Faith

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

The magic wears. That golden hue about us, that we are special, that childish belief that whoever should read a couple of chapters of our Book would be drawn in, whoever sees the way we live would wish to become us.

The magic wears. Where I live you need to be heavily invested in your belief in order to stay grounded in it. But to me it never was that. It was natural, it drew you into itself on its own accord. Never needed me to want to feel. Want to believe. Strive to believe.

I’ve questioned everything all my life. Even my disbelief before used to be less malevolent. Used to blame it on myself. For not believing in what was manifestly true. I never blamed my faith for anything.

It isnt as major an issue for me, my monsters of faithlessness havent food to nourish on. I do know someone who has reason, incentive, if you will, to lose faith.

I dont want him to.

How do you convince someone else of something you dont know you believe in?

2

You can't.. it's sad but true.. I know exactly how you feel.. i've been there and I couldn't 'deter' him.

You see it's all just rhetoric.. when it comes down to actually believing in something.. there has to be that leap of faith and one has to be prepared to make that leap before anything else can follow.

Maybe the reason you don't want him to lose faith is that somewhere inside of you there is a glimmer of hope that you yourself will find it.
Faith brings hope and assurance that things will be all right.. and most importantly bodes a purpose to life.

Judge him not for not having faith in what you perceive to be the truth.

3

Change the equation. Let faith not be blind. Base it on reason. If you can't reason it, reason and find what convinces you. Don't believe in just because you have been told and you believe it is true. Believe in only if you have all the reasons to know it is true.

If that is the case, then you can put forth reasons for others. They will be convinced. In the process, they may also put back reasons for you, and you may learn potential weaknesses in your reason, learn something from them and accept it.

And so goes on the cycle of knowledge. The only way to get to the truth.

4

Re: Faith

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *

How do you convince someone else of something you dont know you believe in?
[/QUOTE]

u can never....
u'll not make sense and u'll probably contradict ur own self if u try such a thing....
so never even argue on a matter which u havent fully investigated and come up with a conlusion either for or against it....

5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
You see it's all just rhetoric.. when it comes down to actually believing in something.. there has to be that leap of faith and one has to be prepared to make that leap before anything else can follow.

[/QUOTE]

i dont know..i've made many leaps of faith..dont know if i ended up anywhere..

[QUOTE]

Maybe the reason you don't want him to lose faith is that somewhere inside of you there is a glimmer of hope that you yourself will find it.
Faith brings hope and assurance that things will be all right.. and most importantly bodes a purpose to life.

Judge him not for not having faith in what you perceive to be the truth.
[/QUOTE]

exactly how i feel.

[QUOTE]

Change the equation. Let faith not be blind. Base it on reason. If you can't reason it, reason and find what convinces you. Don't believe in just because you have been told and you believe it is true. Believe in only if you have all the reasons to know it is true.

If that is the case, then you can put forth reasons for others. They will be convinced. In the process, they may also put back reasons for you, and you may learn potential weaknesses in your reason, learn something from them and accept it.

And so goes on the cycle of knowledge. The only way to get to the truth.

[/QUOTE]

you think reason can achieve belief? is that how you arrived at the truth?

6

Everyone questions faith.

Throughout life.

Everyone does.

No matter what faith.

It's natural human cynicism I think.

But I also think its better to live a life having faith.

So I think its good to study faith. All faiths. Yours, mine, theirs.

And look at the similarities. The values.

The moral teachings.

And IMHO the moral teachings of all the varieties of faith grant something majestic and magical.

And if the majestic, magical, wonderfulness of faith touches ones heart.

Then you know something special occured.

And I think that specialness is God speaking.

7

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
you think reason can achieve belief? is that how you arrived at the truth?
[/QUOTE]

Oh yes. I kind of "converted" a few years back (even though I was born in a Muslim family.) You can test me- you will find all reasons, whether you agree with them or not is a different issue. Nothing blind.

That was the way of the Prophets when they invited others, the way of Allah in the Qur'an, and the only way for anyone to find truth.

All gratitude and praise be to God.

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by oiqbal: *

Oh yes. I kind of "converted" a few years back (even though I was born in a Muslim family.) You can test me- you will find all reasons, whether you agree with them or not is a different issue. Nothing blind.

That was the way of the Prophets when they invited others, the way of Allah in the Qur'an, and the only way for anyone to find truth.

All gratitude and praise be to God.
[/QUOTE]

Reason is based on knowledge.

To deem the truth you derive from reasoning with your knowledge absolute and unchangeable, you need to have absolute knowledge.

You do not have absolute knowledge. You will never have absolute knowledge.

What can you say about what you believe then?

I guess what Im getting at is the tendency people have to rationalise our present knowledge of the world and deem it as evidence or proof for our beliefs. Eight hundred years ago, Im sure some Muslims would be taking the phenomenon of the Sun revolving around the flat Earth (insert: some other scientific mis-fact) as proof of the gloriousness of their beliefs.

9

Im sorry, Im not so cynical. Atleast the sum of the voices in my head isnt so. For the purpose of debate and reinforcing other voices Im acting out this one. Other voices..including some terribly sick of hearing this one.

Im not this person. I hope not.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
Everyone questions faith.

Throughout life.

Everyone does.

No matter what faith.

It's natural human cynicism I think.

[/QUOTE]

I suppose everyone has faith too then, in your opinion. In the past, everyone used to have BO. Twas equally natural.

[QUOTE]

But I also think its better to live a life having faith.

[/QUOTE]

Why?

[QUOTE]

So I think its good to study faith. All faiths. Yours, mine, theirs.

And look at the similarities. The values.

The moral teachings.

[/QUOTE]

I play computer games. All computer games. FPS. Strategy.

Hundreds of thousands of people live in faithlessness. They find a substitute for God, something else to worship. Other values. Other moralities. Godless philosophies if they need them. None if they dont.

[QUOTE]

And IMHO the moral teachings of all the varieties of faith grant something majestic and magical.

And if the majestic, magical, wonderfulness of faith touches ones heart.

Then you know something special occured.

And I think that specialness is God speaking.
[/QUOTE]

Your magic is in the moral teachings of great faiths. My magic may be in something else. Music. Sex. Romantic novels. Poetry. Wine. Philosophy.

In time we may even find the chemical composition of such magic, such touchings of the heart, such euphoria. We've reduced ourselves to such textbook animals yet, havent we?

Suppose this chemical reaction could be triggered by one such pill. Would you take it?

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *

Reason is based on knowledge.

To deem the truth you derive from reasoning with your knowledge absolute and unchangeable, you need to have absolute knowledge.

You do not have absolute knowledge. You will never have absolute knowledge.

What can you say about what you believe then?

I guess what Im getting at is the tendency people have to rationalise our present knowledge of the world and deem it as evidence or proof for our beliefs. Eight hundred years ago, Im sure some Muslims would be taking the phenomenon of the Sun revolving around the flat Earth (insert: some other scientific mis-fact) as proof of the gloriousness of their beliefs.
[/QUOTE]

Reason is based on knowledge.

Perhaps.

Likely.

Or perhaps based on ones own ability to reason.

Or the way one reasons.

Or all of the above.

To me still...

Simillarities of morality and truth give me reason to believe that God is all of us.

11

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *

Reason is based on knowledge.

Perhaps.

Likely.

Or perhaps based on ones own ability to reason.

[/QUOTE]

reason not based on knowledge isnt reason.

[QUOTE]

To me still...

Simillarities of morality and truth give me reason to believe that God is all of us.
[/QUOTE]

I hope so. That could be "a" reason for you to believe, but then again you're just searching for reasons then, arent you?

Is thats what its about then? Find some excuse to believe?

12

You did not even ask me what my reasons were and neither did you know them. You gave a verdict based on how you perceive reason. Never mind.

One example:
http://www.omeriqbal.com/godexists.html
(If anyone wants to start a discussion on this article, please start a new thread. This thread is on ‘faith’. And if you can, please do read the entire article before you initiate a discussion.)

13

Im sorry. I was just arguing about meta-things. Didnt mean to demean your position. Basically my point was about the implements you can use to arrive at faith. Reason in abstraction, faith in abstraction, knowledge in abstraction. Not particularly about the existence/non-existence of God, order, religion, evolution, or anything or that sort. Not that it wouldnt interest me to talk about that.

I dont really understand what you mean by giving this link then…if you dont want to talk about it. If you dont, then maybe you can talk about some of the though processes you had when you were writing this..regarding how you were reasoning towards faith.

14

I did not want to imply that I do not want to talk about anything. When I gave the link, it is open for discussion. This link was just an example of how using reason one can arrive at a conclusion. I also believe that faith can be and must be arrived with reason, though some may disagree with me. But if one cannot rationalize faith, then one should start questioning and investigating it.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
there has to be that leap of faith and one has to be prepared to make that leap before anything else can follow.

[/QUOTE]

Why do you believe it is a leap of faith that you are muslim? Thanks.

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
Im sorry, Im not so cynical. Atleast the sum of the voices in my head isnt so. For the purpose of debate and reinforcing other voices Im acting out this one. Other voices..including some terribly sick of hearing this one.

Im not this person. I hope not.

I suppose everyone has faith too then, in your opinion. In the past, everyone used to have BO. Twas equally natural.

Why?

I play computer games. All computer games. FPS. Strategy.

Hundreds of thousands of people live in faithlessness. They find a substitute for God, something else to worship. Other values. Other moralities. Godless philosophies if they need them. None if they dont.

Your magic is in the moral teachings of great faiths. My magic may be in something else. Music. Sex. Romantic novels. Poetry. Wine. Philosophy.

In time we may even find the chemical composition of such magic, such touchings of the heart, such euphoria. We've reduced ourselves to such textbook animals yet, havent we?

Suppose this chemical reaction could be triggered by one such pill. Would you take it?
[/QUOTE]

Ravage...

Ok. You wish to tear apart what I am saying.

So be it.

I do think people question faith, and is natural, even entices one to investigate ones own religion, and find their own reason to believe.

In the context that one had some type of faith to begin with...

One might question...

Did Moses really part the dead sea?

One might question..

Did Jesus really bring Lazarus back to life?

One might question..

Did Mohammand really ascend to heaven on a Golden Chariot?

Yeah. I myself question some stories.

My point being though, that when looking at the morality of the Great Books of faith..one can see similarities...and IMHO reinforces ones ability to believe in God.

Am not dissing the practise of anyones belief here. Am rejoicing in the moral similarities of what the great religious books teach. And those similarities IMHO reinforce my belief. And of course is only my opinion.

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PurelyAvgGirl: *
Ravage...

Ok. You wish to tear apart what I am saying.

So be it.

[/QUOTE]

i apologised beforehand! i really agree more with you than disagree..

[QUOTE]

My point being though, that when looking at the morality of the Great Books of faith..one can see similarities...and IMHO reinforces ones ability to believe in God.

Am not dissing the practise of anyones belief here. Am rejoicing in the moral similarities of what the great religious books teach. And those similarities IMHO reinforce my belief. And of course is only my opinion.
[/QUOTE]

morality. tell me more.

18

Love your neighbor.

Respect your parents.

Do not lie.

Do not steal.

My favorite.

Blessed are the poor:
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are the meek:
for they shall posses the land.

Blessed are they who mourn:
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice:
for they shall have their fill.

Blessed are the merciful:
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the clean of heart:
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers:
for they shall be called the children of God.

*Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. *

And by the way..

Isn't that saying nearly the same as..

One who saves the life of [one] is like saving the whole world?