Gifts from Invaders

Dronacharya · September 11, 2012, 6:58pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

When life gives you lemons, make lemonade ! :D
Same thing happened in India.

queer · September 11, 2012, 7:03pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

biryani wasn't brought by invaders, it is something that came out of developments within india. one can even say most invaders from central asia were pastoral nomads whose cooking skills were limited to cooking things on sticks over fire.

tea didn't come via invasion. tea is a cultural phenomenon in china for millenia, and buddhist monks brought this into india on return.

muqawwee123 · September 11, 2012, 7:08pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

explain please :)

Dronacharya · September 11, 2012, 7:10pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

[QUOTE]
biryani wasn't brought by invaders, it is something that came out of developments within india.
[/QUOTE]

Yes. Many posters here are assuming the RSS rhetoric that the Indic Muslims were, in fact, invaders. :D
Even Islam didn't come through invaders, it was brought to India by Arabic merchants visiting Kerala.

Dronacharya · September 11, 2012, 7:14pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

Invaders brought many hardships to Bharat, but our ancestors made the best of them, and we wouldn't be here if not for them.

For example, there would have been no Sikhi if there were no invasions. The Khalsa Panth was born in the crucible of violence and mayhem.

muqawwee123 · September 11, 2012, 7:17pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

true, but wasn't Sikhi came a reaction to hindu caste system then due to Mughal rivalry?

Dronacharya · September 11, 2012, 7:25pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

^
Not really. The Panth started as a protest/reform movement against the evils of Indic society. However, it got organized and militarized later because of the Afghan invasions as well as Mughal oppression. Incidentally, most of the early Sikhs belonged to so called higher castes.

queer · September 11, 2012, 7:36pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

uhh no

guru nanak founded sikhism as a reformation against caste and ritualism (both hindu and muslim) at the time. idea was equality of all humans . in fact ahmedis claim even today that baba nanak was a muslim.

Dronacharya · September 11, 2012, 9:11pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

^
Sure. If your conception of Sikhi is of a static faith, which was "revealed" to Guru Nanak, and has remained unchanged over the centuries. But, IMHO it is a living Panth which continued evolving even after the martyrdom of Guru Gobind Singh, and influenced as well as was influenced by events. However, I do concede that the values preached by first Guru constitute its core.

calypsodc · September 11, 2012, 9:27pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

Infrastructure:

As you already mentioned, GT road already existed by the name Uttarapatha. There were also other roads like Draravati-Kamboja road which connected the Kamboja kingdom in present Afghanistan and Tajikisthan to Dwaraka and other major ports in Gujarath, permitting goods from Afghanistan and China to be exported by sea to southern India, Sri Lanka , Middle East Greece and Rome. The Cholas had excellent ports and maritime industry. They also built canals.
So roads and other infrastructures were built by various empires over the centuries. So that is not something new or a concept introduced by invaders. Sher Shah Suri was a great king but he was also home born not a part of an invading horde. He modernized the ancient road and for that and his various administrative contributions , he must be acknowledged. As for the railways, it would have made its journey into India one way or the other, sooner or later even if the British were not there.

Educational Institutions:

What about Nalanda and Takshasila ? The subcontinent was home to one of the worlds most ancient universities. The Gurukula system of education also flourished in the ancient days. In fact Invaders plundered and destroyed our centers of learning. Take Mahmud of Ghazni for example who is lauded as a hero by many people here. This is what Al-Biruni had to say about his destruction of centers of learning…
In the interest of his successors he constructed, in order to weaken the Indian frontier, those roads on which afterwards his son Mahmud marched into India during a period of thirty years and more. God be merciful to both father and son! Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims.* This is the reason, too, why Hindu sciences have retired far away from those parts of the country conquered by us, and have fled to places which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benares, and other places.** And there the antagonism between them and all foreigners receives more and more nourishment both from political and religious sources*
Mahmud of Ghazni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The real tragedy of the moghul rule in India IMO is that they ruled over a large area but there was no or very limited patronage to scientific studies. While they spent resources building forts and tombs and even patronized literary scholars in Persian and Urdu, the native scholars and scientific thought and studies was not something they cared for. This is what I have concluded. Please correct me if I am wrong with examples . The result of which, India which was a pioneer in Mathematics , metallurgy etc fell behind and has never managed to regain that scientific glory old yet…

Governance and Bureaucracy :

Let us not forget that while the subcontinent gave birth to excellent kings and emperors, it was also a place where republics or rule of the people flourished. Megasthenes and Arrian describe many of the states having republican governments. There are other texts that refer to a number of states having Gana Sangha, or council-based, as opposed to monarchical governments. It is believed that Ashoka’s attack of Kalinga was based on the assumption that as a republic with council members instead of a king, it would be easy picking. He was proved wrong.
At the grassroots level, the Panchayat system which is used in India today is actually one of the oldest forms of local governments in the subcontinent.

The invaders did not contribute much for the development of the subcontinent. They were barbaric hordes more concerned with their loot. The real tragedy is that too much civilization led to the gradual demise of a glorious civilization. Any ideas or innovations found today were probably introduced through trade and migrants and not by invaders.

Ali_Syed · September 11, 2012, 11:40pm

Re: Gifts from Invaders

Yes they were from gandhara civilization.

muqawwee123 · September 12, 2012, 7:31am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

They were that much obvious during Ghaznavids periods? If they were so obvious as in the days of Taliban, why Mehmood Ghaznavi didn’t destroy them. Was he more inclined to spread his heroism in India?

muqawwee123 · September 12, 2012, 7:40am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

calypsodc:

Infrastructure:

As you already mentioned, GT road already existed by the name Uttarapatha. There were also other roads like Draravati-Kamboja road which connected the Kamboja kingdom in present Afghanistan and Tajikisthan to Dwaraka and other major ports in Gujarath, permitting goods from Afghanistan and China to be exported by sea to southern India, Sri Lanka , Middle East Greece and Rome. The Cholas had excellent ports and maritime industry. They also built canals.
So roads and other infrastructures were built by various empires over the centuries. So that is not something new or a concept introduced by invaders. Sher Shah Suri was a great king but he was also home born not a part of an invading horde. He modernized the ancient road and for that and his various administrative contributions , he must be acknowledged. As for the railways, it would have made its journey into India one way or the other, sooner or later even if the British were not there.

Educational Institutions:

What about Nalanda and Takshasila ? The subcontinent was home to one of the worlds most ancient universities. The Gurukula system of education also flourished in the ancient days. In fact Invaders plundered and destroyed our centers of learning. Take Mahmud of Ghazni for example who is lauded as a hero by many people here. This is what Al-Biruni had to say about his destruction of centers of learning…
In the interest of his successors he constructed, in order to weaken the Indian frontier, those roads on which afterwards his son Mahmud marched into India during a period of thirty years and more. God be merciful to both father and son! Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims.* This is the reason, too, why Hindu sciences have retired far away from those parts of the country conquered by us, and have fled to places which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benares, and other places.** And there the antagonism between them and all foreigners receives more and more nourishment both from political and religious sources*
Mahmud of Ghazni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The real tragedy of the moghul rule in India IMO is that they ruled over a large area but there was no or very limited patronage to scientific studies. While they spent resources building forts and tombs and even patronized literary scholars in Persian and Urdu, the native scholars and scientific thought and studies was not something they cared for. This is what I have concluded. Please correct me if I am wrong with examples . The result of which, India which was a pioneer in Mathematics , metallurgy etc fell behind and has never managed to regain that scientific glory old yet…

Governance and Bureaucracy :

Let us not forget that while the subcontinent gave birth to excellent kings and emperors, it was also a place where republics or rule of the people flourished. Megasthenes and Arrian describe many of the states having republican governments. There are other texts that refer to a number of states having Gana Sangha, or council-based, as opposed to monarchical governments. It is believed that Ashoka’s attack of Kalinga was based on the assumption that as a republic with council members instead of a king, it would be easy picking. He was proved wrong.
At the grassroots level, the Panchayat system which is used in India today is actually one of the oldest forms of local governments in the subcontinent.

The invaders did not contribute much for the development of the subcontinent. They were barbaric hordes more concerned with their loot. The real tragedy is that too much civilization led to the gradual demise of a glorious civilization. Any ideas or innovations found today were probably introduced through trade and migrants and not by invaders.

Detailed overview :k:

Ali_Syed · September 12, 2012, 9:43am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

Nahin Bhai invasions tou pichlay 2000 saal say pehlay ki ho rahi hain, if you say so I can post a few of them here. Before they used to be non muslims (Greeks, Sakas, Huns and Mongols), but from 1100 AD the invaders were muslim, the religion only changed the invaders remained the same. :)

muqawwee123 · September 12, 2012, 9:45am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

Yes Ali. I'm pointing the same.

My question is : Why Ghaznavi's religion allowed him to spare idols at Bamiyan and made him destroy idols at Somnath? :D

Ali_Syed · September 12, 2012, 9:45am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

Mahmood Ghaznavi was more interested in looting, thats why. Maybe there was nothing in Bamiyan for him, the budhas sustained hundreds of years until taleban came along.

Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Buddhas of Bamiyan (Pashto: د بامیان بوتان - “de bámiyán botán” Persian: بت های باميان‎ – but hay-e bamiyan) were two 6th century[SUP][1]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan#cite_note-Gall_1-0)[/SUP] monumental statues of standing buddhas carved into the side of a cliff in the Bamyan valley in the Hazarajat region of central Afghanistan, situated 230 km (140 mi) northwest of Kabul at an altitude of 2,500 meters (8,202 ft). Built in 507 CE, the larger in 554 CE,[SUP][1]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan#cite_note-Gall_1-0)[/SUP] the statues represented the classic blended style of Gandhara art.[SUP][2]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan#cite_note-1)

[/SUP]
The main bodies were hewn directly from the sandstone cliffs, but details were modeled in mud mixed with straw, coated with stucco. This coating, practically all of which was worn away long ago, was painted to enhance the expressions of the faces, hands and folds of the robes; the larger one was painted carmine red and the smaller one was painted multiple colors.[SUP][3]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan#cite_note-gall1-2)

[/SUP]
The lower parts of the statues’ arms were constructed from the same mud-straw mix while supported on wooden armatures. It is believed that the upper parts of their faces were made from great wooden masks or casts. The rows of holes that can be seen in photographs were spaces that held wooden pegs which served to stabilize the outer stucco.

They were dynamited and destroyed in March 2001 by the Taliban, on orders from leader Mullah Mohammed Omar,[SUP][4]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan#cite_note-3)[/SUP] after the Taliban government declared that they were idols.[SUP][5]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan#cite_note-4)[/SUP]International opinion strongly condemned the destruction of the Buddhas, which was viewed as an example of the intolerance of the Taliban. Japan and Switzerland, among others, have pledged support for the rebuilding of the statues.[SUP][6]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan#cite_note-5)[/SUP]

muqawwee123 · September 12, 2012, 9:49am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

wedding in karachi!!

Mahmood Ghaznavi was more interested in looting, thats why. Maybe there was nothing in Bamiyan for him, the budhas sustained hundreds of years until taleban came along.

Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Buddhas of Bamiyan (Pashto: د بامیان بوتان - “de bámiyán botán” Persian: بت های باميان‎ – but hay-e bamiyan) were two 6th century[SUP][1]](Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia)[/SUP] monumental statues of standing buddhas carved into the side of a cliff in the Bamyan valley in the Hazarajat region of central Afghanistan, situated 230 km (140 mi) northwest of Kabul at an altitude of 2,500 meters (8,202 ft). Built in 507 CE, the larger in 554 CE,[SUP][1]](Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia)[/SUP] the statues represented the classic blended style of Gandhara art.[SUP][2]](Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia)

[/SUP]
The main bodies were hewn directly from the sandstone cliffs, but details were modeled in mud mixed with straw, coated with stucco. This coating, practically all of which was worn away long ago, was painted to enhance the expressions of the faces, hands and folds of the robes; the larger one was painted carmine red and the smaller one was painted multiple colors.[SUP][3]](Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia)

[/SUP]
The lower parts of the statues’ arms were constructed from the same mud-straw mix while supported on wooden armatures. It is believed that the upper parts of their faces were made from great wooden masks or casts. The rows of holes that can be seen in photographs were spaces that held wooden pegs which served to stabilize the outer stucco.

They were dynamited and destroyed in March 2001 by the Taliban, on orders from leader Mullah Mohammed Omar,[SUP][4]](Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia)[/SUP] after the Taliban government declared that they were idols.[SUP][5]](Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia)[/SUP]International opinion strongly condemned the destruction of the Buddhas, which was viewed as an example of the intolerance of the Taliban. Japan and Switzerland, among others, have pledged support for the rebuilding of the statues.[SUP][6]](Buddhas of Bamiyan - Wikipedia)[/SUP]

Again, after knowing all this many will not agree that Ghaznavi was just a looter and had nothing to do with Islam as promoted. Even our national poet Iqbal glamorised him in his poetry.

Ali_Syed · September 12, 2012, 9:52am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

As far as I can see, and visualize now he seems to be a looter. Most of them before him were also the same, we shouldnt single the poor guy out I guess.

muqawwee123 · September 12, 2012, 9:55am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

True Ali. I'm not single out him. Its just came to my mind because we were discussing Gandhara :D

Ali_Syed · September 12, 2012, 10:05am

Re: Gifts from Invaders

calypsodc:

Infrastructure:

As you already mentioned, GT road already existed by the name Uttarapatha. There were also other roads like Draravati-Kamboja road which connected the Kamboja kingdom in present Afghanistan and Tajikisthan to Dwaraka and other major ports in Gujarath, permitting goods from Afghanistan and China to be exported by sea to southern India, Sri Lanka , Middle East Greece and Rome. The Cholas had excellent ports and maritime industry. They also built canals.
So roads and other infrastructures were built by various empires over the centuries. So that is not something new or a concept introduced by invaders. Sher Shah Suri was a great king but he was also home born not a part of an invading horde. He modernized the ancient road and for that and his various administrative contributions , he must be acknowledged. As for the railways, it would have made its journey into India one way or the other, sooner or later even if the British were not there.

Educational Institutions:

What about Nalanda and Takshasila ? The subcontinent was home to one of the worlds most ancient universities. The Gurukula system of education also flourished in the ancient days. In fact Invaders plundered and destroyed our centers of learning. Take Mahmud of Ghazni for example who is lauded as a hero by many people here. This is what Al-Biruni had to say about his destruction of centers of learning…
In the interest of his successors he constructed, in order to weaken the Indian frontier, those roads on which afterwards his son Mahmud marched into India during a period of thirty years and more. God be merciful to both father and son! Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country, and performed there wonderful exploits, by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions, and like a tale of old in the mouth of the people. Their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims.* This is the reason, too, why Hindu sciences have retired far away from those parts of the country conquered by us, and have fled to places which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benares, and other places.** And there the antagonism between them and all foreigners receives more and more nourishment both from political and religious sources*
Mahmud of Ghazni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The real tragedy of the moghul rule in India IMO is that they ruled over a large area but there was no or very limited patronage to scientific studies. While they spent resources building forts and tombs and even patronized literary scholars in Persian and Urdu, the native scholars and scientific thought and studies was not something they cared for. This is what I have concluded. Please correct me if I am wrong with examples . The result of which, India which was a pioneer in Mathematics , metallurgy etc fell behind and has never managed to regain that scientific glory old yet…

Governance and Bureaucracy :

Let us not forget that while the subcontinent gave birth to excellent kings and emperors, it was also a place where republics or rule of the people flourished. Megasthenes and Arrian describe many of the states having republican governments. There are other texts that refer to a number of states having Gana Sangha, or council-based, as opposed to monarchical governments. It is believed that Ashoka’s attack of Kalinga was based on the assumption that as a republic with council members instead of a king, it would be easy picking. He was proved wrong.
At the grassroots level, the Panchayat system which is used in India today is actually one of the oldest forms of local governments in the subcontinent.

The invaders did not contribute much for the development of the subcontinent. They were barbaric hordes more concerned with their loot. The real tragedy is that too much civilization led to the gradual demise of a glorious civilization. Any ideas or innovations found today were probably introduced through trade and migrants and not by invaders.

As Far as Taxila university is concerned (northern Pakistan including taxila, swat and peshawer) were part of the gandhara civilization which was a central Asian rule (Kushans), can we include that into a local civilization now? Most of the civilizations that I see in northern Pakistan and India have been central Asian based, therefore the relationship between us and central Asians is quite old. What’s the history of nalanda, and the roads that you have mentioned in your post?