I was hoping that in the last two years, the level of corruption would have gone down a lot in Pakistan. The primary reason I thought so was because I have not heard any financial scandals of Musharraf himself, and believing that one needs to have top-down approach to rid these vices.
However, lately I have had many discussions with people visiting from Pakistan during the summer, and I asked each of them their impression of whether the general corruption levels have gone down in day to day activities. Unfortunately I seem to be getting constant comments that the situation is still getting from bad to worse. Initially the Army tried to put a stop to blantant corruption, but that had only jacked up the “prices” and now with less vigilance the practice is again wide-spread, with the same higher rates!!! So its just getting worse.
Reminds me of a famous statement with a former Prime Minister, Meraj Khaled, who I think is a very honest and upright gentleman. When he was the interim PM, he said “as a nation, we are 100% corrupt”. If we are 100% corrupt, then really there is no hope out of it.
Really Faisal bhai? That's disappointing. Most of the people I've spoken to though, including my parents, plus my friends who are now working in Pakistan, and some people who went to Pakistan from America recently, tell me that the situation is indeed getting better. The crime rate in Karachi has gone down for one thing, which is the significant barometer for Karachiites. Then, the streets are cleaner. The private sector has expanded and people who work in the private sector have to work hard to earn the money they get. Some of my friends who are working in Pakistan this summer tell me how much work they have to do. Plus, female education is on the rise in rural areas.
Change won't come about so soon. It'll take ages. People's attitudes and mentalities have to change, and that will take generations no doubt. However, things are getting better.
Well, economy is really booming. Real estate prices are through the roof. Most businessmen are really happy with their businesses these days. KSE is on a record-breaking streak. I am sure education etc is also on the rise. So, yes, all that is doing well.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Well, economy is really booming. Real estate prices are through the roof. Most businessmen are really happy with their businesses these days. KSE is on a record-breaking streak. I am sure education etc is also on the rise. So, yes, all that is doing well.
My point was about corruption.
[/QUOTE]
Corruption is at an all time high. There was a time when the Islamabad police (the best in the country) would take bribes very carefully, not letting anyone else see them doing that. Now they dont really care, they do it openly, and have even set specific rates, for instance a truck driver taking a short cut in a city road to be charged rs. 500 etc. Goto any court/kecheri, its much much more easier to get your work done by paying a hefty amount of money rather than even thinking of going to get your stuff done legally.
All this talk about economy going up and all, thats just in the news. Whether its actually true or not, who really cares when mehengai is at an all time high, and no Im not blaming the present government solely for this. The good thing is, qualified graduates from good colleges in Pakistan are finding good jobs, especially in the technology related fields, even though the pays are much less than one would have imagined.
Lets just pray for law and order and security in our country, that will restore the confidence of investors, businessmen etc and hopefully we are all set on the road to progress.
The concept of Pakisan having the best economy is a farse because it solely depends upon USA policies with Pak with its war on so called "terrorism". Once the regime changes in US or when policies change then believe me, the sanctions are back on Pakistan. It should not be very difficult to see this.
and corruption in Pakistan --- Its very much alive and kicking
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zman: * Once the regime changes in US or when policies change then believe me, the sanctions are back on Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
The USA had only ever placed military sanctions, not economic sanctions, on Pakistan I believe. There were no punitive economic measures taken against Pakistan by the USA prior to the Musharraf era.
Im in pakistan right now and i can assure you that ever since Gen Musharraf came to power the conditions in general have been improving, a little slow in pace, but still moving in the right direction. generally the ppl are happy, except a few whose interests are other than Pakistan's improvement; they are the ppl who have been whining about democracy and all. every sane person admits that the situations are much much better than they were under the democratic leaderships. democracy is for educated nations, more that half our voters are uneducated. military rule has proven better for Pakistan everytime. anyone who says that the conditions are deteriorating under the army rule must take a look at the condition Pakistan was in during Nawaz Sharif and Benazirs stints. they looted on our wealth. they stole national treasures, antiques and sent them to their homes outside Pakistan. Nawaz sharif owned a helicopter...! they were corrupt by all means. if one muct compare the army rule with civil rule, it won't be hard to deduct that there's a huge difference when it comes to the welfare of the ppl and the nation.
i agree that the prices are not as down as they could be, the law and order is not as good as it could be, the corruption levels are not as low as claimed, the common man is not as happy as he should be, but take a look at the law and order situation from before 1999, the price index from before 99, the general corruption level from before 99! everything today IS better than before! changes dont take place overnight. atleast the army is trying to put the nation on the right path.
as far as corruption is concerned, i agree, we as a nation are corrupt, very corrupt! every man! maybe even I! and until every pakistani doesnt start taking responsibilty for his and his family's actions we wont get anywhere with eliminating corruption from our society, ever! there is corruption everywhere, in every govt. office, and perhaps in every military institution too. but there is corruption in every household too! those who live inside Pakistan evade taxes, those who are abroad dont send back their money through proper channels, dont pay property taxes-thats corruption. students who dont want to study all year pay bribes to clerks and staff at universities to increase their marks, employees of institutions accept bribes and work only when paid money-that's corruption. a taxi driver plays with his meter, a person hiring a taxi would often not be willing to pay the driver even what he duly deserves for the distance travelled. not paying back loans to banks, not paying zakat, stealing electricity and telephone connections...is all corruptiuon and everyone, every pakistani is involved! it's really very sad, very distressing. i think until we dont change our mentalities and mindframes and dont agree to take responsibilty and dont hold ourselves by our collars and start playing by principles and rules, we will never get out of this curse called corruption. i'll start with myself, ppl will make it hard, but i hope i succeed!
Indeed Quaid-e-Azama M.A. Jinnah was a great man! think about it, the depth and importance of his three principles, the nations motto:
Unity-Faith-Discipline
only if we had followed his advice, we would have been in a much better state today. but better late than never!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
The cause and the reason for corruption in a word: Jinnah
[/QUOTE]
madhanee bhai, I disagree on that. I would say the cause and reason for corruption in more than a word -> Politicians that followed Jinnah
Jinnah never led by nepotism or corruption. Unlike other leaders of that era, he never even went to jail once, nor was accused of anything of that sort. He never resorted to blackmail (how he opposed the idea of using the nehru-edwana letters) and stuck to justice and fairplay.
Btw, the cap is not the only thing we named after him, there are airports, parks etc. My own grandfather made a business out of making/selling Jinnah Caps though :)
^^NYA, whats the cause of India's corruption according to you :)
Anyway things are still pretty bad, in Pakistan, don't forget. The top most corrupt organisations in Pakistan , federally are, The Police, WAPDA and Taxation. Those areas were barely touched by NAB. And most of the people arrested have since switched sides and been declared whiter then white by the government :)
Instead of completely finishing up the Armed Forces,
If Nehru hadn't been so obsessed with Kashmir I figure Pakistans Army would never have been in the equation.
himself by lousy politicians whose families still control almost all of what is left of Pakistan
All of Jinnahs favourite politicians were marginalised after his death. Suhwardy, Zafarullah, Iftikhar and many others, those families drift towards anyone in power.
Faisal, Musharraf never said that he has swept the corruption from the lower level. He has always said that he has started the cleanup from the upper level and it will ultimately go down to the root level.
People at the lower level are still taking 100s as bribe but at upper level they are not taking millions and billions as kick back and commission as it used to be in Asif Ali Zardari and Saif Ur Rehman’s case.
Zakk…you agree with 15 out of my 18 lines. That’s like 80% convincing rate. I can live with that.
Not really the whole premise behind your argument is flawed.
Anyway back to Faisal’s original comments, this is an old bit of information but is a useful read:
*Benami ownership or owning through proxy is Pakistan’s biggest problem today and unless this bull is seized by horns. no drive for resource mobilization or economic reform can succeed, since a big chunk of the real estate and Pakistan’s bubble economy is today owned by front men. *
A United Nation report released here on Sunday said
corruption was costing south Asia billions of dollars a year. The UN
Development Programme report said corruption was costing Pakistan five per
cent of its Gross National Product (GNP).
It added: “The magnitude of corruption in Pakistan alone exceeds Rs 100
billion a year or five per cent of the total GNP.”*
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Minime Bhaijan, when things go bad, one should always blame the leaders. It is the easiest thing to do, and it usually works. Jinnah left us a lemon. But more importantly, he left us seeds of that rotten lemon that keep re-generating. What other country in this world has named a Cap after it's leader? Think about it.
[/QUOTE]
so you think Pakistan was a mistake? you have a right to have your own opinion but not a right to try and convince others that you're right. in the long run, maybe making the English leave India was alos a mistake then since all desis would do anything to immitate western culture, traditions. talk in English, abandon their language, eat their food, be willing to sell their souls for just one chance to get their citizenship or passport. wasn't everyone better with them on our heads then!? when they were here we kicked them out, now that they are gone we miss them dearly! is that it?
the new generation is totally confused!
as far as later political internal situations areconcerned, no country is free of them. not india, not Pakistan, not U.S, not G.B.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Well, Ayub Khan defeated Jinnah's sister (yeah, tons of places are named after her too). So are you telling me that people of Pakistan were that stupid back then to reject the leftover lemons of Jinnah? He surrounded himself by lousy politicians whose families still control almost all of what is left of Pakistan. Instead of completely finishing up the Armed Forces, he started a bad precedent, for which we are paying till today. Yeah, we have a bomb now. It was precisely because of that, that we have had dictatorships everytime my grandpa took a leak. Does nepotism, or egoism mean anything? Yeah, Fatima Jinnah. She could have been a messenger of peace between India and Pakistan. Now what we have is the leftover trash compounded by each governing generation of politicians (coming from the same families). It's embarrassing to call it the house that Jinnah built. It really is. On top of that mound of filth, we have an imported version of Islam to make it more pretty.
[/quote]
Now youre really confused and have no clue what yorue talking about? On one side youre attacking Jinnah and on the other side youre bashing Islam? NYA, read basic history, and you will find that the first roots of dictatorship in Pakistan were meant to oust Liaqat Ali Khan (read about the rawalpindi conspiracy), and let me explain, Liaqat was amongst Jinnah's devouts, sine youre claiming something else. As soon as Nazimuddin and Ghulam Mohammad couldnt coexist, the last of the Jinnah-devout politicians were gone, end of story for them. I wish they could have stayed longer, we would have prospered. Remember, in the 50s, Pakistan was quoted internationally as a success. As for Fatima Jinnah, why do you refer to her? We are talking about Mohammad Ali Jinnah here, no need to fall astray. I also understand why you wanted Jinnah to finish the Armed Forces just to make India's job easier, whereas in reality we didnt even have any armed forces at that time.
[quote]
Zakk. I guess the cause of Indian corruption is that it's next door to Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
No offense, but pro-Indians like you are making it seem like India is now a developed country, free of corruption, poverty etc. Just go there my friend, the very sight of that plague ridden excuse for a country will change your opinion. I assure you, stop by Sirojni Market Delhi, a hundred beggers will literally take your pajamas off. Even the idiotic monkeys roaming around are trained to snatch anything valuable that you carry. Why dont you talk about those things in India? All you guys mention is India's IT infrastructure. The corruption in India, folded with the population there makes our corrupt ones look like innocent ahmedis :)
Oh yes, coming back to the topic, another good sign is the fact that for the first time, Pakistani graduates in US/Europe and other countries are finding jobs in their own countries now. Now it has something to do with the shattered economies of those countries, but its still a good sign for Pakistan. Also, the education ministry, and the ministry of sciences and technology had also long term plans, where they gave scholarships to IT students who would have to serve 3 years in Pakistan in any company they wish. These policies have begun sprouting, and are showing their results!
I had a chat with Director Finance, Dewan Salman sometime back. Talking about KSE performance, he mentioned that if the assemblies are dissolved the stock exchange will fall drastically, but will then recover. I asked How? He said the simple reason is that the business community knows as long as Musharraf is here, the economy has a chance. Once he goes, economy goes down the gutter. He said the guy is not corrupt. He’s picked up a professional team (especially shaukat Aziz) The other jokers (politicians) are here to create drama, and make money.
Now this guy has to deal with the upper levels of government, and when he says Musharraf and his team is not corrupt, its probably true. The people on the lower level still arecorrupt, though. And I dont blame them. Income is still meagre in the lower level government jobs (even though there was a raise in this budget), and bribe is the only way if you want to live a reasonable life here.
But I am hopeful the change will come. I hope Musharraf can stay as long as he can. and if you watched his Profile on BBC last week, you’d know he ain’t going anywhere. Not now, not after five years. Go Musharraf.
I’d also like to mention the new computerized tax offices being set up by the government. Think of them as the Nadra registration offices. Much better than before with lesser chances of corruption. A few of them have already started working.
Someone mentioned in this thread that Wapda, police, and Tax are the most corrupt organisations in Pakistan. With work under way on tax area, and police reforms, and Wapda privatization around the corner, You can expect a little more relief for the acerage citizen.
Inflation is at an all time high. Thats very interesting. Because when i did a review of Pakistan’s economy as my semester project, I found that the CPI has come down from around 11% in the early ninties to 3-4 % now. I would recommend that you read Dawn’s business pages from time to time. They publish CPI,SPI, and WPI movement regularly. You’d get a clearer picture of inflation from there.
Coming to your point about economy. Perhaps the answer to your question is out there. Just do a little research, and you’ll know its true. And while I do agree that the numbers presented by the Pakistani governments should be taken with a pinch of salt, given the past practises But you have to give the govt. credit for trying. I dont know if you remember this but when Pres. Musharraf visited USA, his Finance minister was heard saying that one of the things he’s marked to do is to get assistance from the US to develop the Federal Bureau of Statistics, and make its numbers more credible. I dont have a link to the story, but it was on PTV.
Now, if you dont find the government’s numbers credible, you should look at the reports by World Bank, and ABN Amro economy Watch. They are independent resources.
And for the first time in the history of Pakistan, we have a proper Debt Reduction Department in Ministry of Finance working under Dr.Ashfaq Hasan Khan. And just take a look at the profiles of Musharaff’s team:
Relative to previous governments (excluding Ayub), we have a gem of a leader. He needs all the support that we can give him. If it were upto me i’d clone him, and have him as our President for the next 10-20 years.
Faisal, I dont know if its in your knowledge but the government has decided to make public the spendings on PSDP. All the documents relating to public sector programmes are now accessible by the general public. this was done in this previous budget. Plus the government has decided to place a cap on the maximum dollars that can be spent on any given project. If the project requires more than the allowed money, it’ll have to be brought into the parliment and get its approval first. So now you can’t have PM’s spending billions on unknown projects. Tell me, why would Musharraf do this if he wanted to embezzel money?
