Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
have you even gone through the guardian article? some of them are documents in his pen. how can you dismiss it? and i dont know if he changed, im allowing for that possibility for the sake of you folks. i, as someone not really enamoured by his person would probably find it nicer to believe that he was bigoted throughout his life.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
First thing: Fighting for the rights of your own people(race,country,religion) can not be called racisim IMO. I think Gandhi was just doing that. Mandella did the same.
Also quoting some statements from his youth(when one is raw and mind is developing), and applying it on the whole life is not quite right.
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
sounds like you’re guilty of what you’re alleging Gandhi to have been in his youth!
Imagine, these little pipsqeaks jumping up and down about Gandhi!
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
well he did more than that. he objected to being placed in the same train cart as the blacks, and advocated the case for indian origin south africans having more rights than kaffirs or blacks, in addition to multiple statements reflecting contempt for kaffirs or blacks. clear indication that the racism prevalent in those times was reflected in him.
i dont think anyone is claiming to know for sure that he was a racist throughout his life. i guess the point of No.X was to show that gandhi too either was a racist or an ‘oppurtunist’ (someone who changes his stance) in desibanda’s words.
not loving gandhi makes me a racist? i dont even know what race hes from! and once again, read the article. it isnt ‘my’ allegation.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
^ so why do you think MLK was bigotted against blacks, since he embraced Gandhi's teachings?
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
perhaps mlk didnt know of his racist past, certainly its omitted in most glorifications of him. or perhaps MLK was willing to forego the faults in gandhi and gain from the better stuff from gandhi such as non violence etc. or perhaps he had some insight that we dont of gandhi renouncing his racist past. who knows. you dont have to embrace a persons entire thoughts when you are influenced by him. i dont recall him walking around in a that towel tunic thing gandhi used to wear for instance.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
The words came from gandhos own writings. now whether or not he changed is not the point here, but the point is that when he was in africa he had racist tendencies simply based on how he referred to black africans.
hey if you indians are so gung ho on Pakistanis to openly accept that Jinnah was not a perfecty human being and had his weaknesses, why does it hurt for you to admit the same especuially when the proof is in gandhis own writings. he was not god, he was not perfect.
He could have fought for the rights of indians while not putting down other races. Because white supermasicts can use the same argument that their is nothing wrong in trying to watch out for rights of their own people.
forget about Pakistanis views on it, because you will call us biased (although we cant say the same when you talk abotu jinnah or iqbal) .. just listen to south africans. After all that6 country has no political tussle with Bharat.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
Rabel & ravage - actually I don't care whether you glorify Gandhi or not. It's just a lot of fun to poke holes in the castles of air you guys build.
You really think anyone takes these slanderous ideas such as Gandhi being a racist seriously? It's simply fun to read responses like "perhaps MLK did not know"...:D Yup, according to ravage, the Mahatma who liberated India (and pakistan, you ingrates) from the British is a racist. And MLK, America's revered civil rights and black rights leader 'perhaps did not know'!:biggthumb
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
tell me when you actually have a point to make..
people arent perfect.. deal with it.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
lol @ these pakistani fantasies....how quick some people are to totally convince themselves of some half-assed conclusions based on the twisting and manipulating of his early past... all of which directly contradicts his message and mission in the highlighted 30 years of his life. fortunately, this handful of incredibly biased accusers have been given the neglect they deserve by all relevant parties, and their words and conspiracies given confinement to pakistani discussion boards. no worries, as i am still able to go to any middle-american shopping mall and purchase a Gandhi wall poster and hear nothing but praise and respect when his name is mentioned. i guess some people are just jealous that their leaders are total nothings and unknowns to the world, and have amassed nothing but a negative reputation in the eyes of the tiny minority that have actually heard of them.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
easy tiger, nobody here is twisting and manipulating anything. the roots of this controversy go back to when south africa was considering honouring gandhi and some academics from south africa created a ruckus.
so yeah, you can console yourself in your nice little poster, but you cannot deny words that were in his own pen.
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
african prisoners acting like animals? damn gandhi was a regular ku klux leader!
even your source claims gandhi saw africans on the same level of untouchables…are those the same untouchables that gandhi dedicated 2 years of his life (1932-33) to uplifting?
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
thats why its race related bigotry and not religion related bigotry. but Im glad you atleast went through the link and found the statements offensive.
anyway, are you saying that the documents are fabricated? even his (informed) supporters dont say that you know. this was quite big an year ago in SA, and your simplistic explanation doesnt really stand.
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
yes, i found those clearly uneducated comments offensive and it indicated the credibility level of these accusers. such blatant contradictions are hard to ignore.
i don’t know if they were fabricated, but i can say to a certainty - and i know you’d agree - that the bias level of the sources is off the charts and the interpretations and context given in such sources are total claptrap. regardless, the level of “racism” found in those comments is not indicative of any kind of hatred…nothing worse than the views of most of your favorite classical authors, poets, scientists, world leaders, etc. of that era and prior. are you prepared to berate thoreau, wells, nobel, yates, lincoln, etc. etc.? each of them have espoused far more “racist” sentiments than Gandhi ever did.
and how was this “quite big in SA”…i found exactly one news source with an article covering that incident - and it just happened to be the one you posted…hmm. and a khalistani author of an anti-Gandhi book writing to a johannesburg newspaper doesnt exactly constitute a “ruckus by scholars and historians”. fact remains that the statue still stands and these accusations remain dismissed. of course a handful of pakistani googlers may be convinced that they know a deep dark secret that the whole world is somehow oblivious to…but that doesnt mean too much.
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
stick to one stance. on the one hand you’re insinuating that this issue exists because people are trying to tar gandhi unnecessarily, and the statements are a sad reflection on the credibility of the people making the allegations, on the other hand you’re saying it isnt a big deal. what is it? a statement so damning its incredulous and brings the world down or so insignificant its irrelevant?
i was foremost in saying that it isnt surprising that gandhi was a racist, given the racist society around him at that time. at the same time what isnt surprising isnt necessarily okay.
could it be because it isnt current anymore? anyway, heres an indian website’s column thats fairly well known, by an indian author, that explictly lists out references and everything. just incase you have notions of baseless pakistani conspiracies against your mahatma.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
so gandhis use of derogatory terms for africans and his insistsnce on maintaining a separation between the indians and africans whom he noted as being below indians is all okay.
did gandhi do some good things in his life later on and as a result got shot by a hindu fundamentalist, sure, was he the same man in his older age as he was in his younger years.
But let his own statements stand in proof of his own intolerance. The world knows Gandhi of the later years who although calculating politically may not have made racist statements as he made during his days in Africa. His statements show a different side of gandhi, which I see our indian pals have a hard time accepting.
Re: Gandhi's racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
^ rebel & ravage - I have to admire your audaucity. You have managed to convince yourself that Gandhi, the greatest man to walk this earth in atleast 1399 years, is a racist! what more can I say. I have given you evidence and arguements to the contrary, I have appealed to your sense of latent decency and I have tried shaming you to thinking logically. All these attempts seem to have had very little impact - fortunately, the loss is yours!:p
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
haha.. evidence? that MLK wouldnt have liked gandhi if he was a racist? look at this:
these are the references from the previous article. theres quotes from the ‘collected works’ for gods sake 
rakho apna ‘evidence’ apne pas.
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
ravage, now we know how you got your mind corrupted. Here is some antidote. Guess who’s being quoted here: "**“It is better to allow our lives to speak for us than our words. God did not bear the cross only two thousand years ago. He bears it today, and he dies and is resurrected from day to day. It would be a poor comfort to the world if it had to depend on a historical God who died two thousand years ago. Do not, then, preach the God of history, but show him as he lives today through you.” **
Re: Gandhi’s racism - split from Allama Iqbal thread
Atlantis, you have brazenly ignored Gandhis own words which reek of racism against blacks. Dont show me his later words to show that he changed his tune later and grew up to be an accha baccha, but there is simply no excuse for his own words. None.
maybe Gandhi of India had matured and ceased to be the bigot that was the gandhi of africa.