Friedman:Death to Dictators

Once again, Friedman hits the nail on the head. No longer are Iranian students shouting “Death to America”, they are looking inward at the real cause of Muslim problems. Once again Iran is 20 years ahead of the rest of the Islamic world:

Death to Dictators
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Sometimes you’re reading the newspaper and a quote just jumps out at you. I had that experience last week while reading an Associated Press story from Iran about the mounting student protests against Iran’s hard-line clerical leaders. Deep in the story, I came upon this sentence: “On Sunday, more than 2,000 protesting students chanted `Death to dictatorship’ and condemned anew the death sentence against a prominent university professor.”

I had to rub my eyes. Did I read that right? The Iranian students who had practically invented the chants “Death to America” and “Death to the Great Satan” had — on their own — changed the tape. Now they are chanting “Death to dictatorship.” And because they are, there is hope for the post-9/11 world.

No, I am not getting carried away by one chant. Iran’s hard-line clerics have the power to crush the student-led democracy movement anytime they please. Yes, Iran’s bad guys have all the power to do that — but none of the legitimacy to do it. And that is why they are hesitating. The hard-line clerics have lost their legitimacy with a wide swath of Iranians, particularly the young, who have concluded that it’s their own hard-liners — not America — who are to blame for Iran’s economic woes, political paralysis and isolation.

The Iranian students chanting “Death to dictatorship” may not be able to do anything about it, but the fact that they’ve identified their real problem as their own bad mullahs, not outsiders — and their real solution as true democracy, not some rigged Islamic version — is a big change. When Arab Muslims on the other side of the gulf draw the same conclusion — that it is their own autocrats, religious fanatics and education systems that are holding them back, not America — we will be on the road to curing the madness of 9/11.

What are the chances of that? Some days they feel very low. Look at the shameful comments just made by Saudi Arabia’s interior minister, Nayef bin Abdel Aziz, who told a Saudi weekly that the Zionists “are behind these events” of 9/11. Yes, yes, there were 15 Saudi hijackers, but the Jews did it. How pathetic. It is that sort of escapism — “Death to the other guy” — that has retarded Arab development for decades.

But here’s the good news. The events of 9/11 have had a bigger impact than you might think. They have intensified something I would call “the conversation” among Arabs and Muslims. It has been going on in private for years, but lately some courageous voices are taking it public — shouting in their own press, “Death to the old lies.”

Consider a strong piece that just ran in Okaz, a major Saudi daily, by the columnist Abdullah Abu Sameh, who decries the fact that Muslim extremists “have stuffed the minds [of some of our youth] with a fanatic ideology and a faulty interpretation of Jihad — that it is a tool to oppress and dominate others.” He quotes an essay in the Saudi daily Asharq al-Awsat by the gutsy Abdul Rahman al-Rashed, who said that while Saudis were shocked to find so many of their youth involved in 9/11, “it is better to confront the fact than make excuses. . . . The cause of the radicalization of [our] youth was the culture of violence that has infiltrated religious education, deviating from the traditions of the conservative . . . Saudi society.” To regain peace and reconciliation with the world, Mr. Abu Sameh said, “our youths must be re-educated and violence — a concept alien to our society — must be discarded.” [Translation by Memri.]

Or consider a fine piece in Al Ahram, the main Egyptian paper, by Usama Ghazali Harb, who says the Muslim world’s predicament today is not the result of some external plot but the fact that “while the vast majority of Muslims keep silent, an extremist minority has hijacked the faith and is steering it into a confrontation with the world. . . . These extremists are supported by conservative forces that fear progress and modernity.” What the Muslim world desperately needs, Mr. Harb says, is a progressive model that works — a role Egypt could play even better than Iran. “But,” he asks, “is Egypt ready to assume such a role?”

We should not exaggerate the influence of these writers or ignore it. We should understand that they are there, that 9/11 has emboldened them to emerge and that the quicker we get this Iraq thing over, and the more we can quiet the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the more their “conversation” will gain momentum.

Wish them well. They’re our best hope for change from within — which is the only change that matters.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/15/opinion/15FRIE.html?8hpib

OG interesting article, but there are other muslim countries that have democratic systems established and working e.g. indonesia, Turkey bangladesh. as well as those that have experimented with democracy off and on and the want to be a democracy e.g. Pakistan. There are others as well. I dont think that in that regard Iranian students are innovators.

Their backlash may be against the extreme that theyhave grown up with, just like previously the extreme they had grown up with was the shah's monarchy which did not give them representation.

I can bet you, that almost any country where religious zealots are in vogue. would be hanging the same zealots a decade later because these ppl dont have the capacity to deliver any benefit to their ppl.

Pir Sahib, on target as usual. The key thing about Iran is that the idea that came in 1979 that muslim public has no say in the laws of the country. Sharia has been given by Allah, and it is the Mullahs who can interpret the law. Hence the president and the parliment can be over ruled by the Guardians of Law, who in turn can be over ruled by the Fiqh. That truly was an innovation that was not present in islamic countries historically. The same notion has been taken over by the HT parties and the wahabbis pushing Khalifa. All Aghajehri said in Iran was that the people, that is the parliment, should be allowed a say in how Islam is to be intrepreted in the context of changing times and circumstanses. People should be allowed to use their brains and not be copying the Mullahs like monkeys.

first thing the link in this post does’nt work!

Is this the Same thomas Friedman that wants war with islam York Times (Dec. 12, 2001)

Is this the Same thomas Friedman that wants Muslims to change islam so that it accepts homsexulaity as normal :bukbuk:

Ok enough of the Freidman bashing we know what view he has about islam pretty obvious. Iranian students start shouting death to dictatorship hmmm that is good nobody wants puppets anyway. America still hated you think people blind to the facts of what america is all about :yukh:

Old Lahori, sadly in some of the countries with these oppressive regimes, the only alternative or only mouthpiece availabel is such zealots. If political parties and groups were allowed to form and operate, it would take the air out of the tieres for these fanatics faster than bin laden disappeared from Afghanistan.

I think there should be an open show of support for political reform movements and representation in govt. We have to support these because thats where we are getting in trouble, if we dont support the various monarchies, we are stuck with a bunch of loons, however the monarchies know that their days are numbered in how the things were, it would be in our best interest to talk some sense into them and encourage them to have a more representative system and have some government reforms, because it will be good for them (especially since their heads would still be attached to their torsos), good for the public, because they would feel empowered and good for relations between teh countries. At the same time it will marginalize the zealots to a great extent.

Pir Sahib, I completely agree. :k:

Not to question Friedman as a personality, but just to have an overview of his articles. I never read about death to bush in America, although being a non oppressive regime, even after Bush and the American Government gave green light for "terrorist shot 2 kill" operation.
Is that legitimate for the free world?

Ali,

It is way off topic, but the whole issue of killing Al-Qaeda can be answered in two ways. First, is this or is this not a war? My understanding is that a fahtwa is a holy war, and it was declared on the US. So just because one of their “soldiers” is hiding out in a foreign country, does that mean that is is now not a war, but a criminal action?
Second, you probabably missed the fact that the Yemeni forces attempted to capture this guy and botched it.

“He said Ali, who has been on the run and was believed to be harbored by tribesmen, has been the source of a massive hunt by security forces in Yemen. An attempt to capture him late last year failed. That botched attempt left more than a dozen security forces dead.”

Sounds like deadly force might be justified even if he was a bank robber…

Back to the Friedman article. The interesting thing about Iran, is that it has cycled through the “extreme islam” phase, and is now rocking back to the middle. This was never the case with Turkey or Indonesia, and it may forbode the eventual return to the middle for other religious extremes.

OG: Most of these countries are used to lot of hot air and blather from the Governments but no real change to face things as they are. That is one of the reasons why the arab countries are now at the bottom of most lists that attempt to measure progress ( Education, research, industry, etc.). They really thought that America could be attacked without anychange to the way business was being done around the world. Surprise!! The civilized world will hunt these guys down one at a time. They can run but they are not going to able to hide. As Woolsey said, this is World War IV and it is going to take decades to fight.

My intentions were not to discuss this here in detail.

Secondly, the fathwa you are talking about came from Bin Laden, when I sum up the thoughts and opinions of all you ppl then there is contradiction. On one hand you see this not as a war between religions but on the other hand you keep saying fathwas and fundamental muslim are the cause for the whole problem.
Correct me if I’m wrong Turkey has other extremes. Students not allowed to wear hijabs is racism, being against Islamic Parties and even ban them is not very democractic, eventhough me myself is one of those who does want a clear barrier between religion and politics.
But I know this is not the core issue, core issues for the free developed and brought minded ppl of this earth are others: The States and it’s pride.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
Secondly, the fathwa you are talking about came from Bin Laden, when I sum up the thoughts and opinions of all you ppl then there is contradiction. On one hand you see this not as a war between religions but on the other hand you keep saying fathwas and fundamental muslim are the cause for the whole problem.
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Ali: There is really no contradiction here. Abortion clinic bombers in the US are primarily fundamentalist far right Christians. Yet, in arresting and jailing these folks, we do not look at this as a religious issue or that we are taking action against Christians. It's OK that they are Christians. It's not OK that they bomb or want to bomb abortion clinics.

Similarly, it's OK for people to be Muslim (even fundamentalist Muslims because not all fundamentalist Muslims want to kill Americans and Jews). It's not OK when people who happen to be Muslim want to kill Americans and Jews.

When and if the "western world" perceives that all Muslims want to kill Americans and Jews, THEN we will have a war against Islam. If this were a war between religions, the christian western world is not fighting it very well. Heck, even I could tell our armed forces where to find a whole bunch of Muslims who are not hiding in caves so that we could bomb the cr*p out of them. Why limit ourselves to a list of 100 or so who are hiding when there are literally hundreds of millions right out in the open to slaughter? Don't you think it's time to give this "War against Islam" thing a rest?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

Ali: There is really no contradiction here. Abortion clinic bombers in the US are primarily fundamentalist far right Christians. Yet, in arresting and jailing these folks, we do not look at this as a religious issue or that we are taking action against Christians. It's OK that they are Christians. It's not OK that they bomb or want to bomb abortion clinics.

Similarly, it's OK for people to be Muslim (even fundamentalist Muslims because not all fundamentalist Muslims want to kill Americans and Jews). It's not OK when people who happen to be Muslim want to kill Americans and Jews.

When and if the "western world" perceives that all Muslims want to kill Americans and Jews, THEN we will have a war against Islam. If this were a war between religions, the christian western world is not fighting it very well. Heck, even I could tell our armed forces where to find a whole bunch of Muslims who are not hiding in caves so that we could bomb the cr*p out of them. Why limit ourselves to a list of 100 or so who are hiding when there are literally hundreds of millions right out in the open to slaughter? Don't you think it's time to give this "War against Islam" thing a rest?
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MyVoice I know a person doesn't need a PhD or Masters to understand what is going on in this world. See it from the "muslims" way. Pretend that muslim is just a label and not a religion and now read the headlines of any newspaper or watch it on news channel, can you then be sure of not being personally attacked, feel harrassed or even seemed to be persecuted.
The main facts are being manipulated and misinterpreted. The best example to give to you is East timor when the Prime Minister (being a Muslim) was forced by the so called (cnn) "student rallies" to leave his seat. Mosque were burnt, houses were destroyed and muslim people being attacked and heck no not only by students. Later it was admitted all was planned by the opposition leaders.
Did you hear about all this? No im pretty sure you didnt. Now don't aks me where I got this news from.

You see the DEMOCRACY and the equality and freedom or peace situation never existed and will never exist. Democracy didnt find much of justice in old Greek System why should it change now?
Human being is greedy, jealous and selfish.
Can this be changed by a political system?!

Ali_R:
I don’t get the point you are trying to make. I’m sure that I am like most Americans who want to know about things that most directly affect me, my family, my friends and my country. If it doesn’t really involve me or my interests, I could care less about hearing about what is or is not happening in East Timor. And that is independent of whether the people of East Timor worship Allah, Christ, God, or a tree in the backyard.

For all the complaints about how “anti-Muslim” the US media is, it may surprise you to learn that there are an equal number of complaints by Americans that the liberal, eastern, democratic press is too soft and trying too hard to be politically correct in downplaying what they perceive as the danger to western civilization posed by the militant form of Islam. Frankly, if the Old York Times and CNN were required to publish a representative sampling of anti-American, anti-Israel drivel that appears daily in GupShup’s World Affairs, I would bet the farm that the majority of Americans would support declaring war against Islam right now and getting the battles over with so that future generations don’t have to do the job. Since most Americans just don’t think in terms of hating people based on religion, ethnicity, race, country of origin and the like, they would be absolutely shocked to see what many of the supposedly best and brightest, most advantaged from Muslim majority countries think of them. Sometimes what I read on this board even scares the bejeezus out of me.

The Iranians are very much socially aware, and that leads to political awareness-something which all other muslim populations lack.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Ali_R:
I don’t get the point you are trying to make. I’m sure that I am like most Americans who want to know about things that most directly affect me, my family, my friends and my country. If it doesn’t really involve me or my interests, I could care less about hearing about what is or is not happening in East Timor. And that is independent of whether the people of East Timor worship Allah, Christ, God, or a tree in the backyard.

For all the complaints about how “anti-Muslim” the US media is, it may surprise you to learn that there are an equal number of complaints by Americans that the liberal, eastern, democratic press is too soft and trying too hard to be politically correct in downplaying what they perceive as the danger to western civilization posed by the militant form of Islam. Frankly, if the Old York Times and CNN were required to publish a representative sampling of anti-American, anti-Israel drivel that appears daily in GupShup’s World Affairs, I would bet the farm that the majority of Americans would support declaring war against Islam right now and getting the battles over with so that future generations don’t have to do the job. Since most Americans just don’t think in terms of hating people based on religion, ethnicity, race, country of origin and the like, they would be absolutely shocked to see what many of the supposedly best and brightest, most advantaged from Muslim majority countries think of them. Sometimes what I read on this board even scares the bejeezus out of me.
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MyVoice maybe you haven't seen much of this world as I can assume from your statements and nor have your country men. There is much more in this world than just the American eagle and the statue of Liberty. I can assure you that.
The "anti-Muslim" label is a valid one and as you already mention if it doesn't affect you DIRECTLY you care less about it. Same goes for your registration here at GS, but strangly you haven't had a (good) look at some Isreali forums, where the most insulting post of mine would sound like a compliment in comparision.

I guess I already tried to make my point and It's kinda strange that a intelligent person like you didn't WANT to understand, but then it's not a surprise and it only sums up my post above and proves it's context and contents to be justified and suitable here.

You might wipe out a culture, their people and destroy their land but you won't be able to change the mind set of their ancestors.
Not now but one day justice will succeed.

Enough of my sermons, I guess.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
MyVoice maybe you haven't seen much of this world as I can assume from your statements and nor have your country men. There is much more in this world than just the American eagle and the statue of Liberty.
[/QUOTE]

Just goes to show the problem of your assumptions Ali. Someone disagrees with you or doesn't understand you and your response is that the person is not very worldly. In connection with my business and personal life, I have had the privilege of traveling to Canada, Mexico, South America, Europe, Scandanavia and the Middle East. Most of these travels have been in connection with expanding opportunities in international trade by and among peoples of differing cultures and religions.

I don't mean for you to advertise Gupshup's competition in making this request, but maybe you could post some links to Israeli forums. I'm always interested in seeing for myself what people say about world events.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
I don't mean for you to advertise Gupshup's competition in making this request, but maybe you could post some links to Israeli forums. I'm always interested in seeing for myself what people say about world events.
[/QUOTE]

MV

some of those forums, just like the rabid posts even on yahoo discussion forums, will make you wonder where these people are hiding. Not all americans think like you and not all muslims think like I.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

**
Just goes to show the problem of your assumptions Ali. Someone disagrees with you or doesn't understand you and your response is that the person is not very worldly. In connection with my business and personal life, I have had the privilege of traveling to Canada, Mexico, South America, Europe, Scandanavia and the Middle East. Most of these travels have been in connection with expanding opportunities in international trade by and among peoples of differing cultures and religions.

**

Myvoice you didn't understand it properly. The travels didn't affect your thinking and your patriotism about America although you gained experience. Respect and understanding is needed to be broad minded not immoral attitudes.

**
I don't mean for you to advertise Gupshup's competition in making this request, but maybe you could post some links to Israeli forums. I'm always interested in seeing for myself what people say about world events. **

Core issues like Palestine and Isreal are on top of such forums since they don't affect you DIRECTLY I see no reason for you to worry and if then Fraudia has posted the solution.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
Not all americans think like you and not all muslims think like I.
[/QUOTE]

That's probably a real shame on both accounts, don't you think? :)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

That's probably a real shame on both accounts, don't you think? :)
[/QUOTE]

well I hope more americans think like you, as far as more muslims thinkign like me, i dunno..I am no role model