He accepts interpretation of a scripture by a person who is not worldly wise at all and then through mass media spreads stupidity against scriptures thinking he is doing a service to humanity? This is what I call shooting oneself in the foot.

I do not accept anyone has any valid criticism against any scripture unless one is worldly wise and has studied scripture one is criticising thoroughly. It is because only and only then one can defend one’s criticism of a scripture truly. Reading an english translation of an arabic quran is ok for little bit of idea but not ok to be used for criticising the quran on that basis.

Not only that but one must have idea of how language developed and has been used by mankind. We are all familiar with multiple meanings of words and variant uses of words so why we should not look for alternative meanings that fit the context. Moreover where does the context come from? It has to rise out of the very same text that is being understood? What should be the basis for driving that context? The same ie the real world realities. Why? Because that is what each and every scripture is all about. How do we know? It is because the scripture tells us things to do and things not to do to live properly in this world. These commandments have universal implications in themselves. This is why we cannot isolate scriptures from the real world realities. A lot of things stated in the scriptures are verifiable facts therefore it is possible that whatever else is told in them that we cannot directly verify is also true provided there is no evidence against that. We can only and only reject such statements in the scriptures which we can really prove false that is all. So long as we cannot prove any statement really false we cannot claim it is false even if there is no direct self evident evidence of its truth.

The vested interest world is very powerful and does everything in its power to fool us masses. They even fund research and explorations to take people away from scriptures because scriptures are thorn on side of each every user and abuser of mankind. They want to use and abuse people without having guilty conscious.

If you look at life in india, pakistan, bengladesh, afghanistan, burma and I can go on and on and the flourishing partnership between rulers, priests, money lenders and arms industry you will be surprised who is really behind all tyhis hatred and bloodshed.

May be you should find out about rothchild family and secret organisation

Rothschild Documentary part 1 - YouTube
The 13 Families - YouTube

illuminati and zionism busted - YouTube

Apocalypse Conspiracy 2013 - Illuminati World War III - YouTube

Female Infanticide - India
Female Infanticide - India - YouTube

Infanticide in pakistan
!!PRACTICE OF KILLING OF NEWBORN BABIES (GIRLS) ON THE RISE IN PAKISTAN!! - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKOH7U9FLBg)

The story goes on country after country. powerful countries are waging wars on poor countires and mafia crime in the world is on the rise.

All this is proof of mismanagement of people and resources. Most disorder in the world is created by those who talk too much and never think to reflect on what is really going on and come up with solutions of the problems.

I will be posting my understanding of the the surahs of the quran to show you what the quran has to say about things. Please do read when you have the time. We can discuss the quranic text and context if you like.

This is not going to be dr zakir naik style understanding of the quran but a very different one that although muslims are familiar with it but never took it on that widely. Not because there is anything wrong with it but that people in the world are not tat educated and those who are, are not bothered to study things the way the should because they think they know better.

I do not want to make this post to long so I will leave it here for the moment for you to ponder over isues that you raised and my response to that. More is to come in form of quranic interpreation of surahs to show you what the quran says in my view and may be I am right because it proves consistency in the quranic text. Not only that but ideas the quran puts froth actually cannot be improved upon only their understanding could be improved upon by humans and that is because we are born to learn and improve as I explained in my opening posts on this thread.

I wish you and the rest better understanding of things so that we all could have better life than we do.

regards and all the best.