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Religious Affairs
Discussions on Islamic and other religious matters - especially in Pakistan and generally all over the world.

Politics / How to improve Pakistan?
Discussions about the policies, budget, state affairs and related topics. Lets hear from you if you have any ideas / suggestions to make us the BEST nation in the world!

General
Welcome to GUPLAND! Talk about anything but notice that we have lots of dedicated forums too. See if your GUPs can fit into those first.

We have forums. We have moderators who are responsible to make sure their forum threads/topics remain within TOPP’s policies and procedures.

I appreciate the importance of the subject to all of you who responded and dedicated time out of your busy lives to write your suggestions and express your concerns.
Thank you again for your respect to our position as moderators and administrators on this site.

Kash

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Administrator
Kashmirigirl

I understand what u are saying but uic doc has a point. There are several topics which you can not fit into any one category.
In this so called General Forum, if you go through diffrent threads being discussed now, you will find people are talking about religion in one thread, politics in others and so on.
First of all, being Muslim most (if not all) of our talks will be religious in one way or other. If we start discussing each of those things in religoius forum then this forum will be cumbersome. Then being a sentimental Pakistanis lots of our talks includes some aspect of Politics as well, although they are not political by itself. Then some topics are so wide that they include social, and cultural and other aspects too.
Under thses circumstances , I think the writer or the initiator of the discussion, should decide that under which forum he or she wants to post his or her topic.

uicdoc insists that his topic 'The West and the Muslim Dilemma" comes under those category which are multidimensional.You can not label it as pure religious or pure political or pure non political. His posting is alredy being debated and being discussed You should not force him to put his writings some where else by closing his thread so abrubptly. It destroys the whole continuety of the dicussion and also gives bad impression about you.

In his last thread uicdoc has proved his points very elegantly and intelligently. Unfortunately, I just found out that even that thread has also been closed, altough that was general even according to the definition given by the moderator.

This attitude of the administrator & moderator is reflective of their dictitatorship mind. Being on power,they feel they can do whatever they think is right or wrong, or in other word whatever they want.

By this attitude, we are going to loose lots of our serious and sincere writers and readers. uic doc and aadmi are among them. You will agree that they have started very interesting and very serious and relevant topics on this page. I am not sure about uicdoc but it looks like aadmi is very angry by this attitude of the administrator and moderator.
I think you should try to bring them in. But may be you you would say "OK! they are leaving. who cares? and thats exactly right.WHO CARES?

(I am sure that even this thread will be closed after my posting)

[This message has been edited by Fatah (edited February 13, 1999).]

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Thanks Fatah for your comments.

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Dear Members......

Consider this, a topic may be compared to an abstract work of art -- each viewer will interpret it with a slightly different angle. One may see the light shades, one may see the dark.....e.g. the two vases that may also be seen as two facial profiles.

From a management stand-point -- we also need to consider the strengths and weaknesses of our team, i.e. which moderator is best suited to address which categories. This is something that, as participants, we don't often think about.

The debate regarding what topic "fits" in what section is an endless one and the Admin group has come to realize that we will never be able to make everyone happy.

Our success is our membership. We recognize that and are grateful whole-heartedly for the support. However, we ask that the same recognition and appreciation for the difficulties and obstacles we face be afforded to our moderators and policies.

Dear Fatah,

Let me begin by thanking you for your comments. I am certain that it took a great deal of time and effort to put your thoughts together and post them here. I believe I speak for all at TOPP when I say that it is members like you, dedicated and committed members, that make our volunteer work worthwhile.

Having said that, I would like to take exception to some of your comments....

1 - " I think the writer or the initiator of the discussion, should decide that under which forum he or she wants to post his or her topic."

If this be the case, why the need for moderation at all? Fortunately we have a very educated and sophisticated membership.....the moderators have not simply be assigned to take care of swear words and profanity. Furthermore, each and every author has full liberty to phrase and direct the discussion in whichever way he/she desires....hence, if the thread has religious aspects but the author does not wish to focus on religion, he or she can title it accordingly and nip the dicussion in the bud if it begins to head in that direction, thereby being able to post in the General Section.

2 - "By this attitude, we are going to loose lots of our serious and sincere writers and readers. uic doc and aadmi are among them. You will agree that they have started very interesting and very serious and relevant topics on this page. I am not sure about uicdoc but it looks like aadmi is very angry by this attitude of the administrator and moderator."

Again I will have to disagree. The Gup Shup discussion forums have managed to build a reputable history. As any site goes through growing pains, so have we. People have come and people have gone. Today when we look around and take stock we can be proud of the highest calibre membership to be found in any forum in the entire cyber-world. And it is because of this that we firmly believe that valuable members like uicdoc and aadmi will continue to bring their enlightening thoughts to our desktops.

3 - "This attitude of the administrator & moderator is reflective of their dictitatorship mind. Being on power,they feel they can do whatever they think is right or wrong, or in other word whatever they want."

Sir, it is quite disheartening to see that somebody with a relatively clear thought process, like yourself, would even suggest this. I do not wish to address your accusation more than to reply that had your statement been true....Gup Shup would have died long ago.

Thank you for your comments.

Muzna Khan
Director - TOPP Discussion Forums

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I just read Muzna's response.Although I do not completely agree with her comments and I think that some body can drag this discussion further more, if he or she wants. But I think its useless now. We the reader, have our own ideas and opinion and the administration have their own "policy problems" and so called "rules and regulations".( same beaurocratic fitna).
When I register myself to this website, I agreed to follow their rules and restrictions. So being a responsible and committed citizen, I acknowledege them.

I personally feel that despite its shortcomings, its a wonderful site and we should continue to support it by our active particpation.

Fatah.
thanks for your comments and support.
Neither me nor aadmi is going to leave this site.I reassure u.
Because be believe in Faiz.

Yunhi hemesha ulejhte rahi he khalq se Zulm
Na un ki har naiee he na apni jeet naee

[This message has been edited by uicdoc (edited February 13, 1999).]

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BRAVO uicdoc.
But What about your topic ? Will it still be closed ?
this is not justice.
I agree with Fatah that this is a PURE DICTATORSHIP.
Don't make us feel that we are so stupid that we can not differentite between religious and political and other topics.
uicdoc
I think u should resign from this site if they do not reopen your topic.

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Kashmiri Girl

I agree that to run a set up some rules / regulations have to be implemented and others should follow them.

I only want to say that when you or any moderator close any thread he should also advise the participants in which forum they should start it OR if it is possible by any way for the moderators to transfer it themselves to the related forum it will be even better.

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Dear Administration/Moderator,

What may I ask is the purpose of this thread??

My take on things is, that when we register with a forum such as GupShup we either agree to follow their rules or we just don't register - we have a choice.

Once we are a member, if we don't like the way they run their biz, we again have a choice - to exit.

So, to run a thread totally based on how and why the Admin/Moderator is doing or not doing this and that, in my opinion is a waste of time and space.

But, if you guys choose to leave it open, that is fine with me because I for one, have never voiced against the Admin, since I don't think there are any restrictions on my leaving, if and when I find I can't modify my expressions according to the prevailing Rules and Regs.

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Dear Administrator !
First I thought that I should let this debate go like the way uicdoc has done. But I think he is a Shareef Insan that he let you go so easily. But I am different. If I feel that some thing is wrong I should go after that till the end. What ever you wrote yesterday its nothing but lame excuses and false interpretation of the ideas.
Its against my ethics that I see some body is saying wrong and I let it go. So bear with me.
First of all this discussion of to day is now not related to any particular topic anymore (I mean uicdoc' topic) but now we will be talking about the general attitude--the attitude which I call authoritarian and totalitarian attitude--- an attitude which is very common among the beaurocrates in our dear home land and being in the same home land and claiming the Official Web Page of the country, you are inheriting this attitude as well.
Let me go through your own writings and word and I will show to you and to my readers that What I mean when I talk about "the attitude."

A)* "Consider this, a topic may be compared to an abstract work of art -- each viewer will interpret it with a slightly different angle. One may see the light shades, one may see the dark.....e.g. the two vases that may also be seen as two facial profiles."

Do you really thinks that readers of this site are so stupid that they can not differentiate that which topics are religious and which are political and which are philosophical and which belongs to nonserious and light sites. No of course not.

B)* "From a management stand-point -- we also need to consider the strengths and weaknesses of our team, i.e.which moderator is best suited to address which categories...."
Two things, First of all I don't think that moderating this site is such a demanding and difficult job that you need very highly qualified moderators. Your moderators off and on tend to give their views and opinion about different threads in this site and any body who read their writings can very well judge the intellectual depth of your moderators.
Second thing. In relation to this particular topic of The West and The Muslim Dilemma, what you are trying to say that if this topic would have been posted in the GENERAL FORUM then the moderator of this site (which is happen to be poor Kashmiri Girl) is not capable enough or not qualified enough to run this discussion in this site as compare to Tariq Khan who runs the RELIGIOUS FORUM.

Khud hi batlao ke hum batlaen kiya

C)* ".....If this be the case, why the need for moderation at all?...."
By quoting my remarks here, you did the same things which lots of biased and prejudice people do when they have no better excuse or explanation ie to modify the statement or tell the half truth.
Anybody who will read my first posting can see it that what did I write and what did I mean by that.
I said that most of the topics are specific and clear and people know where to post them. How ever some of the topics are multidimensional, ie they have religious, political, social and cultural aspects embodied in it. These are few (not all)of the postings which are difficult to decide. Under these circumstances I thought we should let the writer or the initiator of the discussion to decide where he or she wants to post the writings.
These are complete statements, and I still insist on that.

D)* " Today when we look around and take stock we can be proud of the highest caliber membership to be found in any forum in the entire cyber-world."
Oh MY God, what I am reading here. Are these words from the pen of a person who is holding a responsible post here or these are from a child who wants to brag and lives in their own foolish paradise. Do you even understand what ate you claiming here. Are you nuts. Have you gone through different websites of the world ? I would suggest you to go through the Dawn (news Paper)'s first page and click on 1000 best sites of the world and read them care fully and analyze them you will find them that we still at the primitive stage and we have lots of thing to do and long way to go. I have no doubts that among the other Pakistani web site. this web site is much better and the standard of discussion and people who participate here are serious and educated than then the other Pakistani sites but to compare it with the world and saying that it the worlds best is nothing but bragging. Please give me break.
ITNE NA BARAH PAKIYE-DAMAN KI HIKAYAT
BAD-E-QABA DEKH, ZARA CHAKE-GARIBAN DEKH

E)* In the last part of yout letter you seem pretty up set that I called the attitude of the administrator a DICTATORSHIP.
Let me quote you your own writing and you will realize that I was not wrong
".... Each and every author has full liberty to phrase and direct the discussion in whichever way he/she desire...hence, if the thread has religious aspects but the author does not wish to focus on religion, he or she can title it accordingly and nip the discussion in the bud if it begins to head in that direction..."
That's exactly uicdoc did. His discussion in religious page was initially on religious tolerance however then it started turning into more philosophical discussion of the West and the attitude of Muslims. This was all started when PG quoted an article from the DAILY DAWN about this and aadmi rebut it very strongly and the whole discussion was changed. I was reading it very care fully and interestingly. Then uicdic nipped it and brought it to general form because the discussion was no more a religious one.
People started giving their ideas here, I my self was preparing for this discussion and gathering the material from English history and literature to prove my points.
But What happened. One day the thread was closed because it was felt that this is religious discussion( which everybody know is not and is reflective of superficial depth of your moderators)And when uicdoc wrote another writings and aadmi strongly oppose your decision in another posting, even that posting was closed and it was said its was technical error. I never heard any error like this before.
This is what a dictatorship is.
I know that after my posting here, this thread will be closed too. and that will prove my points.

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Rabiya Noor
I know what you are saying but everybody has rightto express herself here. No body has right to say other people to leave just beacause she has diffrence of opnion. We arenotliving in a sociaty where we had to close our mouth and pen because ZILLE SUBHANI KA HUKM THA.
So please be tolarent, If you donot want to response thats fine but and let the other people say what ever they are saying, as long as they are not loosing their tongue.

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Few words to UICDOC

we started this dicussion because we felt that somebody did injustice to you. We did not like the way you gave up and responded to administrator.Its shows your weakness and cowardness. I think aadmi reponded better than you to this postings. Please don't be give up so easily. This was your right and all are with you.

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Dear Member Fatah,

Your discontentment with the way this discussion forum is moderated is very clear. I thank you again for your comments and wish you the very best in your endeavour to find a discussion board that suits your liking.

Take care.

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Re: General Forum

thanks for the thread.
we all should become one nation only irrespective of our muslim casts or being non muslim. Let God (almighty ) do its job of sending people in hell or heaven. If we all believe that none of us is GOD (almighty) and so we can not issue judgement against each other believes.

Second thing when GOD has fixed his principle and all muslims, christians and jews believe as primary pillars for a believer of GOD. (ousoulay Dein) that we must believe in that there is just ONE day of JUdgement assigned by the GOD to judge who has more hellish deeds than heavenly deeds or visa versa. That day thing would be decided who will deserve heaven and who will deserve hell.

So we all should stop declaring that we are the best, this is what all cast of the muslims do.

let us believe firmly that GOD has fixed his principle for a day of a judgement and HE wants us to have full fraith in this day as primary obligation to be a muslim.

Now, believing on the day of judgement we all know that GOD has not yet decided for all of us or anyone else yet.

LOOO JEEE gal HEEE mukh Geyyee seee.

There is going to be peace all over the pakistan. This is what we are seeking for.