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Originally posted by Stu: *
**There is no process for promoting tolerance
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Process in where ? In Islam or in Muslim countries?
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Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
**Cultural political and legal practices in 'Muslim' countries borrow heavily from their religion or let's say religion as they understand it.*
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Religion as they understand it. Sorry, but i still fail to see how that relates to ISLAM. Earlier on in this thread, Stu asked, You don't think that extremism is a problem in Islam? i honestly fail to comprehend how he can say that... i would have qualified it with, 'problem in some Muslims' interpretation of Islam'.
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*But can we say for a certainty that Muslims (not Islam) don't consider themself 'superior' to other religions? *
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Many individuals of ALL faiths, whether Christianity or any other religion around the world, believe themselves to be 'superior'. Christian missionaries are one, but not the only, example. And they all back this up with 'evidence' from their particular religious texts.
Nescio
You are absolutely right. i did not mean to imply Jews and Christians when i stated ‘they’ in my original post in this thread. Yes i should have qualified that. You are right, my mistake.
Similarly other individuals in this thread may also wish to reconsider whether their use of the word “Islam” is infact appropriate, and perhaps whether the word “some Muslims” would not have been more specific and accurate.
Nadia- When "some Muslims" are the mullahs and the Islamic countries who are the supposed authorities in Islam then the terms Muslim and Islam are interchangeable. The Koran is quite obviously not clear on the subject. There is no process for promoting tolerance in Islam.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Stu: *
**Nadia- When "some Muslims" are the mullahs and the Islamic countries who are the supposed authorities in Islam then the terms Muslim and Islam are interchangeable. The Koran is quite obviously not clear on the subject.*
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By that thinking, would i be correct in stating Timothy McVeigh represents the Bible ? Obviously not.
Stu, since when did you decide to give the right of 'supposed authorities in Islam', to Muslim countries ?
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*There is no process for promoting tolerance in Islam.
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*
Then you need to swallow your fear, pick up an English approximate translation of the Quran, and read it from beginning to end.
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By that thinking, would i be correct in stating Timothy McVeigh represents the Bible
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With all due respect, what are you talking about?? Did McVeigh claim to commit his heinous on behalf of, or at the behest of, the Christian God? Did priests, preachers, chaplains or christians around the world condone his action or at the very least claim to understand the reasons for his action?
When muslims commit terror they do it in the name of Islam. These mullahs claim to represent Islam. The house of Saud calls itself the keeper of Islam (or something similar). They deem themsleves the authorities not me. In the US, the vast majority of people look at McVeigh as a freak. How do "most muslims" view OBL. For that matter, how to "most muslims" view jews?
There is no process in Islam for reversing the (increasing) trend toward intolerance that causes these terrorist actions.
and BTW, I have no fear of Islam thank you very much. It's really more of a disgusted feeling about a good religion gone bad. Kinda like Kobe Bryant in a way.
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Originally posted by Stu: *
....I have no fear of Islam thank you very much. It's really more of a **disgusted feeling* about a good religion gone bad. Kinda like Kobe Bryant in a way.
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Are you comparing Islam with Kobe Bryant?
^ yes, the feelings of disgust I have for Islam are similar to the feelings I have for Kobe Bryant.
Care to comment on my basic question/comment. Where is the process in Islam to combat intolerance and extremism? Physician, heal thyself.
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Originally posted by Stu: *
**Where is the process in Islam to combat intolerance and extremism? Physician, heal thyself.
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Obviously you have not read the Quran, so i am not certain how you have decided to feel feelings of "disgust" for an entire religion when you have not even studied it.
Please guide me where in the Quran you find sanction for promoting intolerance and extremism. You keep mentioning a "process" within Islam; where is the "process" within Christianity or within any other religion for that matter ? Again, i repeat, i am not talking about what goes on in any particular country. We can take Saudi Arabia as a prime example. Months ago i opened a thread on this issue regarding Saudia Arabia's refusal to allow the construction of churches. i highlighted that as an example of a Muslim country's intolerance that violates an Islamic principle. Please note - there is a vast difference between the former and the latter.
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^ yes, the feelings of disgust I have for Islam are similar to the feelings I have for Kobe Bryant.
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That's a very, very sad statement.
Why is it that when Islam is under criticism people wave the Qur'an and ask the critics to find them the intolerance within.. but when it comes to practicing their Islam they throw the Quran over their shoulders and run to other books.
If Stu (used as an example of a critic of Islam) criticizes Islam he's aiming at it's followers.. he doesn't know better than to go read our scripture and find out which particular document or teaching within promotes this intolerance.. he just sees it and fires away..
You have a point.
Simultaneously i cannot be held responsible for each and every bin Laden or student that comes out of a closed-minded madrassa, or anyone else who doesn’t follow the Quran properly. It feels like i am a broken record because i have already said this numerous times to other individuals, but all i can do is try to improve myself. i know i am not a perfect Muslim or even a semi-good Muslim. Perhaps Allah alone is in the best position to judge me. i do certain things that i hope, Insha’Allah, are more closely aligned with Islamic principles - for the rest, i have a long way to go. i’ll take the Religion Forum as an example; i’ve highlighted many times how inconsistent racism is with Islam and i’ve taken specifically the example of Muslim Africans to illustrate this. i’ve also taken issues with the Saudi government for not permitting churches, synagogues etc to be constructed in their country. i try (which doesn’t mean i always succeed) to implement Islam in my personal beliefs. Like i said this morning to someone else, i know i am not perfect.
That’s all i’m asking - that he clarify whether he blames Muslims, or whether he blames Islam, for intolerance.
Anyways, who knows who is right who is wrong. i respect his opinion but i will disagree with it for i believe it to be extremely wrong. But he can say whatever he wants, it’s a free world. :halo:
Stu, now that you're constantly blaming Islam. Guess who said the below abt Christianity?
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."
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*Originally posted by Stu: *
^ it's not that simple. You could quote a passage from the Koran that promotes tolerance, and 5 khalifah guys would be here two minutes later with quotes like "don't trust jews or christions" and "what their hearts hide is much worse" yada, yada, yada.
then, they aren't criticized because they are muslims. There is no process for promoting tolerance
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errr when i get one our khilafah guys' case, is that not criticism? Please tell them that because they seem to think I criticize them.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
But can we say for a certainty that Muslims (not Islam) don't consider themself 'superior' to other religions? don't they believe that in order to 'establish' their religion or system it's fair to slay the people who do not agree with them? Do not some parts of their religious texts teach intolerance towards other religions (Jews etc)?
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PA, pick up the old testament, and see what that says about non jews. Which religion does not really consider itself superior? its a game of mutual exclusivity..follow my path and you will go to heaven, etc etc. become the chosen nation/tribe, be saved because unless you find jesus you are SOL.
same difference.
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*Originally posted by Stu: *
Nadia- When "some Muslims" are the mullahs and the Islamic countries who are the supposed authorities in Islam then the terms Muslim and Islam are interchangeable. The Koran is quite obviously not clear on the subject. There is no process for promoting tolerance in Islam.
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Stu so you are taking the mullahs as teh authority on Islam just like the uneducated masses do? great.
by that token anything i hear that ass clown billy Graham and his idiot kid, or the jackasses from 700 club could be seen as the supposed authorities. and thuis the term chiristian and christianity are interchangeable?
What you may want to do is, ask for some books by real scholars, i am sure people can guide you to them and broaden your horizons. Learn, understand, and grow rather than just argue.
but as you noted that you feel a sense of disgust for my faith, It makes me believe that I had over estimated you and given you more credit than warranted. No use "discussing" or "communicating" with someone who has his mind already made up and is not interested in learning.
oh well.
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i would never express it better myself. :k:
all fundamentalist religions breed intolerance. Islam is the best example because anti-semitism and a certain degree of separationism are literally ingrained in Islamic culture.
I'm not defending christianity, but there are many examples of promoting tolerance in practice in christianity to negate the racist and bigoted rantings of fundamentalist freaks like graham. Where is this happening in Islam today? There is no process for promoting tolerance, and yes Fraudia it disgusts me that a religion that can bring joy, peace and purpose to so many has been hijacked by lack of proper guidance.
Stu there are many examples of promoting peace and tolerance to try and negate the idiotic rantings of extremists. they just dont make it on the news here, just like the ppl promoting peace generate less news than the latest lame words by the grahams or pat robertson and other assorted idiots of his ilk. I do not however see a televangelist as successful as any pf those 2 idiots bringing about a tolerant agenda.
It disgusts me that extremists seem to get the limelight while others get ignored and not given the time of day, and it disgusts me that people form their opinions on what they are fed rather then finding out the truth for themselves.
and as far as anti-semitism goes.. muslims dont have the monopoly on it. the jewish movements in europe and USA were not to combat anti-semitism of muslims..but to combat anda after all Nazis were not muslim.
Once again, there are scholars out there who are combating the type of lameness that comes out of the mouths of extremists. Look em up, ask ppl here to refer you, rather than taking the lazy person's way out and making a call based on what you see in the news. Because surely i dont want ppl in other countries to just take their news services as the only true source of info.