Quoted in daily “Pakistan” (8 September 2002) Justice (Retd) Javid Iqbal said that Pakistan was caught between two extreme points of view: one was secularism and other fundamentalism, while Pakistan was neither a democratic nor a welfare state. He said some people interpreted the Quaid’s speech at the Constituent Assembly as secular, but that was according to Islam. He said four personalities stood behind Pakistan ideologically: Jamaluddin Afghani, Sir Syed, Allama Iqbal and the Quaid, but all four of them were declared “kafir” in their lifetimes.
I think anyone that knew Jinnah would agree that he hoped for a Secular state. The facts are simple, the Quaid may have been a great leader, but he wasnt neccesarily a great Muslims.
And here we go againg. I must say the empty rhetoric and blatant biases is what i hate about this site. People are so entrenched in their views they cant see the tunnel let alone the light at the end of it.
The Quaid was a muslim. You nor I have the right to say who is a good muslim. That is for Allah to judge. Not for us mere mortals. I can say you are a horrible muslim but does that make me right? No. Like wise whatever people say changes little.
Once upon a time Lahori i bet you are quoting the very people you hate -who called all 4 Kafirs. The Islamic groups were against Pakistan. That automatically makes them traitors and their views unadmissable to the sane individual. But honestly how can you quote the men you despise in this thread and yet insult and ridicule them in another?
The Quaid was a muslim. You nor I have the right to say who is a good muslim. That is for Allah to judge. Not for us mere mortals. I can say you are a horrible muslim but does that make me right? No. Like wise whatever people say changes little.
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I agree with CM that we do not have any right to be a judge on anybody's religious character. It's good only for hate to grow and the need of the hour requires us to avoid at every cost.
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*Originally posted by CM: *
And here we go againg. I must say the empty rhetoric and blatant biases is what i hate about this site. People are so entrenched in their views they cant see the tunnel let alone the light at the end of it.
The Quaid was a muslim. You nor I have the right to say who is a good muslim. That is for Allah to judge. Not for us mere mortals. I can say you are a horrible muslim but does that make me right? No. Like wise whatever people say changes little.
Once upon a time Lahori i bet you are quoting the very people you hate -who called all 4 Kafirs. The Islamic groups were against Pakistan. That automatically makes them traitors and their views unadmissable to the sane individual. But honestly how can you quote the men you despise in this thread and yet insult and ridicule them in another?
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Exactly, no one has the right to call another Muslim as being good or bad... There are even some people on this forum belonging to a particular Islamic group that continue to do that, and they have (even though they would not admit it) said it for our Quiad. The reason is not because they really care if the Qauid was a good muslim or not, they merely oppose his idea of the creation of Pakistan, and the way he visioned it, which was totally opposite to what they believed. The same goes for Sir Syed, he was termed as a kafir, or a modernistic mollah by people who believed he was rooting out Islam, and how wrong they were. His idea led to the creation of the biggest Islamic nation on this world.
CM: I have been called a kafir so many times on this site that is not even funny anymore. Please read my comments that go along with the post. I completely agree with you. I was trying to show the shallowness of the people who start judging muslims and start calling them Kafirs at the drop of a pin.
Well if you go by what "people" say, you are pretty dumb. Who cares what people call you? Do you owe them anything? Does it matter what someone across the net thinks of you? No.
You are not a kafir as i have no right to judge. Unless you are Ahmadi. I however do see you as a Pakistani who rather give up the love for his homeland and birth place for an adopted land where you are considered a second class citizen if you tell them you are pakistani. That is your choice.
Religion i have no right to judge. Character and personality are fair game in my eyes.
Again what you say is correct, and I agree with you. I would not be hanging around if I really cared what someone across the net thought of me. I use the feedback to calibrate my own views of the world.
However, I was born in USA. I guess I have never felt that I have been treated like a second class citizen. I have grown up hearing from my parents, and their friends (especially in their unguarded and honest moments) how they would have been "nobodys", servants, treated like dirt, etc. had they stayed in Pakistan. Apparently we came from a poor to a very poor background in Pakistan. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard my father thank Allah that he was lucky enough to come to USA. I guess I have been lucky so far that I have never been treated like a second class citizen. I have been to Pakistan couple of times, and since a lot of my relatives are those who live in "bastis" and not in big mansions, I can tell you that I have see with my own two eyes how second class citizens are treated. I was absolutely shocked to see on my first trip how servants are expected to serve and stand humbly while the big wigs eat their meals, and then they are abused and cursed on the slightest pretext. Just because my cousin was employed as a servant, the lady of the house felt it natural that I could be treated like a servant too. I assure you that I have not come close to getting that type of treatment ever here ever. I have been to multimillion dollar homes and the people living there still were constrained to treat me like a "human being" and not as my cousin said "worse than a diseased dog".
And frankly when I see the policies that the Govts. of Pakistan implemented and how they were encouraging Jihadis the world over ( see the statements of the retired Generals Hamid Gul and Aslam Baig) that I posted in a separate thread, I am surprised that Pakistanis were not treated like "criminals" and finger printed all over europe, russia, america, canada a whole lot earlier.
