Gaza Beach deaths/Investigations

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

***According to the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem, the army has killed 1,722 Palestinian civilians - more than one-third of them minors -

B'Tselem argues that a lack of accountability and rules of engagement that "encourage a trigger-happy attitude among soldiers" have created a "culture of impunity" - a view backed by the New York-based Human Rights Watch, which last week described many army investigations of civilian killings as a "sham ... that encourages soldiers to think they can literally get away with murder". ***

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

when Hamas and other use children as part of their attacks on Israel, what do u expect?

Blame Hamas for using the children in the first place, because it is easier for children to get across the checkpoints than adults...


When you have an enemy which is sworn to destroy you, kills your women and children at will and purposly target to cause maximum casualties, isnt the israeli reaction a normal human reaction to such things?

Army investigations into civilian killings may be a sham but when the enemy is sworn to destory israel, you can see the lack of vigor on israel's part to pursue the matter further

its not a jewish thing, its human nature....

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

Military service in Israel

17 years of age for compulsory (Jews, Druzes) and voluntary (Christians, Muslims, Circassians) military service; both sexes are eligible for military service; conscript service obligation - 36 months for men, 21 months for women (2004)

Re: Israel Inciting Palestinian Civil War


And you want to believe a US based group only when it is convenient and matches your opinion? That's very telling. Besides, the article quotes one man's interpretation of events, that's not exactly a full fledged investigation is it?

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there are differences, just as there are differences between republicans and democrats
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No, not really. Dems and Repubs do not have their own armed militias conducting street battles. The differences between these factions are enormous and there are backers for both sides. So don't blame the Jews. Why wouldn't they back the group that is not calling for their destruction and lobbing missles into their country?

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it has everything to do with the party's position. if israel is not under any obligation to follow international law, why should hamas? if israel can ignore UN resolutions, why should hamas make the first conciliatory step of recognizing israel?
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Israel has already made that first step and many others, they just need a partner to negotiate any further. How do you expect a country to negotiate with an entity whose goal it is to destroy their country and not even recognize their right to exist?

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

:hehe: You are funny. May be you should ask Afghanis who are outside Kabul on how effective is the Afghan government and what it has done for the “common” people there.

“All the Afghans agree” :rotfl:

:rotfl: now you have lost any credibility.

Iraq is turned into cannon fodder and it is Arab/Islamic world’s fault :omg: yet another gem! Please go on and further amuse us.

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

NameInUse: on a serious note, please lets stay on topic (Palestine/Israel issue).

Re: Israel Inciting Palestinian Civil War

this one man was a former pentagon advisor, who now works as a military advisor for Human Rights Watch.

“It’s so obviously not a landmine that I was surprised the Israelis went down that road,” he said.](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060614/wl_mideast_afp/mideastunrestgazabeachinquiryrights_060614093907;_ylt=Aio4d.UclIykcrYpoTH54RQUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan was equally sceptical about such claims, describing them as “odd.”

the israeli army itself is now conceding the possibility that the explosion was israeli in origin

JERUSALEM (AFP) - The military conceded old Israeli ordnance could have been responsible for the death of eight Palestinians at a beach picnic in the Gaza Strip, hours after absolving itself of any blame.

i have already stated facts that you have refused to acknowledge. fact #1: Hamas was a democratically elected government. fact #2: hamas was fully cooperating and fully observing a truce and a cease-fire since it was democratically elected. fact #3: hamas, a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT, is being actively undermined and put under siege by israel and the western community, DESPITE its full observation of said cease-fire. fact#4: israel is providing arms and ammunition to hamas opponents. in my universe, providing arms and ammunition is no way to begin peaceful resolution of any conflict.

you must be purposefully ignoring the articles i’m posting. israel has not made the first step. in fact, hamas made the first step by honoring its cease-fire. israel is in violation of UN resolutions 242 and 194. until those resolutions have been honored, israel is ignoring international law and cannot be seen as reciprocating what hamas has promised and delivered.

today, ehud olmert has again emphasized his plan to unilaterally draw up israel’s borders.

PARIS (AFP) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned that his contested plan to set Israel’s borders on the West Bank with or without agreement from the Palestinians was unstoppable.

isn’t it a funny coincedence that olmert always pushes his idea for unilaterally drawing israel’s borders right after there has been infighting amongst the palestinians? he did it a few weeks ago and he’s doing it again now…right after openly declaring supplying hamas opponents with arms and ammunition. it’s a pretty strange sequence of events.

Re: Israel Inciting Palestinian Civil War

Palestinians didn't quit lobbing crackers with this so called "ceasefire by Hamasis". There is no time for ceasing the fire and sit on their butts like a mother hen trying to hatch some eggs.

Democratic government has the responsibility to create positive environment for its people. And that means accepting Israel as a partner, set up negotiations and make a deal quickly.

Are 60 odd years not enough of the likes of Hamas to realize that the only way out of this miserable existence is just one: "Negotiate with Israel". Anything else is just a bidduin style slumber on a heap of sand.

Democracy on not, it is so unfortunate to see Palestinians being subjected to the worst possible leaders. These dumb leaders have taken poor Palestinians (and in fact the whole Arab world) from one crisis to the next.

It is time to bring peace to this god-awful place called Palestine. May Allah bless these poor folks with some leader like Jinnah. Ameen!

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

Sharpnel evidence points to Israel’s guilt

  • But the official interpretation was strongly challenged by a former Pentagon battle damage expert who has surveyed the scene of the beach explosion. He said yesterday that “all the evidence points” to a 155mm Israeli land-based artillery shell as its cause.*

utd: .. Noooooooo it was Spontaneous Human Combustion

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

Since none of you has the balls to post the final findings on this thing:

While sticking to its demand for the establishment of an independent inquiry into a blast on a Gaza beach 10 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians, the Human Rights Watch conceded Monday night for the first time since the incident that it could not contradict the IDF’s exonerating findings.
On Monday, Maj.-Gen. Meir Klifi - head of the IDF inquiry commission that cleared the IDF of responsibility for the blast - met with Marc Garlasco, a military expert from the HRW who had last week claimed that the blast was caused by an IDF artillery shell. Following the three-hour meeting, described by both sides as cordial and pleasant, **Garlasco praised the IDF’s professional investigation into the blast, which he said was most likely caused by unexploded Israeli ordnance left laying on the beach, a possibility also raised by Klifi and his team. **
“We came to an agreement with General Klifi that the most likely cause [of the blast] was unexploded Israeli ordinance,” Garlasco told The Jerusalem Post following the meeting. While Klifi’s team did a “competent job” to rule out the possibility that the blast was caused by artillery fire, there were still, Garlasco said, a number of pieces of evidence that the IDF commission did not take into consideration.
The main argument between Klifi and HRW surrounded the timeline of the blast, which the IDF said took between 16:57 and 15:10, at least 10 minutes after artillery fire in the area had stopped. HRW however disputes this claim and basing itself on Palestinian hospital documentation, claims that the explosion actually took place right around the time of the IDF artillery fire.
Meanwhile Monday, The Post learned that the IDF was currently inspecting a second piece of shrapnel doctors had retrieved from one of the Palestinians wounded in the blast and currently being treated at Soroka Hospital in Beersheba. A first piece of shrapnel, examined by the IDF as well as by an independent academic institute in Beersheba was found to not have come from a 155 mm shell, the type used in IDF artillery attacks on Kassam launch sites in the Gaza Strip. The second piece of shrapnel, sources said, was currently being examined in an IDF lab.
**Garlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF’s system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip and unlike Hamas which specifically targeted civilians in its rocket attacks, the Israelis, he said, invested a great amount of resources and efforts not to harm innocent civilians. **
We do not believe the Israelis were targeting civilians." Garlasco said. “We just want to know if it was an Israeli shell that killed the Palestinians.”
**Lucy Mair - head of the HRW’s Jerusalem office - said Klifi’s team had conducted a thorough and professional investigation of the incident and made “a good assessment” when ruling out the possibility that an errant IDF shell had killed the seven Palestinians on the Gaza beach. **'We differ when it comes to other pieces of information from other sources that don’t relate to the military strike such as the timing and the type of injuries,” Mair explained. “While they [the IDF] made a very good presentation, we still think there are enough unanswered questions that have not been examined by Klifi’s team…and that is why we believe there should be an independent investigation.”
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355528023&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

alternate bolding

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,251-2230076,00.html

ISRAEL ADMITS SHELL REPORT FLAWS

From Stephen Farrell in Sudaliya

Radio and hospital reports contradict the Israeli account of fatal beach explosion

**THE Israeli Army has admitted to The Times that its official account of the explosion that killed eight Palestinians picnicking on a Gaza beach last week was flawed. The account is also contradicted by a UN radio transmission. **

The army has told The Times that its report was flawed because it failed to mention two gunboat shells fired at about the time of the deaths. It insists, however, that they landed too far away to have been responsible. NI_MPU(‘middle’);

Video footage of the anguished 11-year-old Huda Ghalia running between the corpses of her family on the beach at Sudaliya caused fury across the Arab world. Immediately the explosion Israel expressed regret and suspended all artillery fire — but never admitted responsibility.

On Tuesday the Israeli military issued the results of an investigation that exonerated itself. Officials said that the explosion could have been caused by a Palestinian landmine. “The accumulating evidence proves that [Friday’s] incident was not because of Israeli forces,” Amir Peretz, the Defence Minister, said.
Israel says that its land artillery batteries fired six shells at northern Gaza between 4.30pm and 4.48pm that afternoon, and that it can account for all but one, which was fired at 4.30pm. However, its investigation said that that shell was aimed too far away to have killed the Palestinians.

The investigation relies heavily on timing. It cites surveillance footage of the beach showing that it was quiet between 4.54 and 4.57pm, and film of ambulances apparently arriving at the scene at 5.15.

It says that the incident must therefore have happened between 4.57 and 5.10pm — at least nine minutes after it says it stopped firing land artillery.

**But The Times has established that at 4.43pm the UN received a radio call from one of its officials in northern Gaza that said: “At 16.33hrs IDF artillery shelling has started again targeting the northern area, two artillery shells so far. One of the shells fell down at the coast west of the evacuated old Dugit settlement, some casualties among the people spending their day at the . . . ” Transmissions could be picked up by anyone with a scanner, which are widely available in Gaza. **

Presented with the evidence of the UN transmission last night, Major-General Meir Kalifi, who led the Israeli investigation, insisted that the 4.33pm report was an earlier incident, near the abandoned settlement of Dugit. “[We] know of a request from the Red Cross to the Red Crescent at 4.30pm regarding one wounded individual along the beach. [We] believe that that is the case you are referring to,” General Kalifi said. “This is most likely in the Dugit area. Indeed they were shelling in the Dugit area, but the Dugit area was not near the incident. It was 700 metres away.”

However, Israeli military officials did concede that they made an error in the summary of the investigation’s conclusions concerning shells fired by ships. It cited General Kalifi as saying that all 17 naval shells were fired “approximately four hours before the incident”.

Israeli officials have now told The Times that two naval shells were fired at about the time of the deaths — at 4.24pm and 4.55pm — but that they were too far away to matter. Captain Jacob Dallal, an Israeli army spokesman, said: “The announcement was wrong. The announcement referred to the shells fired in the area of the incident before noon. We apologise.” Palestinian hospital and ambulance records — some computerised, some handwritten and far from reliable — also contradict aspects of the Israeli chronology, as do survivor accounts. Those indicate that the fatal explosion may have happened before 4.54, when Israel’s aerial cameras were trained on the quiet beach.

The logs of Kamal Adwan hospital, in northern Gaza, also show that seven patients were admitted at 5.05pm, ten minutes before Israel says it filmed ambulances arriving.

NI_MPU(‘middle’);
An Israeli air strike in Gaza killed two senior Islamic Jihad Palestinian militants last night. Palestinian doctors said that several civilian bystanders were injured in the strike.

DANGEROUS TIMES
16.30-16.48 Israel claims its ground batteries fired six shells. Investigation says all but the first at 16.30 are accounted for. Official investigation summary does not mention naval shells fired at 16.24 and 16.55, but officials say they are too far away to matter

16.43 Radio transmission from a UN field monitor in northern Gaza states: “At 16.33 IDF artillery shelling has started again targeting the northern area, two artillery shells so far. One of the shells fell down at the coast west of the evacuated old Dugit settlement, some casualties . . .”
16.57-17.10 The period when Israel says the picnickers must have died. This is based on film of beach between 16.54 and 16.57 apparently showing “nothing irregular”, on Palestinian reports of mass casualties at 17.12, and on a film showing ambulances arriving at 17.15


the IDF ground forces stopped shelling at 4:48 and the naval boats stopped shelling at 4:55…both were firing somewhere in the area where the beach murder occurred. the IDF admits that the explosion occurred between 4:57-5:10…now according to IDF report, coincedentaly, an unexploded israeli ordinance went off causing the beach murder at around the same time and in the same area as where the IDF were firing.

basically, if you believe that, i have piece of real estate i’d like to show you in brooklyn…

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

Rather than grasping at straws:

*Garlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF's system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip and unlike Hamas which specifically targeted civilians in its rocket attacks, the Israelis, he said, invested a great amount of resources and efforts not to harm innocent civilians. *

Why don't you have a word with Hamas, who by everyones admission intentionally shoots to kills civilians whenever possible.

Your double standards are showing.

How amazing you are analyzing time slices on the Israelis trying to verify a mistake, when Hamas is launching rockets around the clock. Hmmm...

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

israel is in violation of UN resolutions 242 and 194. israel has ignored international law. when will israel fulfill its obligations?

people will not be peaceful if there is no justice. this is a basic fact of humanity.

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism


Lets put the emotional cry and finger pointing aside for a few seconds, was Israel right or wrong in denying the possiblity of its shells causing the casualties? Was its investigation right or wrong?

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

Israel never kills palestinians on purpose.......

This demonizing of Israel/Jews is the typical response by the Palestinians of their own short comings and corruption and incompetence of their leadership...

What does Israel gain from blowing up a family on a Gaza beach?

Lets use the typical Muslim/Arab Conspiracy Theory Formula:

Lets try 9/11 first:

Facts: Arab terrorists hijacked planes and crashed them into WTC killing 3,000 people.

Fiction: Jews/Mossad/CIA, etc... used remote controls to fly planes into buildings so that they can invade Afghanistan and Iraq and ensalve the Islamic world

Now, how did the Muslim conspiracy theorists arrive at this?

Very simply...

Any action that works against the muslims and arabs cannot be committed by muslims and arabs but must have been committed by the enemies of muslims and arabs to deceive the world....

So in 9/11, the event was done by Jews....

So if we apply this to Gaza...

This act cannot be done by Israel because any action committed by Israel that works against the Jewish people cannot be committed by Jews but must have been committed by the enemy of the Jewish people who are the uneducated Jihal Muslims and Arabs....

And hence, Hamas and PLO are responsible for The Gaza Beach Massacare because it maligned Israel and got great sympathy from the world....

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

mercenary: seek help

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

Captain, let's focus on this quote for just one moment:

*Garlasco told Klifi during the meeting that he was impressed with the IDF's system of checks and balances concerning its artillery fire in the Gaza Strip *

Now, if you read up on US fire mission doctrine, even in times of war a US commander has a chain of command approval for urban combat that even includes a JAG lawyer. *A frikkin' lawyer has to approve the firing of a gun. *No doubt when Garlasco, a former US soldier reviewed the checks and balances in the Israeli fire control system, it probably looked a lot like US doctrine, maybe better.

So if you are the Israelis, and you have invested a lot of time and effort in a system specifically to prevent allegations exactly like this, then you investigate. The Israelis assigned a very senior, and very credible officer to investigate. Now the Israelis declared that they were regretful of the loss of life from the very beginning, but never admitted error. When they went and checked their systems, everything seemed to be functioning as expected, both the weapons and the safeguard systems. Additionally they had footage from a drone overhead.

Now, realize one thing. The Palestinians get a lot of mileage by accusing the Israelis of all sorts of attrocities. A few years ago they tried to whip up Jenin into a huge massacre, when it was nothing more than a big firefight between the Isrealis and Palestinian gunmen. Muslims worldwide are now genetically programmed like the guppy lemmings here to always believe the worst of Israel. Your very Islamic roots will be questioned if you do not fall into line and believe every Palestinian fable, true or not. The only way for the Israelis to fight this is to drag in the guy from HRW, open their Kimonos, and show him why they think they are not at fault. So to look fair and balanced, even though somewhat embarrassed, the HRW people will still want an investigation, even though the facts are fairly clear.

In sum if I were falsely accused, I would fight as the Israelis have apparently done.

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

The more that is revealed, the more it becomes apparent that Israel was not behind this...

This reminds me of the Hamas Parade where they were parading their Qassam rockets and they blew up killing 18 people and immediately they blamed Israel but later it showed it was Hamas' own faulty workmanship which caused the explosion....

Re: Gaza beach deaths/Terrorism

Once again Israel is guilty of indiscriminately killing civilians.