Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

[Shak]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

From what I know FGM has nothing to do with Islam, more cultural. The anti-Islamic rabid media ofcourse forgets this everytime.

[Zafra]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

@Deeba1234

You’re making it sound like it’s more linked to Christianity when Wikipedia seems to be saying it’s just as likely (if not more) to happen to Muslims in Africa as well

2 of the 4 madhabs in Islam (with followers mostly in Africa and Arabia) both say female circumcision is strongly encouraged.. There’s apparently no mention of it in the Qur’an tho, only hadith, so whilst the rulings below show the **historical **views, some scholars say the hadiths are weak and go as far to say it shouldn’t be done now..

Wikipedia seems to imply it’s a cultural practice rather than a religious one which predated Islam in Africa but the line between culture and religion somehow became blurred.. There are a few countries like Malaysia where it’s done but in Africa and parts of the ME is where it stems from..
**
The main article on FGM on Wikipedia gives more detailed info: **

Female genital mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Historical religious views

The historical religious view of Islam, on FGM, varies with the school of Islamic jurisprudence:

• **The Shafi’i school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be wajib (obligatory).
  **
• The Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be makrumah (honorable) and strongly encouraged, to obligatory.[SUP][23]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation#cite_note-aa2008-23)[/SUP]
• The Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be sunnah (optional) and preferred.
• The Hanafi school of Islamic jurisprudence considers female circumcision to be sunnah (preferred).

**
Sunni view**

There are dichotomous differences of opinion among Sunni scholars in regards to female genital cutting. These differences of opinion range from obligatory to acceptable. The Shafi’i and Hanbali schools of Islamic jurisprudence consider circumcision to be obligatory for both males and females, while the Hanafi and Maliki schools of Islamic jurisprudence consider circumcision to be Sunnah (preferred) for both males and females.There is no consensus whether the hadiths support or forbid FGM. Different schools of Islamic jurisprudence have expressed different views on FGM.

(More modern controversy)

Similarly, Al-Azhar - one of the most respected universities of the Islamic World in Cairo - has issued a number of fatwas on female circumcision over its history.On June 23, 1951, a fatwafrom Al-Azhar declared that it does not recognise the abandonment of female circumcision as an option, and that female circumcision is advisable because it curbs “nature”. Moreover, this fatwa declared doctors’ opinions on the disadvantages of female circumcision as irrelevant. On January 29, 1981, another fatwafrom Al-Azhar was authored and proclaimed by the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar. The fatwa insisted that it is impossible to abandon the lessons of Mohammed in favor of the teaching of others, such as doctors, because the science of medicine evolves. The fatwa then recommended to the Islamic community that female circumcision is a duty, and the responsibility of female circumcision lies with the guardian of the girl. In October 1994,the mufti of Egypt publicly declared that hadiths on female circumcision attributed to the Prophet were unreliable; however, within days of this announcement, Shaykh Gad al-Haq Ali of al-Azhar issued a fatwa that female circumcision is a part of the legal body of Islam and is a laudable practice that honors women. Egyptian government, in 1996, banned female circumcision in hospitals and prohibited licensed professionals from performing FGM. However, in 1997, Shaykh Nasr Farid Wasil, Grand Mufti of Egypt, issued a fatwa that female circumcision should be permitted even though it is not obligatory under Islam. Soon after, Egypt’s court overturned the government ban on female circumcision in hospitals and by licensed professionals.[SUP]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation#cite_note-sjanencyclo-56)[/SUP]
In March 2005, Dr Ahmed Talib, Dean of the Faculty of Sharia at Al-Azhar University, stated: "All practices of female circumcision and mutilation are crimes and have no relationship with Islam. Whether it involves the removal of the skin or the cutting of the flesh of the female genital organs… it is not an obligation in Islam."Both Christian and Muslim leaders have publicly denounced the practice of FGM since 1998.A conference at Al-Azhar University in Cairo (December 2006) brought prominent Muslim clergy to denounce the practice as not being necessary under the umbrella of Islam. Although there was some reluctance amongst some of the clergy, who preferred to hand the issue to doctors, making the FGM a medical decision, rather than a religious one, the then Grand Mufti of Egypt, Ali Gomaa signed a resolution denouncing the practice.

Source: Religious views on female genital mutilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is the hadis source of these religious rulings? The reason being is that the ones indicated for non-African countries are not adequate sources.

As an example the source of Bahrain mentions it in passing with no real data or anything. The second source is unavailable on line or in print.

The same can be said for most Muslim countries. There is no documented evidence unlike in Africa (both Muslim and Christian). Specifically in the cases of Egypt, Ethopia, Kenya, Somalia etc.

Its an African tradition that is covered both by Christianity and Islam. But we know your obvious bias against Islam so lets leave it at you believe what you wish.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

Where are these hadith’s? Someone please post them. Thanks.

If this were the case, there would not be such dubious evidence, because the practice would have been widely accepted with all newborn girls getting the procedure done. Therefore, half a century after Muhammad’s death, a lot of women would be circumcised and familiar with the practice. Since it is a PRACTICE and not a “thought”, it would be passed down easily generation to generation, and just the sheer NUMBER of people practicing this would be so high that when the hadith’s were gathered a century to two after Muhammad (SAW)'s death, there would not have been any doubt about this practice.

The mere fact that the hadith is considered weak, and little evidence that a majority of people were practicing it, is science enough that this is a myth. The hadith, like many that were discarded as false, is false. It’s probably just left in the collection because even some dubious weak hadith’s were included - they weren’t all thrown out. Just for sake of academics.

[Deeba1234]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

@Zafra

What is the hadis source of these religious rulings? The reason being is that the ones indicated for non-African countries are not adequate sources.

As an example the source of Bahrain mentions it in passing with no real data or anything. The second source is unavailable on line or in print.

The same can be said for most Muslim countries. There is no documented evidence unlike in Africa (both Muslim and Christian). Specifically in the cases of Egypt, Ethopia, Kenya, Somalia etc.
**
Its an African tradition that is covered both by Christianity and Islam. But we know your obvious bias against Islam so lets leave it at you believe what you wish**.

CAN YOU QUIT WITH THE PERSONAL INSULTS??

YOU specifically wrote first that it was more a Christian thing and I said it was just as likely to happen to Muslims as well as Christians.. I also mentioned the cultural aspect of it… so who exactly is biased?

Go and look it up on Sunnipath instead of getting personal with me if you want specific Islamic references..

[Deeba1234]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

PCG, check out this religious forum, there are several threads there discussing it: Female circumcision and Islam.. For some reason I can’t access Sunnipath to find the info first-hand..

Zafra’s on ignore now so won’t bother answering him in detail.. Second post tonight where he’s gotten personal and accused me of being “anti-Islam”..

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

^ Zafra is Spot on.. TOPIC : In pakistan or even in muslim countries like afganistan, Sudia, Egypt, syria, e.t.c, never heard of it, FGM has nothing to do with ISLAM.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

Sunnipath is a forum, not a research article etc. fatwas when given by appropriate sources like major centers of learning carry some weight especially when they support a clearly feminist stance. When do modern muslim “scholars” support women’s rights when it comes to women being leaders? They don’t although Quran talks about Queen Sheba and Rasul’s two most famous wives held leadership roles/careers. And yet the Hadith on female leadership despite having much written on it’s dubious authenticity hasn’t been repealed in fatwas. Same goes for other controversial topics regarding women.

So if major centers of learning have debunked this theory as nonsense and unIslamic, I figure their evidence is pretty strong and probably more than what sunnipath can offer.

[Zafra]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

@Deeba1234

CAN YOU QUIT WITH THE PERSONAL INSULTS??

YOU specifically wrote first that it was more a Christian thing and I said it was just as likely to happen to Muslims as well as Christians.. I also mentioned the cultural aspect of it… so who exactly is biased?

Go and look it up on Sunnipath instead of getting personal with me if you want specific Islamic references..

It is a African Christian thing. Kenya, Ethopia, Liberia, Cote d’ivoire etc. All Christian countries. Of the 28 countries where FGM is prevalent only 8 are Muslim majority.

Also on that list we do not have South Sudan which is a 98% Christian majority country and has FGM. Simple as that.

As for Sunnipath the website is bull****.

This a UNFPA/USAID joint exercise - http://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/De-linking%20FGM%20from%20Islam%20final%20report.pdf

A summary:
No where in the Quran does it say that FGM is permitted in Islam.
No where in the sunndah does it say FGM is permitted in Islam.
The hadith listed in the link are all considered weak and there is no consensus on the matter.

[Jolie]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

Wikipedia and Sunnipath being quoted as ‘authentic source’ on such a controversial topic? Seriously? Show some credibility. This is probably where the Fox News idiots get their facts from.

Islamic scholars really need to come forward and save the Muslim kids from the fitna of Google Sheikhs, the type that paints everything from FGM to mindless murdering spree as ‘Islamic’. So much misinformation is out there, and its scary how easily people fall for it as long as it suits their agenda, not necessarily knowledge.

[waleedhbk]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

@Jolie

Wikipedia and Sunnipath being quoted as ‘authentic source’ on such a controversial topic? Seriously? Show some credibility. This is probably where the Fox News idiots get their facts from.

Islamic scholars really need to come forward and save the Muslim kids from the fitna of Google Sheikhs, the type that paints everything from FGM to mindless murdering spree as ‘Islamic’. So much misinformation is out there, and its scary how easily people fall for it as long as it suits their agenda, not necessarily knowledge.

Only on GS you will see people using Wiki as authentic sources

[Balthier]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

Skimmed through the article, but it seems like she did not fault her father for the injustice done to her.

Obviously her father, who knew how this malpractice had ruined his wife’s sex life, is a bigger culprit than anyone else in the family.

He failed to protect his daughter when she needed him the most. He should have stood up to the grandfather, and the rest of the community. His childrens well being should have come first.

And as a male, in Pakistani society, he had far bigger chance to stand up for his daughter, than the mother ever did.

[gudiaali]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

@Balthier

Skimmed through the article, but it seems like she did not fault her father for the injustice done to her.

Obviously her father, who knew how this malpractice had ruined his wife’s sex life, is a bigger culprit than anyone else in the family.

He failed to protect his daughter when she needed him the most. He should have stood up to the grandfather, and the rest of the community. His childrens well being should have come first.

And as a male, in Pakistani society, he had far bigger chance to stand up for his daughter, than the mother ever did.

Exactly, that is why i said that don’t know why the men of this community stand up against this tradition.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

If Islam is why this is done, then why are Christians in Africa practicing it? What do the African Christians point to as their source of this custom? Not the Quran I think, right?

Just the fact that the only real link here is African, logic follows it was probably an old African tradition, and African tribes have integrated it into their religious beliefs when they adopted Islam or Christianity.

What the link is with Bohri’s I don’t know, and I’m surprised about this, actually. We know a lot of bohri’s and this is not a known fact in Karachi, I’m sure all of Karachi would gossip about it.

[Sahdia77]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

I have always known many Muslims from countries like Turkey, Morocco, Algeria and Surinam. Some of these are so-called Muslims, many are somewhat practising Muslims and then there are the very strict ones. None of them, no matter how much or less Muslim they were, ever talked about doing this to their females. Just like no Desi Muslim I ever met, has done that. Neither do the Christians in these countries by the way. Not that I heard of anyway.

I’ve only really heard and read Africans talking about this horrible unnatural tradition.

[Balthier]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

What can be done to stop this practice in Pakistan?

Obviously the change needs to come from within the community, but for that to happen, males of that community (as was pointed out by gudiaali) needs to acknowledge that this is wrong and stand up against it. Is there consensus among their ulema about this? If there is, fighting against it will be hard.

[Balthier]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

@Hmmna

This was such a chilling read. FGM always makes me wonder about male circumcision. That is much more common and never challenged.

Because there is consensus among muslim ulema about it. When something is given divine justification, rarely or if ever will it be challenged.

Obviously one should debate the necessity of male circumcision, and the risk of complications, to then conclude whether necessity outweighs the risks or not.

But since there is consensus, such debates will mostly be supressed. Same probably holds true about FGM and ulema of Dawooodi Bohra community. They believe its sanctioned by god, and thus any contrarian opinion is vehemently opposed.

[ekumunng]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

Not common in Pakistan. It is more practiced in Egypt and other African countries.

[Reha]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

Chilling read…

[Iconoclast]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

If it wasn’t mentioned b4, clit is not necessary to achieve orgasm, that’s what I have read. Now I do feel the practice is cruel.

[StrangeOne]

Re: Female genital mutilation in Pakistan?

@Iconoclast

If it wasn’t mentioned b4, clit is not necessary to achieve orgasm, that’s what I have read. Now I do feel the practice is cruel.

I think the damage is a case by case basis. It’s basically a wound that’s going to hurt and for her it hurts exclusively during sex. After reading the following link I think the girl has been luckier.

African Women Organisation