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Kalimah Radde-Kufr

Oh Allah! I seek protection in You from that I should join any partner with You knowingly. I seek Your forgiveness from that which I do not know. I repent from ignorance. I free myself from disbelief and from joining partners with You and I (free myself from) all sins. I submit to Your will. I believe and I declare: There is none worthy of worship besides Allah and Muhammad (Sallallahu alayhi wasallam) is the messenger of Allah.

Abrogation

Islaam abrogates all the previous religions, Christianity and Judaism included. And hence if the Jews and Christians do not accept Islam, they are the losers. Whatever good deeds they have will be scattered like dust on the Day of Judgement. We will only quote the Islamic position is on this issue. In The Reliance Of The Traveller we read:

Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested by many verses of the Noble Qura’an (Koran), but were abrogated by the universal message of Islaam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Noble Qura’an (Koran). Both points are worthy of attention for English-speaking Muslims, who are occasionally exposed to erroneous theories advanced by some teachers and Koran translators affirming these religions’ validity but denying not mentioning their abrogation, or that is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions, such as “Christianity” or “Judaism”, are acceptable to Allah Most High after He sent the final Messenger (Allah bless him give him peace) to the entire world. This is a matter over which there is no disagreement among Islamic scholars…

Please note that there is no disagreement among the Islamic scholars concerning the abrogation of previous religions like Judaism and Christian and that believing in their validity is a form of kufr.

Salvation in Islaam

Islaamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith. In the dozens of times Allah (SWT) talks in the Quran about salvation, He always states, “Those who believe and do good deeds.” Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works. When one converts to Islam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed (SAW) is his last messenger. Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of IMAAN, or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person’s Imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.

One of the more popular Hadith of the Prophet (SAW) states, “All actions are based upon intentions,” implying that the purpose, intent, or Imaan behind your action is what you get rewarded for; the actual action is really a consequence of the belief.
Another Hadith states, “A man came to the Prophet (SAW) and asked, ‘When will the Day of Judgment come?’ The Prophet (SAW) replied, ‘What have you prepared for the judgment day that you are so concerned for it?’ He replied, ‘I do not have any good deeds in my account, but I do have one thing: I love Allah and His Messenger (SAW).’ The Prophet (SAW) then said, ‘In that case, do not worry; you will be with those whom you love.’” (Agreed Upon). This Hadith also confirms the Islamic position of placing aqeedah and belief before actions. For example, Allah (SWT) says in various parts of the Quran, “The believers you will find praying…” He does not say the people who are praying are believers. It is the belief that brings about the action, but the converse is not always true. Another Hadith of the Prophet (SAW) states, “Unless one loves Allah and Allah’s Messenger more than one’s own self his Imaan is not complete.”

Amazing Facts about Islaam
Questions for Non-Muslims

The pursuit of knowledge is a divine
commandment for every Muslim

Did God declare/make your religion (Christianity/Judaism) perfect. Does the names of “Christianity” and “Judaism” have divine inspiration. Can you show me a single verse to that effect from your bible (OT & NT)? NO, there is none.

BUT GOD DECLARED ISLAAM THE PERFECT RELIGION:
Noble Qur’aan 5:3! … This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâam as your religion…

Did God promise to guard your bible from corruption, can you show me a single verse to this effect? NO, there is none.
BUT GOD PROMISED AND HAS BEEN PROTECTING NOBLE QURAN:
Noble Quran 15:9! Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)].

Did God say the religion of God is Christianity/Judaism, can you show me a single verse to this effect? NO, there is none.
BUT GOD DECLARED THE RELIGION OF GOD (ALLAH) IS ISLAAM:
Noble Quran 3:19! Truly, the religion with Allâh is Islâam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, then surely, Allâh is Swift in calling to account.
Noble Quran 5:3! … This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islâam as your religion…

Does the name(s) “Christian/Jew” have divine inspiration? NO, there is none.
BUT NAME “MUSLIM” HAS DIVINE INSPIRATION:
Noble Quran 3:64! Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh]. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are “Muslims.”

That is why Islaam is a perfect religion and Christianity/Judaism are not NOT.

That is why Noble Quraan is a perfect book guarded and protected by God Almighty Himself since its revelation. Contrary to that bible (OT&NT) are corrupted and adulterated.

And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. Noble Qura’an 3:85

One learned man is harder on the devil
than a thousand ignorant worshippers!

NOTE: A reference about Noble Quran 2:62 was made by a poster. That particular verse talks about Jews and Christians of the era of Moses and Jesus (PBUT), and those who were righteous. Not all at large.

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There is no disagreement among the Islamic scholars concerning the abrogation of previous religions like Judaism and Christian and that believing in their validity is a form of kufr.

Muhammad Ibn al-Alâ' told us that Ibn Numayr reported from Mujâlid from Ibn Aamir from Jâbir that Umar Ibn al-Khattâb brought a copy of the Torah to the Prophet (P) and said: "O Apostle of God, this is a copy of the Torah." But [the Prophet] kept silent. Then Umar started reading and the face of the Prophet kept changing. So, Abu Bakr interrupted him violently: "Don't you see the face of the Prophet (P)?" Umar looked at the Prophet's face and said "May God preserve me from His anger and from the anger of his Apostle (P), we accepted God as Lord and Islâm as religion and Muhammad as prophet." Then the Prophet (P) said: "By the One Who owns Mohammed’s soul, if Moses (P) appeared to you and you followed him and left me, you would go astray from the right path and if he were alive and reached [the time of] my prophethood he would have followed me. "

This states clearly that the religion as well as the scripture give to Moses (P) is abrogated after the advent of Qur'ân. The clearly shows Muslim's position vis-a-vis of the previous scriptures, i.e., the Torah, Zabur or Injîl, and that the Muslims do not have to follow it. It would be worthwhile to add that this refutes some of the Christian missionary claims that the Qur'ân points to the "superiority" of the Bible. If that was the case then why would Prophet Moses (P) need to abandon the revelation given to him by God for the Qur'ân? It is clear that Islam is the final religion and whoever does not accept Islam would be a loser on the last Day.

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What the hell you talking about? Islam has 73 sects.

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Ik ne kahi, Duje ne maani,
Nanak Kahen, Dono Gyani.

O.K. we accept your (quran's) statements as true. But where is the need to compare the religions. Why is Islam so bent upon proving itself to be the supreme. And as you have said in the initial post, how do you know Allah's religion is Islam (except for your quote from Quran). After all it is not Allah who has come to earth to tell this to people. It is Mohd. who is telling that Allah told him so. Why can't Allah come to each and everyone in his thoughts and tell him about his religion, what is stopping him.

This is just a thought and nothing directed against Islam as a religion or Allah as god.

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FAQ about Islam

Who is Allah?

Allah means God. It is a personal name, which Allah calls Himself in the Koran. That is where we get it. It can also be found in an Aramaic copy of the Bible, and even Christian Arabs say Allah.

Who is Jesus to us?

Jesus peace be upon Him is a true prophet. Sent by Allah like Moses, Abraham, Lot, Noah, Jonah, Joseph …etc.

Who were Jesus's parents?

Jesus is the son of Virgin Mary, and he had no father. Allah created Jesus.

Can Jesus, or Mohammed peace be upon them be worshipped?

No, Allah does not accept that a cow, a person, an angel, a prophet, a stone, or anything be worshipped in place of him, or even along with Him. Worship must be to Allah the creator of them.

Is Allah the same as what Christians call the father?

Allah is the creator who Jesus worshipped. He is the Creator who spoke to Moses, and split the sea for Moses, and his followers. That is Allah. But Allah tells us: "Say Allah is one, He is Perfect, He has never begotten, nor was He begott, and there is no one equal to Him".

Is there a trinity in Islam?

No. Allah is perfect.

Do we believe that Allah created the heavens and earth in 6 days?

Yes, but He did not rest on the seventh day, because He did not get tired. Allah is perfect He does not get tired, nor does He sleep, eat, go to the bathroom, feel pain, or die for that matter.

Can we see Allah?

Allah is not like the sun. Anyone can see the Sun. But Allah is the most beautiful. Nothing is as beautiful as Allah. Actually looking at Allah is the greatest pleasure of the people in Pradise. This pleasure Allah does not give anyone but the believers. So no one will see Allah before he dies.

Does Allah see us?

Allah sees us, and knows everything about us. He knows us better than we know ourselves. There is not a leaf on a tree that blows away, or stays in its place except that He knows it. There is not a dry spot, nor a wet spot, nor a grain in the depths of the earth except that Allah knows it.

Do we have free will?

Yes ofcourse. Allah does not punish us for something we did not do on our own. But at the same time, our will is not inspite of Allah's will. We cannot do anything if Allah will not allow it. In other words nothing goes on in Allah's kingdom without His will.

Did Allah create Evil?

Yes Allah created the good, and the bad. Whatever bad happens to us is due to our sins. We sin and Allah pardons much of what we do; however, when something bad happens to us it is our fault, and we are to blame. Bad things that happen to a person are a chance for that person to reflect, and ask: ”Why is this happening to me?” A chance for a person to return from his sin, and obey, and worship Allah.

Do bad things happen to the believers (good people)?

Yes they do. But they appear bad to the believers cause they are things people don't like. Who likes breaking a leg? However, when a bad thing happens to a believer this believer is patient. He praises Allah in all circumstances. He knows Allah does not decree something unless it is for his own good.

But how can breaking a leg are good for a beleiver?

Because it is a chance for the believer to think about what he did wrong.
Also because Allah forgives much of what we do, but those things we are not forgiven, they are forgiven due to our patience when we are struck by a calamity. Allah gives us better reward when a problem strikes us on earth if we are patient. This reward can be on earth, and it can be in Heaven.

Does Allah hear my prayers?

Yes

Does Allah answer my prayers?

We know that Allah answers all the prayers of the believers. This can be in 4 ways:
1- Get what we are asking for!
2- Get something as good or better!
3- We get spared something bad that would have happened otherwise.
4- We get rewarded on the day of Judgment with a much greater reward than what we were asking for on earth.

When does Allah not answer our prayers?

  • When it is bad for us!
  • When we ask, but not from our heart!
  • When we say: I asked and asked and He did not answer.
  • When we eat, drink, and wear unlawful, food, and clothes, and property that wa earned either through interest from the bank, or that was stolen, or if the food was pork, or the like.

What can I ask of Allah?

Any thing but dont' ask Him to do things like make you a prophet. Cause He has already said that there will be no more prophets.
You can ask Allah for guidance. Meaning you can ask Him to show you the correct religion.

Who are my best friends?

Your best friends are the ones that care where you go after you are dead. This is like the prophets. They cared that we go to heaven, even if it meant some hardship on earth.

Who is my worst enemy?

That would be the devils, whether they are human devils (evil people), or Jinn devils (like Iblis) The Arabic word for a devil is Shaytan (similar to satan). Satan wants us all to go to hell. He wants us to be bad on earth, even if we get rich, or do lots of wrong things that we appear to enjoy, he does not mind that. But he wants to make sure we don't go to heaven.

What is it that keeps us from entering Heaven?

Worship of anyone other than Allah is the greatest sin. It is called shirk, and this is not forgiven except through repentance.

Where is Allah?

Allah is the highest. He is high above ALL of His creation. He is ascended upon a Throne, which is greater than the heavens, and the Earth. Much much much greater than the heavens and the earth. So much greater that the heavens and the earth could fit in the footstool of the throne, and they would be like a ring thrown into an open desert. Allah is certainly the greatest.

Does Allah look like us?

No Allah is perfect. He is not like any of His creation. He has told us that He has Hands, Eyes, a Face, and Foot. But all of these attributes are befitting to His might and Glory.
A Muslim does not say a single thing about Allah other than what Allah says about Himself. We don't say He is like a clover, He got tired, He is Jealous!
Allah is Perfect, and Unique.

What does it mean to believe in Allah?

It means to believe in Allah in total perfection, and uniqueness.
It means to believe in His prophets cause they are His, and He sent them. We cannot pick and choose. A Muslim must believe in all the prophets of Allah.
It means to believe in the Angles! We must love them all, we cannot hate an Angel say, for example, to hate Michaeel who is charged with rain, and the vegetation of the Earth, or Gibrael who is charged with revelation (brings down the scriptures to the prophets).
It means to believe in Allah's predestination of good, and bad (relative to us, but to Allah everything Allah does is good).
It means to believe in the last day: The day of Judgment.

When is the Day of Judgment?

Only Allah knows.

Are there signs for the day of Jugment?

Plenty, plenty, plenty. Many have already occured.
To name a few,
Objects will begin to talk.
There will be much killing. The killer won't know why he killed, and the guy that was killed won't know why he was killed.
The Antichrist will come.
Prophet Jesus son of Mary will return.
Gog and Magog will be set free.
The sun will rise from the west (after this one there can be no more repentance)

What about non-Muslims do they go to heaven?

Allah only accepts Islam. He says in the Koran: "Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam it won't be accepted of him, and he will be one of the loosers in the hereafter". I would rather loose anywhere, but not loose in the hereafter. This is because Hellfire is eternal. It never ends, and we never die when we go there, if we go there.

What about someone who never heard of Islam?

Allah is the most just. Don't even think that we can be nicer than Allah. Allah is the Most Just, and He said in the Koran "We were not to punish till having sent a warner". The "We" here is the majestic we used in Arabic. So if a person never heard about Islam, and was never warned clearly Allah would have a special test for that person that He knows is equal to the chance that person would have had on earth.

How do we know Islam is the truth?

It is the only religion that:
1- Hold Allah as One, Unique, and Perfect.
2- Alonly worship of Allah, not Jesus, not an idol, and not an angel onlyAllah.
3- The Koran does not contain contradictions.
4- The Koran contains scientific facts, which are 1300 years ahead of their time. The Koran while revealed 1400 years ago contains scientific facts, which are only now being discovered. It is not in contradiction to science.
5- Allah challenges the world to produce the like of the Koran. And He says they won't be able to.
6- Prophet Mohamned was the most influential man in History. Even a non-Muslim wrote a book called the 100 most influential men in History, and Prophet Mohamemd was #1. Prophet Jesus was #3. Note even Prophet Jesus was a prophet sent by Allah. Would Allah allow a false prohet to be so successful? No. Even the Bible says this in Deuteronomy 18:19. A false prophet would die!!! Yet Prophet Mohammed did not die till he completely conveyed, and taught Allah's religion.
7- He had many prophecies, and all of his prophecies have come true, or are still coming true.

Most importantly is this:

Allah created us, and we know that we should only worship Him. This is an instinct Allah has created us with. He did not just leave us, rather He sent propehts for us. These propehts had miracles as proof. The miracle for us today is the Koran. There is no other religion that worships only Allah, and believes in Him as totally perfect, and believes in all of His prophets, and scriptures.

Can anyone become a Muslim?

Yes anyone can. There are two declartions, which are necessary:
1- To bear witness that no one deserves to be worship except Allah
2- To bear witness that Prophet Mohamemd is the Messenger of Allah.
This makes a person Muslim. But it should be said in Arabic. Next a person takes a shower, and He/She is a Muslim.

Then What?

After a person becomes Muslim he/she is taught about Prayers, Fasting, the Poor due, Pilgrimage. These are pillars of Islam.

Then What?

Muslims are brothers. A Muslim should love for his brother what he loves for himself. Allah's wealth does not run out, and Allah can provide for us all. We pray for each other, and love each other, and love for our brothers and sisters what we love for ourselves.

Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."

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*dhir: O.K. we accept your (quran's) statements as true. But where is the need to compare the religions. *

Ir: No one is comparing any religion. There is NO need to compare, because there in no other religion since Islaam has abrogated all religions that includes Christianity and Judaism. Please see Noble Quran 3:85

dhir: Why is Islam so bent upon proving itself to be the supreme.

Ir: No one is proving Islaam to be supreme, there is no need for that. BECAUSE ISLAAM IS SUPREME. If you think it is not, prove it otherwise?

  • dhir: And as you have said in the initial post, how do you know Allah's religion is Islam (except for your quote from Quran)*

Ir: Allah’s religion is Islaam, please see Noble Quran 3:19. To answer your rhetoric let me ask you a question. How do you know the person named in your birth certificate is actually your biological father? You believed your mother, who has all to gain nothing to loose? Prophet Muhammed (SAW) who got the Prophethood and revelation from Allah through Archangel Gabriel (Gibraeel) has told Muslims. Well, guess what Muhammed (SAW) has nothing to gain telling Muslims this, except carrying out Allah’s commands. Because Muslims worship Allaah not Prophet Muhammed (SAW).

dhir:After all it is not Allah who has come to earth to tell this to people. It is Mohd. who is telling that Allah told him so.

Ir: Who said Allaah came on earth? You said it. Read about Islaam, you will learn about truth and ArchAngel Gabriel.

dhir:Why can't Allah come to each and everyone in his thoughts and tell him about his religion, what is stopping him.

Ir: You must be stupid thinking you are asking very valid question. Does your parents do everything the way you want them to do? You came in this world resulting (your mom or your dad or else) a good time. So they demand you to obey them. You expect the Creator of this Universe and every living being to come down in your thought to tell what his religion is? It clearly shows your ignorance about theology and religions.

dhir: This is just a thought and nothing directed against Islam as a religion or Allah as god.

Ir: If you will direct anything against Islaam or God, will it make any difference? I don’t think so.

Here are some references from your people:

Mr. Mahatma Gandhi:
"Someone has said that Europeans in South Africa dread the advent Islam -- Islam that civilized Spain, Islam that took the torch light to Morocco and preached to the world the Gospel of brotherhood. The Europeans of South Africa dread the Advent of Islam. They may claim equality with the white races. They may well dread it, if brotherhood is a sin. If it is equality of colored races then their dread is well founded."
And in "Young India", he wrote:
"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind.... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."
Miss. Sarojini Naidu, Poetess, in Ideals of Islam:
"It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for in the mosque, when the minaret is sounded and the worshipers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and the king kneel side by side and proclaim, God alone is great." The great poetess of India continues, "I have been struck over and over again by this indivisible unity of Islam that makes a man instinctively a brother. When you meet an Egyptian, an Algerian and Indian and a Turk in London, it matters not that Egypt is the motherland of one and India is the motherland of another."
Prof. Ramakrishna Rao, in "Muhammad the Prophet of Islam":
"The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes! There is Muhammad, the Prophet. There is Muhammad, the Warrior; Muhammad, the Businessman; Muhammad, the Statesman; Muhammad, the Orator; Muhammad, the Reformer; Muhammad, the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad, the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad, the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad, the Judge; Muhammad, the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero." ... Muhammad is the "Perfect model for human life."

Do you really think that you can over-ride these super heavyweights of India?

Irrefragable
Islaam Is The *ONLY Solution!*****And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. Noble Quran 3:85*

[This message has been edited by Irrefragable (edited March 30, 2000).]

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Refrigerator...
I think you donot have to defend your religion or paste some long posts about its greatness. Everyone here seems to agree that Islam is a great religion. What we fail to understand is that why do you feel that the other religions are any less, since you obviously have not studied them. Why does one religion have to be better than the other. Aren't all religions supposed to be different paths towards one god ?

Bubbly...
You seem to be having some "genuine questions" specially since you're the "intelligent debator" !! So I'll try and answer them as best as I can.

"Why your Sita did not come to get screwed by me?"

I can't answer this question, but maybe you should try changing your cologne next time (also try changing your toothpaste or something). Maybe it'll help !

"Which hand your Shevji was using for masturbation, since he has 8 or else hands."

I think all his hands are occupied so I wouldn't know which one !

"Did Sita sleep with Ganeshji ?"

No. She did not.

"Why Rawan use to fuck monkeys ?"

No as far as my knowledge goes, he did not fuck monkeys, so don't worry -- you're safe (just kidding) :)

"Those Hindus who fuck the cows in countryside of India are truly motherfuckers, don't they? Because they are screwing the gaomata."

I haven't heard of any Hindu fucking a cow. Since our media is not as free as the Pak media, they must have been prevented from reporting such stuff.

"How you like it stupid?"

I am seriously impressed by your debating skills !!

:) :) :)

[This message has been edited by BombayKid (edited March 30, 2000).]

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Faith and Works

One of the basic arguments raised by non-Muslims, especially Christians, against Islam concerns the concept of salvation. They say that in Christianity, one is saved by faith, whereas in Islam one must earn their salvation through good deeds. Unfortunately, many Muslims fall into the trap of defending the position imposed on them by these non-Muslims. This then provides the Christians with a basis for their entire Jesus-Father-Crucifixion-Salvation framework. They then go on to argue that salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned. But if the true Islamic concept is made clear, the Christian has no basis to attack Islam.
Many times, Muslims fail to realize that the Islamic concept of salvation is not based upon good deeds, but is based primarily upon faith. In the dozens of times Allah (SWT) talks in the Quran about salvation, he always states, "Those who believe and do good deeds." Belief is always mentioned before deeds or works. When one converts to Islam, one does not do it by doing some good work but rather through realizing and believing that there is but one God and Muhammed (SAW) is his last messenger. Non-Muslims may perform good works as well, but what sets them apart from Muslims is their lack of IMA’AN, or belief. The reason that the good works of the non-believers are worthless in the hereafter is because of their disbelief. Unless a person's imaan or aqeedah is not correct, all his good deeds are worthless.
One of the more popular Hadiths of the Prophet (SAW) states, "All actions are based upon intentions," implying that the purpose, intent, or iman behind your action is what you get rewarded for; the actual action is really a consequence of the belief.
Another Hadith states, "A man came to the Prophet (SAW) and asked, 'When will the day of judgment come?' The Prophet (SAW) replied, 'What have you prepared for the judgment day that you are so concerned for it?' He replied, 'I do not have any good deeds in my account, but I do have one thing: I love Allah and His Messenger (SAW).' The Prophet (SAW) then said, 'In that case, do not worry; you will be with those whom you love.'" (Agreed Upon). This Hadith also confirms the Islamic position of placing aqeedah and belief before actions. For example, Allah (SWT) says in various parts of the Quran, "The believers you will find praying..." He does not say the people who are praying are believers. It is the belief that brings about the action, but the converse is not always true. Another hadith of the Prophet (SAW) states, "Unless one loves Allah and Allah's Messenger more than one's own self his imaan is not complete."

Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."

9

Mary's Geneology

Christians refer to Jesus as king of the Jews, they are in essence asserting that Jesus was the messiah, and the final heir to the throne of David. This claim, however, is self-defeating.

According to both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born of a virgin. This claim makes it impossible, however, for Christians to insist that Jesus was king of the Jews. This is because tribal lineage is traced only through a person’s father. This is clearly stated in Numbers 1:18. According to Christian teachings, Jesus had only a human Jewish mother, not a human Jewish father. This human Jewish father would be essential for anyone to be a legitimate heir to the throne of David, which the real messiah will be.

Mary’s genealogy is entirely irrelevant to Jesus’ supposed lineage from King David. Mary’s
genealogy is therefore not traced anywhere in the New Testament. In both the first chapter of Matthew and in the third chapter of Luke, these New Testament authors provide a genealogy of Joseph alone, although these genealogies severely contradict each other. As mentioned above, Joseph’s genealogy is irrelevant to Jesus because according to Christian doctrine, Joseph was not Jesus’ father.

I should mention that according to both Catholic and Protestant tradition, whereas Matthew’s genealogy is that of Joseph, Luke’s genealogy is of Mary. Although this tradition is completely alien to the words of the Gospels, it was a necessary doctrine for the church to embrace.

Nowhere in the third Gospel, or in the entire New Testament for that matter, does it state that Mary was from the House of David. On the contrary, Luke 1:27 insists that it is Joseph who was from the House of David, not Mary. In fact, Luke claims that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, who he says was a descendant of Aaron the high priest,1 placing her in the tribe of Levi, not David’s tribe of Judah. Moreover, in Luke 2:4, the author writes that the reason it was necessary for Joseph and Mary to return to Bethlehem was because Joseph was from the House of David.

There are a number of reasons why the church has a vital interest in claiming that Luke’s genealogy is through Mary’s line. To begin with, Paul claims in Romans 1:3 that Jesus was from the seed of David after the flesh. This has always been understood to mean that Paul was claiming that King David was the biological ancestor of Jesus. Although at the time Paul penned the Book of Romans, he was completely unaware that Christendom would eventually claim that Jesus was born of a virgin birth. The church desperately needed to have Paul’s statement correlate with the virgin-birth story. This was solved by insisting that whereas Matthew’s genealogy was through Joseph’s line, Luke’s genealogy was through Mary’s line. In this way, Jesus could now be from the seed of David after the flesh through Luke’s genealogy. Claiming Luke’s genealogy is through Mary’s line, not only solved the problem of what to do with Romans 1:3, but established a physical link between Jesus and King David.

Finally, it resolves an awkward discrepancy between Matthew’s and Luke’s genealogies. Whereas in Matthew’s genealogy, Joseph’s father is Jacob, in Luke’s genealogy it is Heli. By claiming that Luke’s genealogy is of Mary, Heli becomes Mary’s father and Joseph’s father-in-law. Problems solved.

NOTE: The above is FYI from biblical point of view.

Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited March 31, 2000).]

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I have heard many evangelists mention the term "Son of God" from the Bible to try to convince me that Jesus and God (the father are of the same essence and that they constitute the trinitartian God.
I have not been able to accept this rationally because it does not stand to reason nor does it fit in with what we experience about how the world around us works.
First of all is the necessity to have children. When I ask myself why creatures have children I end up with only one answer. Creatures are mortal and if they did not have offspring the race or species would become extinct. There is no question of God being mortal so this cannot be a reason for God to have children.
Tied in with the aspect of mortality is that of decrepity. As creatures age they lose parts of their ability and strength, the young replace the older ones to continue those functions which the old can no longer perform. Again God does not lose any part of His ability as time passes so this also cannot be a reason for Him to have children.
The above are sort of purpose-related explanations of why we or any other creatures have children.
Then there are the natural reasons. It is a law of nature that when male and female sexually unite there is the chance of producing offspring. Other variations of reproduction can be found among other creatures such as asexual methods and hermaphrodism but because the claim is that Jesus was born to Mary (a human female) I'm going to limit my questions to sexual reproduction.
The way that sexual reproduction works is that the father provides half of the genetic material and the mother provides the other half of the genetic material. This is the only possible meaning of the word "father" when used in the sense that we are using it with Jesus. He is not thought to be an adopted son, he is thought to be a biological son.
But this raises a few problems. Either God provides all of Jesus' chromosomes, only half of his chromosomes, or none of his chromosomes.
But wait someone asks, why does Jesus even have to have chromosomes? Unfortunately this is because of a claim that many Christians make, Jesus was also fully man in addition to being God. To assert that one can fully be human and not have chromosomes is something which no one can maintain because of what we know and have found out about how life works. Our experience tells us otherwise and anyone claiming the above would have to provide evidence to support a view which is entirely contradictory to the status quo or common experience.
The first two options are that God has chromosomes. If this were the case then He would cease to be God. God, as we understand Him, is independent of all of His creation, he does not depend on anything for His existence. Having a genetic code implies dependence. The genetic code is a physical molecule subject to physical and chemical laws. The genetic code can be damaged and altered by radiation and reproduction. Our understanding of God is that He is not subject to any kind of change. If we look at our understanding of God then we clearly must reject that God has chromosomes which He can pass along to his offspring.
So then can we say that God created these chromosomes for Jesus? Yes we can say this but then we lose the concept of Jesus being a biological son of God. Jesus then would be no different than Adam or Eve or even Melchizdek who also had no earthly father or mother and were created by God. Jesus would in fact be no different than any other thing that God has created.
The last option is that Mary provided all of Jesus' chromosomes. In this case God is definitely not the biological father as is being asserted above. This option is not consistent with Christian belief.
This is the crux of the problem of accepting Jesus as God's Son in any meaningful way. Rationality shows that there is no possibility of Jesus (or anyone else for that matter) of being God's Son or Daughter.
Perhaps you could offer a rational explanation of this very real problem which few people have addressed or even considered.
Peace.

Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Irrefragable:
Ir: No one is comparing any religion. There is NO need to compare, because there in no other religion since Islaam has abrogated all religions that includes Christianity and Judaism. Please see Noble Quran 3:85

If I happen to write a book on a religion, say XYZ, putting in all good virtues of all the existing religions in the world and then tell everybody that almighty has come to me to convey this to the whole world that he should from now on be called by the name ABC (other than Allah) only and all others are non-believers and hence may not go to heaven and declare myself to be a prophet. How will you challenge that? And if in one of the quotes in my book I also write that hence XYZ abrogates all other existing religions including Islam. What will you say to that, because it will have all the good principles of Islam as well as other religions. This is what seems to have happend in Islam, just because one of the quote in Quran 3:85 says that it abrogates all other religion does not mean so to others.

Ir: No one is proving Islaam to be supreme, there is no need for that. BECAUSE ISLAAM IS SUPREME. If you think it is not, prove it otherwise?

Surprise statement from a fanatic. So you are not trying to prove it to be supreme you are only telling others that they are not complete. May Allah guide you on how to tell people when they are wrong.

Ir: Allah’s religion is Islaam, please see Noble Quran 3:19.

Bhaijaan, didn't I say, prove it except from quotations in Quran.(because I do not believe Quran to be Allah's words, if they are, prove them to be so).

*To answer your rhetoric let me ask you a question. How do you know the person named in your birth certificate is actually your biological father? *

We can have a gene-test. There are ways to prove it which are scientific and logical. Now you answer my question.

You believed your mother, who has all to gain nothing to loose? Prophet Muhammed (SAW) who got the Prophethood and revelation from Allah through Archangel Gabriel (Gibraeel) has told Muslims. Well, guess what Muhammed (SAW) has nothing to gain telling Muslims this, except carrying out Allah’s commands. Because Muslims worship Allaah not Prophet Muhammed (SAW).

But they did obey prophet's scheme of things only the name to be used is going to be different. Prophet was gaining much more than what my mother gained. He gained a large following in the name of Allah. Naam ka laalach, paise se bhi baraa hai. Because after you gain money, the next step is to gain name. See all around for examples.

Take for example, why did he marry so many times, and then to prove himself to be on the right path, he has also allowed it so for his followers also(although fixed the limit to 4 so as to stop the world from going completely out of balance). He very well knew that women of that time did not have enough courage, education, standing, power to protest against this and that this trend may continue if he put it as allah's words. This is called turning rape into a religious right, although in this case you gain the right to rape again and again till you get fed up and then you go on to next. Otherwise which woman in the world would like her husband to share three more wives believing him when he say that he will do justice to all and will take care of all equally, which is next to impossible.

Ir: Who said Allaah came on earth? You said it.

Read my post again, I said Allah didn't come to earth.

** Read about Islaam, you will learn about truth and ArchAngel Gabriel.**

I will learn about truth or about what is said in Quran.

Ir: You must be stupid thinking you are asking very valid question. Does your parents do everything the way you want them to do? You came in this world resulting (your mom or your dad or else) a good time. So they demand you to obey them. You expect the Creator of this Universe and every living being to come down in your thought to tell what his religion is? It clearly shows your ignorance about theology and religions.

No other religion says that their god follow only their religion. In fact in all the religions god is above religion because all of them know that religion is a man-made thing.

So Allah had a good time with someone (which has been kept secret in Quran) and decided to create muslims only but forgot to tell them when it was created and woke up about 1500 years ago and decided to come down to one man and commanded him to tell everyone to convert to Islam according to a set of guidelines as told in Quran or else, isn't it. Thanks for enlightening us. What about people before the advent of Islam. They all must be going to hell (for not marrying four times).

Ir: If you will direct anything against Islaam or God, will it make any difference? I don’t think so.

It sure will make a differece to you. As I know your next post will tell.

And then you gave some references from people in India (most of them shrewd politicians) who said something in praise of Islam. Do you want me to get quotations from them about other religions also? Why didn't they all converted to Islam in that case.

*Do you really think that you can over-ride these super heavyweights of India?
*

Maine marnaa hai kya.

[This message has been edited by dhir (edited March 31, 2000).]

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Hi dhir :)

You said: (1)And then you gave some references from people in India (most of them shrewd politicians) who said something in praise of Islam. (2)Do you want me to get quotations from them about other religions also? (3)Why didn't they all converted to Islam in that case.

**My response:

I have divided your comments in three parts and I'll address below accordingly.

(1) That may be the case but the only politician among three references given is Gandhi. His comments are not considered to be based on politics because he was not seeking any office and at that time the idea of seperation was already there. So Gandhi has nothing to gain. Other two are not politicians. So the ball is back in your court :)

(2) Please do that. I would love to see them. Because what I got in my sleeve you cannot match it by no means :)

(3)I can answer you from two different perspective. One is pure Islamic, which I am not sure that how much knowledge you do possess? The other is that ask those people don't ask me. Because they know the best and I cannot speak for them. For me Islamic reason according to Noble Quran is bottom line.

I look forward to see some other quotes from these people about other religions.

Take care :)

Irrefragable
Islaam Is The *ONLY Solution! *****And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. Noble Quran 3:85*

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Mary’s (P) Geneology…A bible corruption

Christians refer to Jesus as king of the Jews, they are in essence asserting that Jesus was the messiah, and the final heir to the throne of David. This claim, however, is self-defeating.

According to both Matthew and Luke, Jesus was born of a virgin. This claim makes it impossible, however, for Christians to insist that Jesus was king of the Jews. This is because tribal lineage is traced only through a person’s father. This is clearly stated in Numbers 1:18. According to Christian teachings, Jesus had only a human Jewish mother, not a human Jewish father. This human Jewish father would be essential for anyone to be a legitimate heir to the throne of David, which the real messiah will be.

Mary’s genealogy is entirely irrelevant to Jesus’ supposed lineage from King David. Mary’s genealogy is therefore not traced anywhere in the New Testament. In both the first chapter of Matthew and in the third chapter of Luke, these New Testament authors provide a genealogy of Joseph alone, although these genealogies severely contradict each other. As mentioned above, Joseph’s genealogy is irrelevant to Jesus because according to Christian doctrine, Joseph was not Jesus’ father.

I should mention that according to both Catholic and Protestant tradition, whereas Matthew’s genealogy is that of Joseph, Luke’s genealogy is of Mary. Although this tradition is completely alien to the words of the Gospels, it was a necessary doctrine for the church to embrace.

Nowhere in the third Gospel, or in the entire New Testament for that matter, does it state that Mary was from the House of David. On the contrary, Luke 1:27 insists that it is Joseph who was from the House of David, not Mary. In fact, Luke claims that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, who he says was a descendant of Aaron the high priest,1 placing her in the tribe of Levi, not David’s tribe of Judah. Moreover, in Luke 2:4, the author writes that the reason it was necessary for Joseph and Mary to return to Bethlehem was because Joseph was from the House of David.

There are a number of reasons why the church has a vital interest in claiming that Luke’s genealogy is through Mary’s line. To begin with, Paul claims in Romans 1:3 that Jesus was from the seed of David after the flesh. This has always been understood to mean that Paul was claiming that King David was the biological ancestor of Jesus. Although at the time Paul penned the Book of Romans, he was completely unaware that Christendom would eventually claim that Jesus was born of a virgin birth. The church desperately needed to have Paul’s statement correlate with the virgin-birth story. This was solved by insisting that whereas Matthew’s genealogy was through Joseph’s line, Luke’s genealogy was through Mary’s line. In this way, Jesus could now be from the seed of David after the flesh through Luke’s genealogy. Claiming Luke’s genealogy is through Mary’s line, not only solved the problem of what to do with Romans 1:3, but established a physical link between Jesus and King David.

Finally, it resolves an awkward discrepancy between Matthew’s and Luke’s genealogies. Whereas in Matthew’s genealogy, Joseph’s father is Jacob, in Luke’s genealogy it is Heli. By claiming that Luke’s genealogy is of Mary, Heli becomes Mary’s father and Joseph’s father-in-law. Problems solved.

NOTE: The above is from biblical point of view.

Ghazi
Facts Are The Authority!

[This message has been edited by Ghazi (edited April 02, 2000).]

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Irrefragable:
*That may be the case but the only politician among three references given is Gandhi. His comments are not considered to be based on politics because he was not seeking any office and at that time the idea of seperation was already there. So Gandhi has nothing to gain. Other two are not politicians. So the ball is back in your court *

Gandhi and Sarojini Naidu were politican of the same type. Gandhi was not a politician in real terms but was actively involved in politics. He had an active role to play in the freedom struggle and part of our freedom struggle was to put the flock together, i.e. Hindus and Muslims, and that was what he was doing. And so in the event he praised a lot about Islam and muslims. The intention was to tell them that we also respect your religion and so don't just break away on the pretext of religion only. So you see as you people were already thinking of breaking away, it was all the more reason why politicans of that time wanted to praise your religion. Same was the case about Sarojini Naidu, although a poetess, she was actively involved in that time's politics and with same considerations she praised Islam. I am not saying what they said was wrong, but it was not the complete picture and praising one religion doesn't mean it is the only religion that should be followed. You come to India and see how people praise all the religions of the world, not only Islam, but that does not follow that we should switch over.

(2) Please do that. I would love to see them. Because what I got in my sleeve you cannot match it by no means :)

I will tell you what you have in your sleeve. There must be some anti-hindu comments and some pro-muslim comments. You know what we allow people to criticise our religion because we know it will help improve us and about you, you simply issue a fatwa against them. so that explains the reason. Moreover if Gandhi or Naidu has said anything against Islam at that time, what would have happend is anybody's guess. And why talk of that time only, even now if some one raises a finger against Islam, he will have it. (so you see you keep your religion in tact by hook or by crook).

I can answer you from two different perspective. One is pure Islamic, which I am not sure that how much knowledge you do possess? The other is that ask those people don't ask me. Because they know the best and I cannot speak for them. For me Islamic reason according to Noble Quran is bottom line.

So here we have, one reason you will not give because I will not understand and other the people who pray Islam but do not convert will tell. And you don't have to tell me that Nobel Quran is the bottom line, it holds true for all your Islamic brothers, if it is otherwise you are will be branded a Kafir and then how will you go to heaven.

*I look forward to see some other quotes from these people about other religions. *

Tell me do you really want me to work on that. Do you think there won't be any quote praising any other religion in the world. You are mistaken, only I will have to do some homework.

[This message has been edited by dhir (edited April 03, 2000).]

15

Now that the reflections of Gandhi are coming on the forum, I will tell you what Gandhi's perception about world religions was:

In an article in Indian Opinion, Gandhi declared that the time had passed when the followers of one religion could 'stand say, our is the only true religion and all others are false.' Gandhi continued to emphasize the need for co-existence and tolerance between adherents of different faiths. He said, the various religions were 'as so many leaves of a tree'; they might seem different but 'at the trunk they were one'. God, Allah, Ram, Ishwar, Khuda were descriptions of the same being. "The different shapes into which gold was beaten gave rise to different names and forms; but ultimately it was all gold". God's grace and revelation were not the monopoly of any race or nation; they descended equally pon all who waited upon god. No religion was'absolutely perfect. All are equally imperfect or more or less perfect'.

Gandhi said: " Jesus is as divine as Krishna or Rama, Mohamed or Zorater. Simililary I do not regard every word of the Vedas or Koran as inspired. The sum total of eeach of these books is certainly inspired,but I miss that inspiration in many of the things taken individually. The Quran is as much a book of religion with me as the Gita and the Bible.

I will now tell you one of his quotes where he has agreed that he is relatively tender when speaking to Christians and muslim audiences, but unsparing in his criticism of the Hindus, for which Gandhi pleaded guilty. He said: "I do not claim to know as much about christianity and Islam as about Hinduism. For another, I feel that Christians and Muslims were more likely to misunderstand me than Hindus".

I CAN GIVE MORE QOUTES BUT THAT WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME ON THIS FORUM AND IN ANY CASE YOU HAVE ALREADY MADE UP YOUR MIND THAT GANDHI WAS ALL PRAISE FOR ISLAM.
He chided Christian missionaries for their irreligious gamble for converts. His opposition to conversion from one religion to another was based on principle.

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dhir:

Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you objected on Irrefragable's post that he has used references of politicians like Gandhi. Now you have used Gandhi only as your reference. I am still not sure that what your point is? What you are trying to prove? I think you are way off the target.

Ghazi
Facts Are The Authority!

17

[quote]
Originally posted by Ghazi:
*dhir:Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you objected on Irrefragable's post that he has used references of politicians like Gandhi. Now you have used Gandhi only as your reference. I am still not sure that what your point is? What you are trying to prove? I think you are way off the target.
*
[/quote]

Contradicting : Give me a sentence where I objected to Irrefragable's post on Gandhi, In fact I tried to reason why Gandhi may have said what he said. Then I asked him whether he really wanted me to quote something from Gandhi about other religions also as I do not have that handy and I may have to do some homework for that. I never said, Don't quote Gandhi. In fact Gandhi was too great a man for you people to understand whose only aim is to rule over the world on the base of religion (including by way of violence).

And then you wanted to know what I was trying to prove: I was trying to prove that a coin has two sides, all religions have their pros and cons. So don't think that these people who have praised Islam never praised any other religion or were against other religions. In fact they wanted all religions to co-exist peacefully, which was next to impossible given the rigid nature of Islam.