FOR PAKISTANI GUPPIES

have we achieved freedom?
The sacrifices which gave us pakistan, have they been fulfilled?
Are we “free”?
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for 55 years we been fighting india, three wars…
resulting in NOTHING.
constant blame game…solution= NOTHING
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why don’t we have problems with indians outside of india-pakistan?
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Our own government has ruined us…
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We copycat other countries… our women adopting to their fashion…their way of style…
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we spent days and nights watching movies from india
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We are not safe in our own country…
Raat ko ghar sa nikalta hoa dar lagta hai karachi mein?
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we dont have jobs…and the ones that do… never actually do their work
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most of our population is illiterate
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What are we proud of?
Having an army?
Having nuclear bombs?
what else do we have?
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half the money spent on bombs could have made schools… could have given food to the hungry…

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WERE KILLING OUR OWN PEOPLE
WERE DESTROYING OURSELVES
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we make food… sell to other countries… so we can make more nuclear bombs? make more army? and feed the bellies of the rich?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/disgust.gif

Freedom's Dawn
By Faiz Ahmed Faiz

This daybreak, pockmarked-
this morning, night-bitten.

Surely it is not the morning we'd longed for
in whose eager quest all comrades
had set out, hoping that somewhere
in the wilderness of the - sky
would appear the ultimate destination of stars.
Somewhere the wave of the slow night will meet the shore
and somewhere will anchor the boat of the heart's grief.

As our friends set out on the mysterious highways
of young blood, how many hands caught them by the sleeve.
From the dreamlands of beauty's pleasure-houses
kept beckoning, to them, impatiently, seductive arms and bodies.
But we yearned only for the morning's face,
even though within easy reach was the hem of the radiant beauties.
Delicate was our longing and faint our sense of exhaustion.

It's heard that light and darkness have parted-
also, that there's now union between quest and goal
that the lot of the afflicted is now changed

that granted is the pleasure of union
and banished is the torment of separation.

Fire in the bosom, longing in the eyes, and the heart-burn-
nothing can solve the problem of separation.
Where did the sweet breeze come from and where did it vanish-
the street lamp has no news yet.
Even the night's heaviness is just the same;
still the moment of salvation has not arrived

for the heart and the eye.
So let's press on as the destination is still far away.

^ i am talking about the majority... i dont watch indian movies either
and don't invovle america into this...
i dont like it here either
but i am talking about Pakistan

[quote]
Originally posted by tipz:
^ i am talking about the majority... i dont watch indian movies either
and don't invovle america into this...
i dont like it here either
but i am talking about Pakistan

Sit back and relax!

[/quote]

To your question that are we free, my responce is definitely big YES. No doubt we still have a long way to go, but whatever freedom we have today in Pakistan, the Muslims in India still dont have that kinda freedom . Whatever you say, we do have a free media, you do get to read news reports against the goverment now and then, specially in the Urdu newspapers.
To answer your second question, that why are we fighting with the Indians, my friend, in reality its the other way around. It’s the Indians who are at war with us. And that was one of the reasons president Musharraf told Indians in his famous speech to back-off.
My reply to your third question is that
" Grow up ". Who are we to tell who should wear what. To your fourth question, speak for yourself, I dont watch Indian movies at all- complete ban. Have’nt seen one since 1992.
On Your fifth point, I do agree with you, that we need to make our country more secure so that these radicals cannot kill innocent people. I wish in this regard the Pakistani goverment can take some dictation from the French, Spanish, and other countries who have dealt with the terrorism in the past. Other than that, Karachi is busy and a growing cosmopoliton city. I think the government is trying to do everything in its power to make everything right, but its just going to take some time.
You are right that our youth has no bright future, there are no jobs, however, what you have to keep in mind, is that the whole world is in recession. Even is the U.S., I personally know alot of people who are jobless, and have been in the same state for a while. once the economy starts picking up arounf the world, there will be more jobs for our Pakistani youth.
Absolutely agree with you, that the masses are uneducated, but if you have been following the government closely, they have been trying to spread the idea of virtual university, so that people can have access to education and have better future.
To your question that why do we need bombs and huge defence budget. Its sad to say, but the reality is that if we did’nt have these bombs and a big armed force, we would be treated like another Palestine( in simple words with no respect ). I know there is corruption in the army, but everything is going to be okay in a matter of couple of years, if Musharraf is allowed to stay in power and to continue his reforms. What I have been reading and listening, is that Pakistan has improved alot compared to the last decade when our democratic govenment was in control.
My friend, dont loose HOPE, because its simply HARAM…

[This message has been edited by ZulfiOKC (edited August 11, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by ZulfiOKC (edited August 11, 2002).]

No doubt Pakistan needs a strong army but what good is a strong defence when there is nothing left to protect. Pakistan is a great place and nothing in this world will change that and I for one take great pride in being a Pakistani. But we have to realize that we will be left far behind if we dont make education our number 1 priority. The key to India's success and respect is not Nuclear Weapons, its the economy. We should be competing with India on the international market and not by arming idiots with weapons, who by the way, as the last few months have shown, return the favor by attacking us. Would you rather live in a country which prided itself on having nuclear weapons, where there is rampant poverty, corruption, social injustice and only 10% to 15% of the population is educated ?. Or would you live in a country which took pride in providing security and employment and education and healthcare, where every child can go to school rather then working 14 hours a day, and where you and I can both have our say without starting an ethnic or political war. It might sound like a perfect world but I would rather be an optimist then a mourning pessimist.

By the way as for the fashion people adopt thats their business. It seems a bit trivial to say the least that we should be discussing what people wear when greater challanges face Pakistan.

ZulfiOKC... you are right the world is in a recession...
but the people aren't any poorer than they were when the market was at its best...
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I know a lot of people have been laid off in america... but pakistan never actually had a good job market... and the people who were laid off... still have some sort of way of making money... something to full they belly every nigh...
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and for the fashion... people are losing their own culture... i saw people do many things, and on August 14th, the dust off their kameez shalwar, put a pakistan zindabad pin on their chest and party...
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If i go out of the house right now... there a millions of people willing to teach me about english and their culture... but who is teaching them about ours... why should we give up what we have and follow what someone else does?

[This message has been edited by tipz (edited August 11, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by the_real_pakistani:
By the way as for the fashion people adopt thats their business. It seems a bit trivial to say the least that we should be discussing what people wear when greater challanges face Pakistan.
[/quote]

maybe i should have phrased that in other words...
what i meant was... pakistnais are adopting to their culture...there way of life...

Well, Im Ahmedi, and a proud Pakistani.. Contradiction?! MAYBE...But Im just loyal, its in my blood.

[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
Well, Im Ahmedi, and a proud Pakistani.. Contradiction?! MAYBE...But Im just loyal, its in my blood.
[/quote]

Their is nothing to be proud to be a loyalist. Anyone can be one. It is not an achievement.

And we are not free, we were never free. Our previous rulers were the British, our new rulers are the Army generals.

[quote]
Originally posted by Maula Baksh:
** Their is nothing to be proud to be a loyalist. Anyone can be one. It is not an achievement.

And we are not free, we were never free. Our previous rulers were the British, our new rulers are the Army generals.**
[/quote]

Who cares, atleast they are our army generals. I dont have any good reason to be a proud Pakistani, I just am... Pakistan can be the worst country in the world, and I would still support Pakistan.. Like I said, its in my blood, literally (im form Chakwal).
Being loyal is not easy, read how Ahmedis are humiliated and discriminated against, and you would relize how hard it is. We are loyal to the dream that was Pakistan, and will once become Pakistan. I will always be loyal, as difficult as that is. I could sit here and bitch all day about how bad Pakistan is, but I dont do that. Fir me the glass is half full, and no matter what, there is alwys hope for a better future.. That why I am loyal and proud. Your welcome to be a pesamist, but dont expect that from me.
Also, who is this "we" you refer to? Do you mean to imply that you are a Pakistani. Thats fine with me, but in other posts you seem to be a Kashmiri nationalist protesting Pakistani "occupation" of your country!?!
Clarification is in order...

[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited August 11, 2002).]

Loyal
Ya ofcouse i am royal...i love pakistan either ways....good or bad
but to think about what were going through...
that was all i was saying
^ and as ZulfiOKC said... hope... ofcouse i have hope... i hope for a better future for paksitan... and with the kind of government mushy is running... it would be sooner than anyone expected

[quote]
Originally posted by tipz:
** maybe i should have phrased that in other words...
what i meant was... pakistnais are adopting to their culture...there way of life...**
[/quote]

True enough, I agree Pakistanis are adopting other cultures.

[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
** Who cares, atleast they are our army generals. I dont have any good reason to be a proud Pakistani, I just am... Pakistan can be the worst country in the world, and I would still support Pakistan.. Like I said, its in my blood, literally (im form Chakwal).
Being loyal is not easy, read how Ahmedis are humiliated and discriminated against, and you would relize how hard it is. We are loyal to the dream that was Pakistan, and will once become Pakistan. I will always be loyal, as difficult as that is. I could sit here and bitch all day about how bad Pakistan is, but I dont do that. Fir me the glass is half full, and no matter what, there is alwys hope for a better future.. That why I am loyal and proud. Your welcome to be a pesamist, but dont expect that from me.
Also, who is this "we" you refer to? Do you mean to imply that you are a Pakistani. Thats fine with me, but in other posts you seem to be a Kashmiri nationalist protesting Pakistani "occupation" of your country!?!
Clarification is in order...

[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited August 11, 2002).]**
[/quote]

I am not a big fans of the generals. I dont think they have any business running the country. Unless they give up their unforms and become politicians. But read this article by Ayaz Amir in the Dawn:

Creative anarchy Pakistani style

By Ayaz Amir

When we shed tears over our history - and let's not forget we remain among the world's most accomplished mourners - many of us forget how far we have come in many things. The openness of the press and even the gradual opening up of that ancient concubine, state television, is taken for granted nowadays. This too in a military government. But only a few years ago this would have been unthinkable.

True, General Musharraf stretches a point when he says he is a military man who rules democratically. Even so, it is hard not to admit that compared to what we've had in the past this has been a tolerant dispensation.

Perhaps the tolerance owes less to conscious design than to domestic exigency and international pressure. Perhaps this is globalization at work, a world where the dissemination of information is harder to control. So what? In everyday life facts are more important than their underlying causes.

Forget the press, the political parties too over the last three years have been free to do as they please except hold rallies in the open. If they have sat on their butts and not organized themselves properly who is to blame? The military government may have had dubious motives in making the political parties go through the farce of internal elections. But at least it made them do something they would never have done on their own.

Horace Walpole said he would love England if it were not for the people in it. Pakistani democracy can trigger much the same emotion. I am all for democracy but its practitioners put me off. Ten minutes in their company and I find myself turning into a rabid Jacobin.

General Musharraf's greatest service to Pakistan has been to demystify the military. The armed forces still sit on the bulk of national resources but their holy cow status which made them immune from criticism has come to an end. Thanks to the army being pushed into doing things it had no business touching, the halo round its head has gone.

The intelligence agencies also stand demystified. During the Zia years the words ISI and MI were spoken in hushed tones. Not any more. The ISI and MI continue to play their political games, a subject on which Mian Azhar and Chaudry Shujaat of the Q League are more qualified to speak. But the old dread of these agencies has disappeared. The iron curtain around them has fallen.

The young of today are scarcely aware of the repressive atmosphere of the Zia regime. For open dissent a harsh price had to be paid which many people, to their lasting honour, did. But it's a measure of the distance we have travelled that it all seems such a long time ago.

I think sufficient credit has not been given to Gen Musharraf or the army for this transformation. Which doesn't mean Gen Musharraf hasn't done silly or unnecessary things. Only that all said and done he has presided over an easy regime.

The argument often trotted out by politicos and journalists that the tolerance of the regime is dictated by international necessity is at best half true. In a country where ordinary thanedars can get away with the most blatant excesses, the army's secret agencies, whose reach and power should not be underestimated, can get away with a great deal more. If they have desisted from doing so, it is another sign that our political culture is improving.

Which is not to say we should close our eyes to the follies or political excesses of the present order. On the frozen body of the 1973 Constitution open-heart surgery is being performed. This is a fact. But the new openness in which criticizing the military government is no longer considered an act of heresy is also a fact. While drawing up a balance sheet of the present both these facts should be kept in mind.

The live political discussion on TV is something no government, military or political, ever risked. It has become a regular feature these days, which means another taboo has been broken. Democracy best evolves not merely through strictures or governmental commandments but through an accumulation of such small things, quite often unintended or inadvertent.

No Pakistani leader has risked being interviewed live on television. Granted that Musharraf's TV interviewers have always been carefully chosen for their patriotic credentials. And on one or two occasions, I suspect, for their looks which of course bespeaks an aesthetic approach to such things. But the fact remains that in a live interview, however carefully managed, anything can go wrong. If Musharraf has taken the risk, he has set a precedent for others to follow.

It is another matter that the generalissimo is often forgetful of Polonius's advice about brevity being the soul of wit. He has a great facility for the long answer, at times the excruciatingly long answer. Polonius was a bore but had some useful advice for his son. Perhaps a reading of his famous speech could be arranged in the presidency.

Another thing to be celebrated is the demise of the CSP or DMG, surely not consciously willed by anyone in general headquarters but an inadvertent consequence of General Naqvi's devolution plan. In its heyday the old civil service had its strengths and uses but by the time Naqvi's cruel axe fell on it, it was of no use to man or beast. The passing of the village chowkidar is still mourned among sections of the rural populace. The demise of the commissioner and deputy commissioner, and the meltdown of the once-vaunted steel-frame of the empire, has gone unnoticed and unwept.

The ISI and MI are justly blamed for installing and dislodging civilian prime ministers in the nineties. What is often forgotten is that as much to blame are the mandarins of the civil service surrounding those two princes of presidential ineptitude, Ghulam Ishaq Khan and Farooq Leghari. Their role was as dark and sinister as that of any interfering general. The mandarinate had tempted fate for a long time. Who could have foreseen that its nemesis would come stalking in the shape of Gen Naqvi?

Not that bureaucratic incompetence has been replaced by military efficiency. To the sum of national inefficiency the army is making its own distinctive contribution. What's more, by turning the district nazims into ready instruments of its ambition, the government has already managed to give devolution a bad name. But this is how progress takes place: one set of incompetents being replaced by another until something more solid and good emerges from the resulting chaos. "

So I will be first to admit that the generals have done atleast something right.