Months after the US gave us a final green signal and put the ball in our court regarding the decision to acquire the much desired old and new F-16s our own cabinet has given an approval for the purchase. Pakistan had been on the verge of getting the planes when the nation was struck by the devestation of the October earthquake due to which it was decided to delay the purchase and make sure funds were allocated for the best interests of the nation. Apparently the govt has been getting enough for rehab so there’s no need for reservations about the fighter purchase.
Now the govt is also considering deals about the other Chinese fighter F-10 too.
The F-16’s okayed include both, the already paid for older Block 50 A/Bs that are parked in a desert somewhere since the 80s and the new block 60 and + C/Ds.
The numbers are not confirmed yet. let’s see when they are actually acquired. Should happen soon!
the JF-17 from China will be flying in PAF later this year.
I hope the PAF organizes shows in a few big cities to allow the public to see the planes and their capabilities 1st hand.
^Yeah i think so too. With the JF coming in this year, F-16 block 60s available and an entire lobby supporting the Grippens, I'm not sure if there is any urgency to look for F10s at the moment. But i guess a deal now might mean about 5 yrs down the road perhaps...
By that time hopefully we would have fully replaced the ageing mirages and F-7s with JF-17s
which lobby is supporting the gripen? and do you think it will be suitable for PAF? what is the unit cost of a gripen?
How many lives of FC soldiers will be saved by these F-16's, JF-17's, and F-10's? How many landmines will be deactivated in Waziristan and Balochistan? How many people will get clean water, schools, and health centers because of this? We need to act within our limits and take whatever we can get from the US for free.
we need fighter planes and believe it or not a squadorn of these planes can save the lives of thousands of soldiers.
and what can we get for free from the US?
It's better to criticize then to live on false dreams. Unless we plan on bombing the Wazirs and Balochs from 30,000 ft, these planes will be useless for the battles Pakistan army is involved in.
US has given us $3 bn economic and military aid. We can get some second hand F-16's with this money and paint them for parades. It's not like going to war with India is an option for us. Such a war would be devastating and fruitless for both.
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It's better to criticize then to live on false dreams. Unless we plan on bombing the Wazirs and Balochs from 30,000 ft, these planes will be useless for the battles Pakistan army is involved in.
so you want to restrict the forces to a police force?
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US has given us $3 bn economic and military aid. We can get some second hand F-16's with this money and paint them for parades. It's not like going to war with India is an option for us. Such a war would be devastating and fruitless for both.
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you assume that every war with india will inevitably be nuclear and even it is how do youplan to deliver those weapons? we cannot rely on missiles alone
and all wars are devastating unless our leaders have the political insight of bismarck(which they dont)
best way to avoid war is to prepare for one
We have already built up enough of the military and that too at the expense of other institutions. We have not been able to win back Kashmir and never will. A war with India would end in either a stalemate or nuclear war. After nuclear deterrence, what's the point in buying expensive fighter jets?
The army is already busy fighting its own people and not doing that great a job due to lack of equipment and training. Do any of you even realize the senselessness of security forces dieing in Waziristan and Balochistan? This situation could be resolved peacefully, but even if not that, soldiers are just being sent as cannon fodder.
On the one hand we have pilots flying in a state of art fighter jet and on the other hand we have soldiers in shalwar kameez riding in a battered pickup truck. Obviously there is always going to be a difference between ground troops and airmen, but this is ridiculous!
The priorities of our military leaders' center around protecting Musharraf's motorcade, showing off shiny new planes, and prolonging military rule rather then providing their forces the necessary means to fight internal insurgencies. Becharo ko aik bullet proof jacket to dey do. Itna rehm to karlo unke liye jo tum logon kay liye mar rahay hai.
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We have already built up enough of the military and that too at the expense of other institutions. We have not been able to win back Kashmir and never will. A war with India would end in either a stalemate or nuclear war. After nuclear deterrence, what's the point in buying expensive fighter jets?
okay even if you rely on missiles for nuke deterrance alone
we still need fighters to protect the launchers (even mobile) other wise enemy strike planes will knock them out with the nukes inside them.
so the bomb alone does not guarentee effective delivery
military wastes a lot of money on extravangences of its officers and generals that is why we never haveenough money to buy fighters
we keep names of great sahaba for our weapons but never do the generals attempt to live like them
but that is a seperate discussion
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The army is already busy fighting its own people and not doing that great a job due to lack of equipment and training. Do any of you even realize the senselessness of security forces dieing in Waziristan and Balochistan? This situation could be resolved peacefully, but even if not that, soldiers are just being sent as cannon fodder.
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COIN operations are wasteful in termsof human lives, show me another example in history where a insurgency was controlled w/o heavy losses in men
From napoleons spanish ulcer to later conflicts like soviet afghanistan these wars are always brutal and senseless
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On the one hand we have pilots flying in a state of art fighter jet and on the other hand we have soldiers in shalwar kameez riding in a battered pickup truck. Obviously there is always going to be a difference between ground troops and airmen, but this is ridiculous!
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I agree that everyone should have a flak jacket but honestly I havent seen them without one, sometimes troops do not wear them despite being issued one.
I agree that the military should not be wasteful of people's money but there are other ways of controlling.
Protection hampers individual mobility. Most of the world’s armies, even NATO armies, do not provide their soldiers with the same amount of body armour as the US army does because they are not willing to sacrifice mobility for protection. Body armour makes it harder for soldiers to move their bodies due to added bulk; and especially in hotter climates body armour makes soldiers get exhausted faster due to the added weight they are carrying around.
Pakistan’s military thinking is simply aligned with most of the world that mobile soldiers are more important that protected soldiers.
Protection versus mobility is one of the oldest trade-offs in the world and nations have done it for centuries. In the crusades, crusader soldiers were much more heavily armoured than Muslim soldiers and thus more likely to win 1:1 fights. Muslim soldiers could march faster and fight longer, however, due to being less weighed down by armour.
In the 17 and 18th centuries, European armies began providing less and less armour, because bulletproof steel plate was so heavy that offering soldiers maximum protection would make them less effective at fighting that lighter-armoured, more mobile rivals.
^ i understand that and you are right......but since khekeshan was thinking that we neglect to provide even basics to our ground troops yet lavishly equip our airforce ....that is why i mentioned it
We tried the peaceful option in Waziristan. Remember the deal with Naik Mohammed? All the fighting would stop, the tribesmen would register all foreigners living in Waziristan. That didn’t work out too well did it? The tribes didn’t give up their foreigners. When troops tried to attack the foreigners, the tribes defended the foreigners.
Balochistan. There is a peaceful way the local rebels can use. Take part in politics, and take the slow and steady route towards change. Troops are in Balochistan to protect gas installations. They would not be needed if local rebels would cease attacking gas installations. There’s your peaceful resolution.
Those “soldiers in shalwar kameez” are wearing that because for over a century, including under british command, shalwaar kameez was recognised as being the most comfortable battle dress for native paramilitary soldiers operating for extended periods in that environment. It’s lightweight and airy. Additionally, neither they nor their “battered pickups” are part of the Pakistan Army.
They are paramilitary forces under the command and budget of the Interior Ministry. Your point about “there is always going to be a difference between ground troops and airmen, but this is ridiculous” simply does not hold true, because their is little difference between the quality of the equipment that the Army has, and that of the Air Force and Navy.
The Interior Ministry receives considerably less funding than either the Army of the Air Force, because the Interior Ministry is responsible for securing Pakistan against domestic hostile threats. These domestic threats are much less dangerous than foreign military threats are, and so their equipment is second-grade.
During selected operations in Waziristan when additional strength is needed, the Interior Ministry paramilitaries will coordinate with the professional troops of the Army. For most of the patrolling, the Army does not get involved. Hence the paramilitaries in their shalwar kameezes and pickup trucks.
You’ll recognise army forces in news photos from Waziristan because they are in military uniforms rather than shalwar kameez; and they move around in military trucks rather than civilian batter pickups.
Flak jackets aren’t basics. The are luxuries. Historically, flak jackets have actually been despised by many soldiers who thought it was more dangerous to wear them and then be unable to react quickly to threats (the bulk of the jacket interferes with movement) than to wear it for improved protection in case you did get hit.
1) That peaceful approach was half hearted at best from both sides. Naik Mohammed was killed 1 week after the ceremony wasn't he? Is that enough time for him to work on his side of the deal? We need to abolish FCR and introduce political parties into FATA and stop relying on old British malik system and then we may see change in local attitudes. U-turns are easy to do while sitting in Islamabad, but not so easy in Wana or Miranshah.
2) Balochis have been taking part in politics since at least 1948. It has only gotten them neglect and further strengthened sardari system. Majority of these sardars except 3 high profile ones, are with the government. That should tell you a little about who benefits most from Sardars. I maintain as always that all provinces should get autonomy, especially in finances. If we listen to their just demands, violence can end.
3) They can wear shalwar kameez all they want, but to go out in a landmine infested country with threat of ambush without proper helmets, APCs, bullet proof vests is criminal negligence. All these tall claims of mobility are just excuses. What mobility do they need in a vehicle? Why do all peacekeepers wear bullet proof vests? Look at how the NATO forces in Afghanistan are equipped. Whether they are from interior ministry or agricultural ministry they don't deserve to die like animals. Domestic threats are the reason they are dieing. Shame on all those who are making excuses for FC's desperate situation.
This is not 17th or 18th century where people can be sent to die for their kings in hand to hand combat. All of them deserve vehicles that can offer some protection from landmines at the very least. We treat our jawans like crap and our generals like royalty.
Also, I have seen many Rangers in Karachi with flak jackets. They are also part of the interior ministry yet they can get this but not those in more volatile areas?
And look at the picture of these guys. What do you think their not wearing bullet proof vests or helmets will accomplish? Will they do a somersault and jump away if fired upon? An easy target for landmines, rockets or just bullets. At least a few have helmets.
Get your facts right. The F-16s paid for in the 90s (Block 15 NOT Block 50) have long since been reassigned - 14 to to the Navy’s Top Gun school and 14 to the USAF Test wing as chase planes.