Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
We are not talking about 2 or 5 people finding it offensive, just add a "billion" to the "2+" then you have a problem.
You actually hit the nail on the head. Whether is is 2+ or billion, the law applies equally. Equal protection under the law for free speech - however disgusting that speech may be - independent of # of people it offends.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
In our city the Islamic Center glass window was broken by thugs. (Or maybe painted with slurs - not sure which). The local Americans repaired the damage. During Eid the fire Dept did a demo at the center. People in general are good. The loud ones get heard. But majority live and let live.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
I am exaggerating the Islamophobia? Just go on any website...particularly a newspaper and look at the comments made when it concerns Islam or some muslim country. Just because you don't personally see it does not mean that it does not exist. Look at the actions of the government...and they speak for themselves.
Pakistan and Saudia don't do much for the majority so talking about a minority is a bit too much to ask, however the minorities are not the subject of ridicule, fear, hate and demonisation. There are some isolated insistences where minorities may be targetted but that is due to a dysfunctional state and criminal elements rather than anything else. You don't have the well off middle classes demonising a religion and all those that may practice it.
Articles on Islam *attract *the worst kind, so it's not representative. The majority of people do not care, unless they see Muslims rioting and killing Americans, which leaves a bad impression. You ignored the rest of my post but Muslims in America are far better off than religion minorities in Pakistan or SA, so obviously the US is doing something right in terms of freedom of religion. You're free to disagree, but I think you're being unreasonable here.
You actually hit the nail on the head. Whether is is 2+ or billion, the law applies equally. Equal protection under the law for free speech - however disgusting that speech may be - independent of # of people it offends.
Exactly. Freedom of speech exists precisely to protect the voice of the handful. It's for this reason that Muslims were able to build mosques and religious centers in the face of extreme adversity.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
No I didn't ignore the rest of your post. Ok there might be some excesses in muslim countries against the minorities due to a dysfunctional state, ignorance and criminality, but they are not demonised and ridiculed and hated like you do in the west. When an incident happens there, the top leadership gets involved, the media and the civil society gives them support. Here instead of getting support from the mainstream you would only find support from the fringes of society. Muslim bashing appeals to the mainstream here. The educated and the middle classes are the ones that indulge the most in hate here.
Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
Freedom of speech does not exist. Wether its about denying the holocaust, or kate middletons photos, censorship is evidently higly selective and freedom of speech evidently non existant.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
As soon as you hit their wallet, they obey.
Saudi Gazette - Google blocks anti-Islam film in Indonesia: govt
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
No I didn't ignore the rest of your post. Ok there might be some excesses in muslim countries against the minorities due to a dysfunctional state, ignorance and criminality, but they are not demonised and ridiculed and hated like you do in the west. When an incident happens there, the top leadership gets involved, the media and the civil society gives them support. Here instead of getting support from the mainstream you would only find support from the fringes of society. Muslim bashing appeals to the mainstream here. The educated and the middle classes are the ones that indulge the most in hate here.
It is the fringe right wing extremists that engage in such bashing. At least That has been my observation.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
No I didn't ignore the rest of your post. Ok there might be some excesses in muslim countries against the minorities due to a dysfunctional state, ignorance and criminality, but they are not demonised and ridiculed and hated like you do in the west. When an incident happens there, the top leadership gets involved, the media and the civil society gives them support. Here instead of getting support from the mainstream you would only find support from the fringes of society. Muslim bashing appeals to the mainstream here. The educated and the middle classes are the ones that indulge the most in hate here.
Says the guy living in utopia. Have you been an ahmadi in Pakistan? We are demonised, ridiculed, hated, denied our rights, persecuted by the state at the behest of the mainstream, our mosques are demolished, our graves are vandalized along with a thousand other abuses. Your top leadership or the media doesn't give a sh*t.
In Pakistan, mullahs can lead a mob that results in innocents being killed and no one will ever be prosecuted. Try doing that in the US. You need to make a distinction between nutjobs saying idiotic things and actually doing you harm. In Pakistan, the government can't protect you against either. In the west, governements won't stop people from saying stuff to you but would be very hard on them if they tried to harm you physically or destroyed your property.
I'm sorry but I can't take anyone seriously who thinks so-called muslim countries are better at protecting anybody, much less a minority, than western countries.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
I agree with some of your points because as I mentioned the state is dysfunctional and criminal elements take advantage of that.
Currently there is no persecution of the Ahmadis. In fact minorities like Ahmadis, Shias and Urdu speakers hold disproportionately the top positions in Pakistan. They are living the good life in Pakistan. A few may have been persecuted in the past but the majority just took advantage of the situation to claim asylum in the west, but are in fact economic migrants.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
No I didn't ignore the rest of your post. Ok there might be some excesses in muslim countries against the minorities due to a dysfunctional state, ignorance and criminality, but they are not demonised and ridiculed and hated like you do in the west. When an incident happens there, the top leadership gets involved, the media and the civil society gives them support. Here instead of getting support from the mainstream you would only find support from the fringes of society. Muslim bashing appeals to the mainstream here. The educated and the middle classes are the ones that indulge the most in hate here.
You must be living in different world then we all do. because i see that not only minorities are prosecuted by the people and state in islamic world but they are also forced to leave their homeland.
"minorities" (read "kafirs" ) are decreasing in islamic countries including your own. they would be more than happy to be made fun of then to leave their own rightful land.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
I guess I must be living in a different world than you do. Why where are you being prosecuted or seeing persecution?
Can you tell me who is being persecuted in Pakistan at the moment by the state? or even the people for that matter? and is being forced to leave the country.
Even if some excesses are happening in the Islamic countries does that make it ok to have them here in the west? Is that what you are saying?
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
I guess I must be living in a different world than you do. Why where are you being prosecuted or seeing persecution?
Can you tell me who is being persecuted in Pakistan at the moment by the state? or even the people for that matter? and is being forced to leave the country.
Even if some excesses are happening in the Islamic countries does that make it ok to have them here in the west? Is that what you are saying?
Ahmadis are so insignificant for you that you wont remember them? thats one example
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
Ahmadis are so insignificant for you that you wont remember them? thats one example
I have already answered that issue of Ahmadis in post 89 above. If you need any more clarification then I would be happy to oblige.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
You actually hit the nail on the head. Whether is is 2+ or billion, the law applies equally. Equal protection under the law for free speech - however disgusting that speech may be - independent of # of people it offends.
These blurbs and cliches about free speech are being thrown about like this is news to us. We know. And it's absurd. That's the point.
What Muslims don't get is how entrenched, and dogmatically true this is held by Americans. Most Americans won't see the absurdity.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
When you attack black people, They call it "Racism", When you attack Jewish people, They call it "Anti-semetism", When you attack Women, They call it "Gender discrimination", When you attack Homosexuality, They call it "Intolerance", When you attack your Country, They call it "Terrorism", When you attack a Religious sect, they call it "Hate speech", But when They attack at the dignity of our Beloved Prophet MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H) They call it " Freedom of Expression " Height of Hypocrisy
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
I have already answered that issue of Ahmadis in post 89 above. If you need any more clarification then I would be happy to oblige.
I am not a representative of ahamadis asking for justifications. you asked me to give you an example and i gave you one. i know you have nothing to say cuz you know you are wrong.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
I guess I must be living in a different world than you do. Why where are you being prosecuted or seeing persecution?
Can you tell me who is being persecuted in Pakistan at the moment by the state? or even the people for that matter? and is being forced to leave the country.
Even if some excesses are happening in the Islamic countries does that make it ok to have them here in the west? Is that what you are saying?
The case of the Christian lady who drank water from a well and is under arrest comes to mind as an example
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
These blurbs and cliches about free speech are being thrown about like this is news to us. We know. And it's absurd. That's the point.
What Muslims don't get is how entrenched, and dogmatically true this is held by Americans. Most Americans won't see the absurdity.
As a human being I don't see the absurdity in the concept of equal protection under the law. It may be just a clinched for some.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
As a human being I don't see the absurdity in the concept of equal protection under the law. It may be just a clinched for some.
The implicaiton being that people who don't think the way you do are non-human?
And free speech is quite the same as equal protection under the law.
Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.
I am not a representative of ahamadis asking for justifications. you asked me to give you an example and i gave you one. i know you have nothing to say cuz you know you are wrong.
Lol don't make me laugh! I have nothing to say because I know I am wrong? I had already replied on the same subject when it was bought up an Ahmadi, and when you bought up the subject again I refered you to my earlier response.
So how did you conclude that I had nothing to say and I knew I was wrong when I had directed you to my earlier reply? I just hope that the majority of muslims have slightly better reasoning abilities otherwise we are doomed.