Ravage said: Last edited by ravage; Mar 21st, 2009 at 05:39 PM.. Reason: dont imply others are idiots
YAZDI SAYS: Ravage I do not understand why you edited my post just because a guy from another culture is saying something wrong and you want to show you are politically correct.
I quoted Voltaire when he said " Religious hatred was born when first scoundrel met the first idiot (who was incited)..
And yes I do maintain that Mr Gandhi is a scoundrel who uses religion to preach hate and people who defend/follow him as idiots who are incited by this scoundrel and I am not ashamed of this statement, and by no means implying Mr. Punjabi is an idiot. I was just reminding Mr. Punjabi his promise that if evidence is shown that Mr. Varun was rediculing muslim names he will condemn Mr. Varun. Now instead of fulfilling his own promise he is requesting mods that he has been called an idiot and they should take notice. What kind of a sportsman is he. I request the mods not to be too much politically correct to please the guest on this issue...
Mr. Punjabi from USA is all the way trying to defend Mr. Gandhi as he claimed that he knows him personally and he could not have rediculed muslim names. I posted a video where he is clearly rediculing muslim names saying the muslim names scare people at night. Mr. Punjabi from USA said in earlier post that he would condemn his leader Varun Ghandi if he is proven Mr. Gandhi really said that. Instead he implied that I called him an idiot, and you edited my post. I stayed short of calling him an idiot and gave him a proof beyond any doubt that the person he is defending really said that. Instead of honouring his promise to condone the action he asked the mods that I am impying that he is an idiot. I think Mr. Punjabi should either show us that the evidence provided is doctored, otherwise should honour his committment.
Otherwise the forum reader will be implying that Mr. Punjabi is one of those people who are incited by scoundrel religious hate mongers like Mr. Varun Gandhi....
*If he really made fun of Muslim names then I agree with you that its cheap & pathetic and should not be condoned. As of now, he has denied it and given Varun Gandhi's history I am not willing to believe anything till its proved one way or another. *
Ravage said: Last edited by ravage; Mar 21st, 2009 at 05:39 PM.. Reason: dont imply others are idiots
YAZDI SAYS: Ravage I do not understand why you edited my post just because a guy from another culture is saying something wrong and you want to show you are politically correct.
I quoted Voltaire when he said " Religious hatred was born when first scoundrel met the first idiot (who was incited)..
And yes I do maintain that Mr Gandhi is a scoundrel who uses religion to preach hate and people who defend/follow him as idiots who are incited by this scoundrel and I am not ashamed of this statement, and by no means implying Mr. Punjabi is an idiot. I was just reminding Mr. Punjabi his promise that if evidence is shown that Mr. Varun was rediculing muslim names he will condemn Mr. Varun. Now instead of fulfilling his own promise he is requesting mods that he has been called an idiot and they should take notice. What kind of a sportsman is he. I request the mods not to be too much politically correct to please the guest on this issue...
Mr. Punjabi from USA is all the way trying to defend Mr. Gandhi as he claimed that he knows him personally and he could not have rediculed muslim names. I posted a video where he is clearly rediculing muslim names saying the muslim names scare people at night. Mr. Punjabi from USA said in earlier post that he would condemn his leader Varun Ghandi if he is proven Mr. Gandhi really said that. Instead he implied that I called him an idiot, and you edited my post. I stayed short of calling him an idiot and gave him a proof beyond any doubt that the person he is defending really said that. Instead of honouring his promise to condone the action he asked the mods that I am impying that he is an idiot. I think Mr. Punjabi should either show us that the evidence provided is doctored, otherwise should honour his committment.
Otherwise the forum reader will be implying that Mr. Punjabi is one of those people who are incited by scoundrel religious hate mongers like Mr. Varun Gandhi....
You have put a nice spin on things :)
At this stage I am neither condoning Varun Gandhi nor condemning him. You might have undertsood that if you cared to read all my posts in this thread. I definitely claim to understand the Indian political dynamics better than a Pakistani, and have also seen Varun Gandhi's record over the past few years and the animosity towards him by the pseudo-secular Gandhis (Rahul, Sonia etc.).
Varun Gandhi has himself claimed that the video is doctored. Given that, I feel that we should give him the benefit of doubt and wait for a proof one way or another. I strongly object to someone being branded as communal just because he talks about Hindu rights.
At this stage I am neither condoning Varun Gandhi nor condemning him. You might have undertsood that if you cared to read all my posts in this thread. I definitely claim to understand the Indian political dynamics better than a Pakistani, and have also seen Varun Gandhi's record over the past few years and the animosity towards him by the pseudo-secular Gandhis (Rahul, Sonia etc.).
Varun Gandhi has himself claimed that the video is doctored. Given that, I feel that we should give him the benefit of doubt and wait for a proof one way or another. I strongly object to someone being branded as communal just because he talks about Hindu rights.
It has become a fashion to blame the conspirators for all that is going wrong with the BJP. The election commission of India has found Varun guilty and the BJP is not questioning the Election Commission verdict. Varun Gandhi can claim that the tapes were doctored for all he wants.
Varun was addressing a public gathering and obviously he would have his own version the tape. If he is so innocent why cant he produce that tape. He obviously knows that he is guilty and is just taking the easy way out by claiming a conspiracy.
Exactly ! This flexibility of Hinduism and the fact that one can practice Hindu religious customs without formally being initiated into it, leads to the perception of them being Hindus. The religion in flexible enough to allow them to practice Hinduism, However, technically a non Hindu cannot become a Hindu. Some religious leaders in the past have tried to introduce this idea of conversion into Hinduism mainly to get the Hindus who were forcibly converted to other religions back into Hinduism.
However, coming back to the topic on hand, Sanjay Gandhi was born to a Parsi dad and Maneka Gandhi was a Sikh. So how does that make Varun Gandhi a Hindu ?
Think what you want man, i give up.
and yes, no ones sure whether Feroze Gandhi was a Parsi or son of a Muslim dad and a Parsi mom.
and Parsis dont see children of mixed marriages as Parsis.
plus, after Indira and Feroze separated, the children went with Indira, and later followed their mom's religion.
and he belongs to BJP {Bakwas Jahil Party} and for them, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains come under the Hindu fold.
and whats all that about Varun Gandhi himself saying that the tapes were messed with. obviously, he would say that, after all chor kabhi nahi bolta ki woh chor hai.
plus the EC has ruled that the tapes were fine, no messing around, and Varun is guilty. so what is your thinking about him, now? or the pseudo-seculars had bribed the EC too?
BJP is going down the stinky flush soon.
It has become a fashion to blame the conspirators for all that is going wrong with the BJP. The election commission of India has found Varun guilty and the BJP is not questioning the Election Commission verdict. Varun Gandhi can claim that the tapes were doctored for all he wants.
Varun was addressing a public gathering and obviously he would have his own version the tape. If he is so innocent why cant he produce that tape. He obviously knows that he is guilty and is just taking the easy way out by claiming a conspiracy.
Last I heard BJP was asking for an independent forensic expert to evaluate the tapes :)
In case you have not heard, there is another tape out in which Varun Gandhi is supposedly spewing venom against Sikhs. This confirms my earlier doubts, since his mom is a Sikh.
Last I heard BJP was asking for an independent forensic expert to evaluate the tapes :)
In case you have not heard, there is another tape out in which Varun Gandhi is supposedly spewing venom against Sikhs. This confirms my earlier doubts, since his mom is a Sikh.
To get votes, ppl lick anything.
maybe he is playing on the "Oh, the bustards killed my Granddy!" card?
but then EC, which is an independent body, did clarify, Varun IS guilty.
All the EC said was that based on the tapes Varun was guilty. However, they have not investigated or commented on whether the tapes were doctored which has been Varun Gandhi’s stand.
And don’t even get me started on the EC’s independence. Navin Chawla, the CEC, is a known Congress stooge.
ya buddy Navin Chawla is a stooge. Varun is a saint. Varun did not make any derogatory statements.. What next
Either you have not been following the news lately, or you are a diehard BJP opponent.
Chief Election Commissioner Gopalaswami had moved to have Naveen Chawla removed from the election commission for coruption a couple of months ago. BJP had supported the recommendation but the Congress rejected it and its handpicked President of India went along with it.
This is obviously payback time by the Election Commission :p
At this stage I am neither condoning Varun Gandhi nor condemning him. You might have undertsood that if you cared to read all my posts in this thread. I definitely claim to understand the Indian political dynamics better than a Pakistani, and have also seen Varun Gandhi's record over the past few years and the animosity towards him by the pseudo-secular Gandhis (Rahul, Sonia etc.).
Varun Gandhi has himself claimed that the video is doctored. Given that, I feel that we should give him the benefit of doubt and wait for a proof one way or another. I strongly object to someone being branded as communal just because he talks about Hindu rights.
Please be assured I read all your posts carefully before posting my own thoughts on the subject. Rather I made my own research from different indian publications and youtube of different Indian news channels before I made any comments. And please be assured that I am not calling anyone comunal, although personally I think people who claim to do national politics in any country should not be talking about the rights of any specific group of people on the basis of religion, ethnicity, colour or creed. In the end they tend to divide poeople and create hatred, and any politics based on hatred is negative politics and fruits of this kind of politics will always be negative. Anyway it's my personal opinion and you have every right to disagree with me.
Coming back to the topic being discussed, basically what you are saying is that you do not trust the footage released by a reputable Indian news channel and you do not trust the ruling of election commisioner. For you the words of Mr. Varun Ghandi are more credible. If you take only people like Varun for their words, and ignore any evidence provided to you then I think you should take all the militant Islamic groups on their words only to prove that you are a fair person.
Are you willing to give benefit of doubt to Islamic religious extremist also....judging from your earlier posts in other threads it does not seems to be the case. First of all you should take the state of Pakistan for their words when they say that the state of Pakistan is not involved in Mumbai attacks. Why benefit of doubt is only for Mr. Varun Gandhi.
I am just trying to understand your logic and way of thinking. Please enlighten me, as for me one wrong is one wrong and another wrong are two wrongs. For me Islamic religious extremist are one wrong and Hindu religious extremist are two wrong and should be equally condemned. I may be wrong with this way of thinking and I am always willing to learn specially from the people from other cultures and be surprised. And please note I'll change my stance if you are able to convince me logically.
Re: Gandhi scion faces criminal charges over anti-Muslim speech
^ Well, if you read my posts and other indpendent sources, then you missed some very important points.
1.Varun Gandhi's track record has not been communal.
2.The timing of the release of the tapes is suspicious.
3.The EC is obviously biased ( 2 months ago there was a big push to have him removed for the same reason and he survived only because of Congress).
4.varun Gandhi is half Sikh, so his supposed attack on Sikhs seems very suspicious.
5. Varun Gandhi is BJP's best weapon to counter Congress's Nehru-Gandhi legacy i.e. Rahul & Priyanka, so what better than to attack him on his "anti-secular" credentials.
Hence I feel that unless an independent investigation can prove the veracity of the tapes I would not like to jump to any conclusions.
^ Well, if you read my posts and other indpendent sources, then you missed some very important points.
1.Varun Gandhi's track record has not been communal.
2.The timing of the release of the tapes is suspicious.
3.The EC is obviously biased ( 2 months ago there was a big push to have him removed for the same reason and he survived only because of Congress).
4.varun Gandhi is half Sikh, so his supposed attack on Sikhs seems very suspicious.
5. Varun Gandhi is BJP's best weapon to counter Congress's Nehru-Gandhi legacy i.e. Rahul & Priyanka, so what better than to attack him on his "anti-secular" credentials.
Hence I feel that unless an independent investigation can prove the veracity of the tapes I would not like to jump to any conclusions.
It's a fair stance and I totally agree with you that you should not condemn Mr. Varun Gandhi unless an independent enquiry commission finds him guilty and a court verdict is available where he is found guilty. I however expect the same fairness from you and in future and hope you will not condemn any Islamic extremist and militant group unless an independent enquiry commission makes the probe against them and a neutral independent judiciary finds them guilty. I hope being a fair man today you will give your solemn committment on this...
Judging from your post above I am sure you must be regretting what you had been posting earlier in the forum and there will be no harm if you condemn your own postings from the past where you were eager to jump to conclusions when it came to muslim militants and you started condemning them without any independent probe commission...you can always admit your past mistakes and prove furthur your fair thinking....I admit I got a lesson of fairness from you today, but will feel much better if my teacher practises what he preaches...
Re: Gandhi scion faces criminal charges over anti-Muslim speech
^ Nice spin of words again ;) But your arguement is not logical. Varun Gandhi cannot be compared to Islamic extremists or Pakistan since both of them have proven their credentials (or lack of them) over time.
Let the veracity of these tapes be proven, and I assure you that we will not be having this conversation next time Varun Gandhi says something :)
^ Nice spin of words again ;) But your arguement is not logical.
Mr. Punjabi, can you tell me how my words are mere spin of words and not logical as I applied the same logic you apply in one instance and take the other instnace for granted....Golden Universal rule: Do not do unto others which you do no like for yourself...
[QUOTE]
Varun Gandhi cannot be compared to Islamic extremists or Pakistan since both of them have proven their credentials (or lack of them) over time
[/qUOTE]
wow wow wow...such a sweeping statement,,,,being a fair man you must be having a result of an independent enquiry probe....can you share with us...being a fair man as you claim you are I am sure you can not make such a sweeping staement without an independent enquiry ....Please do share with us the credentials of Pakistan and Islamic extremist as per independent enquiry probe which lead you to such a sweeping conclusion....please post relevent link or otherwise please do shut up to make such sweeping statements....being a fair man as you claim...
[quote]
Let the veracity of these tapes be proven, and I assure you that we will not be having this conversation next time Varun Gandhi says something :)
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough....I totally agree....but please refrain from mud throwing on others until then....
wow wow wow...such a sweeping statement,,,,being a fair man you must be having a result of an independent enquiry probe....can you share with us...being a fair man as you claim you are I am sure you can not make such a sweeping staement without an independent enquiry ....Please do share with us the credentials of Pakistan and Islamic extremist as per independent enquiry probe which lead you to such a sweeping conclusion....please post relevent link or otherwise please do shut up to make such sweeping statements....being a fair man as you claim...
Enough evidence has been provided to Pak & others (USA,UK etc.) about Pak elements being involved in 26/11. How is that for starters ? They have believed the evidence and have pressurized Pak to act.
The only Pakistanis who deny Pak involvement are the ones living in denial. I am sure the day the terrorist come knocking at their doors, they will also start believing.
Enough evidence has been provided to Pak & others (USA,UK etc.) about Pak elements being involved in 26/11. How is that for starters ? They have believed the evidence and have pressurized Pak to act.
The only Pakistanis who deny Pak involvement are the ones living in denial. I am sure the day the terrorist come knocking at their doors, they will also start believing.
Which other independent agency do you want ?
I do not live in a state of denial and I do admit the existence of extremist elements in my country and I have always condemned them and will continue to the same....you don't have to teach me that...
Enough evidence has been provided to You against Mr. Varun Gandhi and hindu extremist...do you have the guts to condemn them my friend based on evidence or you will wait for independent probe and court verdict...
^ Nice spin of words again ;) But your arguement is not logical. Varun Gandhi cannot be compared to** Islamic extremists or Pakistan since both of them have proven their credentials (or lack of them) over time.**
So basically what you are saying is whenever a crime is committed we must determine the religion and nationality of the accused:
1) In case of a hindu accused there should be independent enquiry. In case of BJP supporter the commission should be to the liking of BJP and anyone with slightest doubt of leaning towards Congress should not be accepted in the probe commission.
2) In case of a muslim and specially a Pakistani muslim, their guilt should be preassumed.
So my friend, as an illogical person like me can not understand your logic due to lack of extra ordinary intelligence you are dispalying in your postings, is this your idea of sense of justice and fairness?
Enough evidence has been provided to You against Mr. Varun Gandhi and hindu extremist...do you have the guts to condemn them my friend based on evidence or you will wait for independent probe and court verdict...
The evidence against Varun Gandhi could be "doctored" as claimed by him. There is sufficient reason for Congress to doctor the tape, given that elections are around the corner and he could prove a threat to the other Gandhi scions :)
I dont think any of those exceptions apply to Pak and the extremist groups within it.
So basically what you are saying is whenever a crime is committed we must determine the religion and nationality of the accused:
1) In case of a hindu accused there should be independent enquiry. In case of BJP supporter the commission should be to the liking of BJP and anyone with slightest doubt of leaning towards Congress should not be accepted in the probe commission.
2) In case of a muslim and specially a Pakistani muslim, their guilt should be preassumed.
So my friend, as an illogical person like me can not understand your logic due to lack of extra ordinary intelligence you are dispalying in your postings, is this your idea of sense of justice and fairness?
There you go on your victim trip again.....
Unfortunately, if you have presumed yourself to be a victim from the very beginnig there is very little I can say that will convince you otherwise.
As I said, time will tell whether Varun Gandhi is guilty or not and the voters decision will be final.
