Freedom of expression and entertainment

I was watching a debate on TV, two of the participants were Muslim or at least one them was, not sure about the other, he was from Iran though. Khair and the third participant was female and Danish.

The Iranian guy was supporting freedom of expression without any limits, whatsoever, but he wouldn’t make fun of holocaust. But he did not see any reason to not making fun of a prophet marrying a 9 year old child, or quranic verses painted on naked bodies. The other Muslim insisted that you set a limit, he would not approve of insulting holy verses from Quran or other holy books, but making fun of fundamentalists was ok. The lady too advocated freedom of expression without limits, however she would not comment holocaust in insulting manner nor would she approve of ppl stamping on the Danish flag to make a point.

Now I’m a bit confused, I didn’t see conclusion of the debate as they sounded a bit to ridiculous to me. So should there be selective freedom of expression, none at all or everything should be allowed? What’s the difference between spitting on a flag, or burning it compared to spitting on holy verses? This is an honest question, I failed to see the logic, although they explained with examples a few times.

Oh and if you for some reason were not able to kill the offender, how would you deal with offense as a Muslim?

It is a very fine line that seperates freedom of speech, [Protected in US under the First Amendment], libel and deliberate provocation.

Essentially, I believe there is no inherent difference between cursing, spitting, mutilating a flag and offering intentionally aggravating opinions about Islamic figureheads.

The catch here is the term, intentially provocative. You can talk about it from a historical standpoint, but under most casses you will find yourself collared by, either an anti-flagrancy law, or libel.

A relevant point concerning a recent Hate crime legislation came up, here.

"Your right to swing your fist stops where my nose starts"

^ thats exatly what i was going to say…

But how can we explain this :confused:

I have not seen someone burning my country flag. I will be deeply offended. :frowning:

I think freedom of expression should be in civilized manner, If someone is criticising religious figures, in adult like manner I wont have a problem. But if someone mocks them and starts making fun, then he/she is crossing his/her limits. No matter if it is Holocaust or Quranic verses.

And if any govt can act opon the complaints of jew, then they should do the same with muslims. Otherwise it is double standard :nook:

how can u hurt someone's feelings and call it entertainment????

its funny how these ppl will advocate even animals' rights but r least considerate of fellow human beings....

perhaps they'd change their view on freedom of expression if jesus was portrayed as a gangster or a rapist in a movie (naoozubillah)....
or if the person's own parents or loved ones were laughed at....
i am sure they wont find it entertaining....

No. X and Ranjhan, welcome to GS :)

The claim often made by intellectuals is that, intentional provocation, provokes you to re-think everything you're sensitive about, be that religion or nation etc. My question is do we even want to re-think anything? Do we feel secure enough to challenge new ideas and theories? I was reading Bhulle Shah, and was amazed by the stuff he got away with, there's this sher by him in which he says something like, Allah swt shows him self in the form of ram, ganesh I think and sometimes as Haji (Muhammed pbuh). That too is a form of entertainment. So do we have limits of provocation, or some are allowed to provoke us while other's aren't?

Ranjhan, that line is too easy, and not very applicable in everyday entertainment life. Aren't you limiting someone's creative rights by having a nose a little too long? (This was said by the Iranian guy btw)

Code, stand-up comedians are normally making fun of others :)

Army, ppl in this business usually have pretty tick skin, so comments on Jesus or mom dad are probably fine by them. Thing is they're not getting personal, or so they think, so when you go down to mommy daddy comments, you only make a joke of your self. I've noticed that majority of Muslim on this board as well, get very personal if someone doesn't agree with them. You can not shut up ppl by killing them or by passing, what you may think are, smart comments on them. Maybe its about time you try a different approach.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sabah: *
What's the difference between spitting on a flag, or burning it compared to spitting on holy verses? This is an honest question, I failed to see the logic, although they explained with examples a few times.

[/QUOTE]

Well the thing is Islam is not about tribes. Its the concept of Ummah the greater Unity. Just like in 1947, we brought in different tribes and different people under one flag. Pushtoons, the Makraanis, the Balauchs, the Urdu Speaking, the Sindhis and the Punjabis we all united under the one Kalmaa, There is no God but God. Why cant we take that to the next level and work towards the Greater Unity of Muslims.

Hence spitting on the Holy Verses, is much much greater Sin than spitting on the Flag.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sabah: *
The claim often made by intellectuals is that, intentional provocation, provokes you to re-think everything you're sensitive about, be that religion or nation etc. My question is do we even want to re-think anything? Do we feel secure enough to challenge new ideas and theories? I was reading Bhulle Shah, and was amazed by the stuff he got away with, there's this sher by him in which he says something like, Allah swt shows him self in the form of ram, ganesh I think and sometimes as Haji (Muhammed pbuh). That too is a form of entertainment. So do we have limits of provocation, or some are allowed to provoke us while other's aren't?
[/QUOTE]

We are supposed to provoke new ideas and think. Thats what our religion basically teaches us about. But the thing is that there are certain limits.

You can take the example of a horse thats tied to a pole with a 100 m rope. He can go 100 m away from the pole, but the 101 m is out of his range. He can go where ever he wants in that circle of 100m radius, and sit and run and do what ever he wants, but the 101 m mark will never come. The same is the case with Muslim. Allah has placed some restrictions on us which we must not transgress. Be it laughing or entertainment. Whats wrong is wrong.

Regarding Bulleh Shah, i have not read that txt of his where he mentions that, so i dont know anything about it. But Wahadat al Wujood is a basic sufi belief that God is integrated into the Universe and he does not exist elsewhere. This is completely shirk and totally outside the realms of Islam.

sabah,

Thanks.

People have an inherent right to offer their opinion within certain restrictions. We cannot ban criticism of major religions and their icons if we hope to promote free-speech. What we can do, and need to do is to set up barriers and limits seperating hate speech from legitimate criticism. The barriers, of course, aren't unconditional, occasions will arise when you'll to judge matters on case by case bases. In theory this sounds pretty good, but in praticse, the problem of law-makers is where exactly to draw the line.

For example, discussion of sensitive topics like the recent alleged peadophilia accusitions on Holy Prophet, should they be discussed on a state-run/public, officially non-committal Channel? If you ban them you'll get people protresting abuse of rights granted by the First Ammendment [or the British equivalent of it, if any], in any case you are bound to get hoardes of people who'll be highly offended.

In fact, you cannot reasonably expect such a topic to be discussed in any vein, however neutral without wide-spread public outrage. The very concept of, well, such a blasphemy is ludicrous for Muslims.
And yet, should you, due to the fear of mass protrest, set up laws banning public discussion of such unsavoury topics?

In this case, and other cases like this, the historical background has been so muddled and public so opinionated that however objective your intentions, you'll automatically be accused of flagrancy and suddenly find your life in jeopardy.

This is a sticky situation for any government which considers itself objective and secular, you'll either have the human-right activists yapping at your heals or Muslim/religious leaders billowing in your ears, and possibly more.

So, really, it is the question of seperating chaff from the grain, only in this world of ours where political correctness and equality are consider before everything else, you are buggered either way.

I am afraid, ultimately state priorities will win over, the rod is too thin and the weight too heavy to fiddle for too long a time. That is why you often see governments applying multiple standards, to ballance things out.

And currently, state priorities lie in palacating the Muslims.

As for Bulleh Shah, well I haven't studied him so I cannot offer my personal opinion/experience, but going by what you have posted [and assuming it isn't satire or mystic shikwa of some sort] I am surprised he wasn't strung up like a rotten ham in his day and age for this.

Sabah posted,

[QUOTE]
The claim often made by intellectuals is that, intentional provocation, provokes you to re-think everything you're sensitive about, be that religion or nation etc.
[/QUOTE]

This may be so on a hypothetical level, * but chances of this actually happening today are marginally better then a snowball's chance in hell.*

i agree...