For Ahmedjee to Reply!!

Andhra · February 19, 2002, 1:47pm

DEar Ahmedjee,
Assalam Alaikum

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

Some time ago, you assured me regarding a thread I posted in GupShup, that there is more freedom of expression in GupShup than there is New Delhi.
Now that, that post got deleted, I am sure you will appreciate where we stand on this forum regarding Freedom Of Expresssion.
Anyway for your benefit and other Guppies I am giving the image again. Please give me your opinions and this time hurry before they delete the post

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

http://www.gupistan.com/gallery/1/Surrender3.jpg

confused · February 19, 2002, 1:48pm

THAT post where u put this picture AS reply to a PANGA-raising picture was deleted PERSONALLY by me .. dont bring freedom on this issue.. if members bring panga/future-pangaraising possibility type pics, mods will be deleting them without warnings..

thank u for bringing this up :)

ßäÐäLL Kä®® ghö®äÿ KÄ hämm ßhäï$ ghäLïß
Tämää$hÄ-ë-ÄhL-ë-GüP$HÜP ÐäïKhtä¥ häïñ

Andhra · February 19, 2002, 1:56pm

Confused,
I am not talking about the 'Panga' raising post named 'for Andhra' or something.
I am talking about the image I originally posted in a separate thread.
There was a discussion going on, Ahmedjee wanted to participate but couldn't find the thread.

Akif · February 19, 2002, 2:05pm

Andhra did you finally solve the homeless and hunger problems in Calcutta? You must have, which is why youve shifted your focus to such ‘important current affairs’ issues.

Really desperate for attention you are

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Andhra · February 19, 2002, 2:08pm

Akif, now now!!
DOn’t divert the topic. HOmelessness and hunger are everywhere, including Islamabad and Lahor, I am sure

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If you want to discuss that , I am ready to do so, starting with the Afghans camping on your own borders.
They are refugees in their own land.

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ahmadjee · February 19, 2002, 2:10pm

Andhra, I wrote the following & then started looking for the post and couldn't find it. But glad you posted it again! Here it goes ...

The pic signifies quiet a few things;

The people of East Pakistan were neglected by the West, intentionally or unintentionally. Even though their hue & cry were loud & justified, the Pakistan Army put a deaf eat to their woes & tried their best to suppress them! And in return the Bengali people got what they deserved & the Army what it.
This also highlights the mess that Mountbeten made with his hasty pull out after plundering the sub-continent for centuries. He should have listened to Soharwardi/Jinnah who suggested a partition into 3 than in 2 to begin with!
Last but not least, this image also signifies that** some **elements in the Indian Government, representative of its population, will always be anti-Pakistan. They will capitalize on each & every weakness or internal instability of their neighbour they possibly can get their hand on but on a public level profess the sermon that Pakistanis & Indian are essentially the same people.

Akif · February 19, 2002, 2:18pm

Perhaps you did not get the idea behind my message. It was to signify the increasing pettiness of your posts lately. Yes there is hunger and homelessness everywhere. But Im not the one posting messages with no motive other than spite and pettiness.

Whats there to discuss in this 30 year old issue? This was an easy burgulary for India, where they were able to capitalize on the ethnic issues, and geographical split in Pakistan, and squeezed a province 50 times smaller than itself. What you are trying to prove beyond that is beyond me…though I realize your objective was nothing other than to be seen on these boards

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And what do you have to say about the Afghan refugees? Is there a single word that you can say against Pakistan in relation to what we have done for the Afghan refugees? 4 million refugees have made Pakistan home at one time or another over the past 20 years.

Andhra · February 19, 2002, 3:07pm

Akif,
Reviewing the past is necessary at present to plan for the future.
For your information, somebody in Image Gallery posted an Image that says Pak Army is invincible or something. Essentially it says Pak Army is invincible. SO I posted this image to remind people

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AS for Afghan refugees, for one thing Afghans don’t like Pakistanis. Hamid Karzai told Pak and Iran to stop interfering, not India, Russia and US!!

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Another thing. You said..

Is there a single word that you can say against Pakistan in relation to what we have done for the Afghan refugees? 4 million refugees have made Pakistan home at one time or another over the past 20 years.<<

Yes there is more than a word to say about Afghan Refugees. The one thing you don’t do with Refugees is keep them refugees

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You are whining about 4 million Afghans. India had 10 million Bengalis as refugees at one point. WE sent every one of them back. Why Can’t Pakistan do the same. Iran sent back the Afghan refugees, why can’t Pak?
If you want to keep them and recruit Jehadis or some thing, it is your business.

Ahmedjee, you said..

The people of East Pakistan were neglected by the West, intentionally or unintentionally. Even though their hue & cry were loud & justified, the Pakistan Army put a deaf eat to their woes & tried their best to suppress them <<

Glad you are not blaming Indians for this

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This also highlights the mess that Mountbeten made with his hasty pull out after plundering the sub-continent for centuries. He should have listened to Soharwardi/Jinnah who suggested a partition into 3 than in 2 to begin with! <<

Well, blame the English again. So convenient.
Anyway, If the Bengali Muslims really didn’t want to join Pakistan, Jinnah and his party couldn’t have foreced them to do so right?
Again India is not to blame for this.

Last but not least, this image also signifies that some elements in the Indian Government, representative of its population, will always be anti-Pakistan. <<

I don’t think so. The reason India interfered was because Pakistan is a sorry country that persecuted it’s own citizens and forced 10 million of them to flee into India!!

They will capitalize on each & every weakness or internal instability of their neighbour they possibly can get their hand on but on a public level profess the sermon that Pakistanis & Indian are essentially the same people. <<

The people who say Indians and Pakistanis are essentially one pople are mainly Punjabi Refugees, who rose to prominence in independent India, like IK Gujral and Khuswant SIngh.
They do it because from their perspective it is the valid. THey did know a cosmopolitan Lahore that kinda lead the culture in the sub-continent for example.

For the rest of the Indians, well take a normal south Indian like me.
I see many similarities between Paks and Indians and feel sorry for partition and all the trouble between the countries, but I don’t feel we are ‘essentially the same people’. Pakistan is a foreign country as far as I am concerned.

confused · February 19, 2002, 3:34pm

Andhra: oki then .. no problemo .. :)

ßäÐäLL Kä®® ghö®äÿ KÄ hämm ßhäï$ ghäLïß
Tämää$hÄ-ë-ÄhL-ë-GüP$HÜP ÐäïKhtä¥ häïñ

Akif · February 19, 2002, 3:40pm

What a moronic statement to make. Did you expect Pakistan to expel refugees back to a country where they were not even assured of a single meal? Pakistan has taken care of those refugees, and will repatriate them only when there is something stable awaiting them in Afghanistan.

Rest of your post is nothing but a repeat of your past

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/crying.gif

performances. Enough pettiness really. If you want attention, there are other ways of attracting it.

Andhra · February 19, 2002, 3:59pm

What a moronic statement to make. Did you expect Pakistan to expel refugees back to a country where they were not even assured of a single meal? Pakistan has taken care of those refugees, and will repatriate them only when there is something stable awaiting them in Afghanistan. <<

Now, now don't get self-righteous Akif.
Iran had a million of them and Pakistan 3 million. The bottom line is Iran sent them back.
Other countries have taken their share including India, and they are absorbed. You don't find articles about dirty Arghan refugee camps infested with drug runners and criminals in India now do you?

Accept facts. Pakistan is either

1.A Helpless basket case of a state whcih can't take care of Refugees.

2.Wants their condition to perpetuate itself out of it's own motives.

To give Pakistan a break I don't think the second scenario is true. I think the Pakistani state is just incompotent.

You didn't answer my question anyway. If a poor country like India with all the poverty and hunger you were so ready to point out, could repatriate 10 million Bengali Muslims and absorb thousands of Afghan refugees, why can't Pakistan do the same?

ahmadjee · February 19, 2002, 4:01pm

Andhra,

According to your reasoning of war in 71, Pakistan has every right to go for an all out war in Afghanistan because there are too many refugees coming our side! No?

[quote]
Hamid Karzai told Pak and Iran to stop interfering, not India, Russia and US!!
[/quote]

Frist, you are fogetting the first Afghan war in which the same Afghan people kicked the butt of not only the Russians but the Indian influence too. Have you ever heard of the person called Najibullah?

Secondly, I guess you missed Karzai's land mark visit to Pakistan.

[quote]
Well, blame the English again. So convenient.
[/quote]

Meray Bhai, Jinnah and leagers were happy with the the federation plan for a joint sub-continent as per ascribed by the three-man cabnit of secratary of state Pathick-Lawrance devised in 1946! Nehru first agreed but then backed out, which resulted in Partition. Soharwardi met with Mountbeten and asked if the sub-continent is to be devided, then should be in three but asked a lot more than just the present day Bangladesh! Which didn't go over too well with Congress or with Mountbeaten.

It seems like you haven't really read any other history than the modern day Indian version. Anyway, you can think whatever you may please, meri balla say! :)

Akif · February 19, 2002, 4:03pm

What are you talking about?

How much does it cost to send people out of your country? You drove bengalis out of India because they didnt have any better a life while in India.
As for Pakistan, we had more refugees that we could economically support, yet we allowed them to stay, and allowed them to merge into the society and stay as citizens in many cases.

Now back to your pettiness, and baseless posts.

ahmadjee · February 19, 2002, 4:03pm

>>>Other countries have taken their share including India!

Andhra, I know there are a few Afghan refugees in India, but could you please share it with us all the exact numbers?

Thanks!

Andhra · February 19, 2002, 4:18pm

Ahmedjee,
I am getting my version of partition from Larry COllins and DOminique Lapierre, who got it from Mountbatten who actually did the partition among other sources.

However there is no point in telling you that, because you are by this time no doubt brainwashed that Mountbatten is against Pakistan.

According to English who participated, Jinnah was the reason the partition became inevitable.

Now, you said according to me, Pakistan should invade AFghanistan because of REfugees. Why? War is the last resort. Did Iran invade Afghanistan to send the refugees back?
THe truth may not be so romantic here. Pakistan as a sate is just helpless in the face of these refugees.

Akif…

How much does it cost to send people out of your country? You drove bengalis out of India because they didnt have any better a life while in India.<<

We didn’t drive them out. We gave them their country and sent them back

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As Indira Gandhi said in the Indian Parliament ’ Dhaka is the FRee Capital of a free country’. Sorry West Pakistan !!

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As for your comment about Bengalis not getting a ‘better life’ in India consider this.
Afghans who ended up in Iran definitely have a better life there. YEt Iran sent them back and they went back because it is their home.
The question is not ‘better life’. IT is becoming refugees and going back with another country’s help.

As for Pakistan, we had more refugees that we could economically support, yet we allowed them to stay, and allowed them to merge into the society and stay as citizens in many cases. <<

The ‘Merge’ doesn’t seem to be a happy ‘Merge’ is it?
Any Paki Newspaper you open, you will hear whining about Drugs and Kalashnikov Culture’ as a result of Afghan Crises.
Scratch an Afghan who managed to get out of Pakistan and you will hear how Pakistan stole American Aid meant for them

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Akif · February 19, 2002, 4:34pm

Refugees came to Pakistan on their own. They were not pulled in. And they will go back when they are assured of a better/normal life back. Its a simple concept that doesnt seem to be making sense to you. You continue to come up with utterly biased and self pleasing stuff to gain attention.

ahmadjee · February 19, 2002, 4:40pm

Yeah, its easy to conclude that I am brain washed and clean! :)

[quote]
I am getting my version of partition from Larry COllins and DOminique Lapierre, who got it from Mountbatten who actually did the partition among other sources.
[/quote]

Please do quote from those books! And include their ISBN numbers! I have read some of Larry but not the other dude. Would love to see what they have to say.

[quote]
War is the last resort
[/quote]

I don't know why India always takes the last resort! :)

Maybe you can shed some light on the 'highjacking' of the plane in 71 which in term suspended all Pakistani flights over India (like they did in the recent times). Which at that critical times dismanteled the communication between east & west Paksitan which was need. I could never get that incident straighten out nor the Indian intention behind it.

mufakkar · February 19, 2002, 4:58pm

I've had enough of this pettiness. Lets get a few facts straight:
First of all Andhra, the way your government conducted ops East Pakistan is very admirable indeed. The glorious Mukti Bahini who wanted to surrender after amnesty was granted by the government found headless bodies of 'refugees' flowing down from India,
(Ref: East Pakistan to Bangladesh by Saadullah Khan, who quotes BBC reports in this matter. Also reported by Brian Cloughley, Eric Margolis etc)

Prediction: Andhra will say all of these are unimportant or somehow on Pakistan's payroll right?

Secondly you should talk about Afghan refugee camps as being filthy...I've seen how your citizens lead thier lives on the sidewalks of Calcutta...I've also read in the Hindustan times about numerous cases where Police supridentants and other bureaucrats set thier servants on fire for being five minutes late (I could be wrong on how late they were).
And while we are on the subject lets not forget the ritual burning of an Australian missionary and his 2 kids (One 5 and the other 9 years old) by a mob belonging to a certain religious group. The Missionary and his sons were sleeping in his jeep. This of course hapenned in 1999. Put a smiley on that why don't ya.

Andhra · February 19, 2002, 5:00pm

I will get back to you on Larry Collins & DOminique Lapierre. They are very famous co-authors. Surprised you didn’t hear of them.
Search for ‘Freedom At Midnight’.

I could never get that incident straighten out nor the Indian intention behind it.<<

Oh was a plane hijacked in 1971?
Toba, Toba!!

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ahmadjee · February 19, 2002, 5:07pm

Andhra,

There are many theories about any event of history, one has to read all the different perspective & make a personal opinion. Any one theory or perspective can not be taken as absolute.

I sure will read Freedom @ Midnight, I have been meaning to read it anyway.

[quote]
Oh was a plane hijacked in 1971?
[/quote]

I figured ... sigh