Explosion at a mosque in Sialkot-ehsan/Sectarianism in Pakistan-MadSci

[abc1234]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Irem, when was a last time Sunnis were blown up while praying in a mosque?
[/QUOTE]

hmm...why does that matter in this discussion...? what exactly are you trying to say/allude to...? plz say it clearly so i can provide an exact/relevant answer...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

Some people are in total denial mode all the time.

Most of the vistims of terrorism by Muslims are fellow Muslims. Yet people here find it convenient to blame "foreign agents" or anti-nationals for such attacks.

[/QUOTE]

its true that Muslims are killing Muslims, no doubt about it...however, who's the mastermind behind it? who's taking advantage of the economic poverty of certain Muslims and inciting them...? surely, the Muslims who indulge in these acts are to be condemned, but those who really fuel the fire from behind the scenes are not to be absolved..

and it is pretty obvious to anyone that the people who blow up worshippers in a mosque in Pakistan

• are not adhering to Islamic teachings

• do not care for peace in Pakistan, they want to incite violence in the country

and thus they are anti-nationalist

Maulana Fazlur Rehman who is prolly one of the biggest and so called fundametalist leaders of our country said in an interview recently that that the situation in Pakistan is not such that there needs to be any suicide bombing...yet ppl always drag the molvis and blame them when anything happens...

[antiobl]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

.... thus they are anti-nationalist
[/QUOTE]

Time to denouce Wahabi MAToos. These terrorists are killing Pakistanis. These Munkees are agents of Al-Zaya-hiri.

May Allah keep burn them in hell. They will explode in hell forever. Allah will put a new suicide belt around their necks everyday and let taste the horrible death over and over.

[Minerva]

I agree Maddy :--(

What is the government doing in this regard?? I fail to understand, I am totally speechless. It has come to a point that there are no words left. True this dastardly act is highly condemnable but whats next. Today its the Shias, tomorrow I bet there 'll be a reprisal and a Sunni scholar ( that has been the Shia strategy in retaliation to such attacks) would be killed.This is a vicious cycle and it should end.

[abc1234]

well MS this so called "sectarian strife" is N.O.T. a shia/sunni issue...it is NOT...

its external forces trying to take advantage of this issue and use it towards their own means...

just like they had been taking advtg of ethnic issues in urban sindh in the 90's...

[Talwar]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

its true that Muslims are killing Muslims, no doubt about it...however, who's the mastermind behind it? who's taking advantage of the economic poverty of certain Muslims and inciting them...? surely, the Muslims who indulge in these acts are to be condemned, but those who really fuel the fire from behind the scenes are not to be absolved..
[/quote]

Has there been a single incident that has been proven to be instigated by non-Muslims or non-Pakistanis?

Every time there has been claims made but the truth that you and others don't want to acknowledge is that the sectarian strife in Pakistan is largely created by, instigated by and sponsored by Pakistanis.

You just assume that this is the act of some "misguided" Muslims based on poverty. The proof is that most of these killers are college graduates or have atleast gone to schools.

They are recruited by extremist Pakistani Muslims and are taught to hate and kill minorities.

[quote]
and it is pretty obvious to anyone that the people who blow up worshippers in a mosque in Pakistan

• are not adhering to Islamic teachings

• do not care for peace in Pakistan, they want to incite violence in the country

and thus they are anti-nationalist
[/quote]

Oh yeah? Then why do the people who issue videos taking responsibility say that they are doing it in the name of God?

I recall that after a similar horrific bombing in Quetta, Pakistani authorities blamed RAW. Yet days later, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi released a video to BBC taking responsibility.

Now who trained the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi?

Khaled Ahmed of the Daily Times then wrote that some known Ulema from Quetta had issued fatwas calling for the killing of Shia just days before the attack.

You are just in denial and issue statements without any proof. The same old BS of "True Muslims will not kill other Muslims." Let's get real. "True" Muslims have long been killing fellow Muslims in the name of religion for centuries. They are doing the same whether in Karbala, Quetta or Sialkot.

Stop blaming the fake "external elements" and start looking within.

[abc1234]

*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Time to denouce Wahabi MAToos. These terrorists are killing Pakistanis. These Munkees are agents of Al-Zaya-hiri.

May Allah keep burn them in hell. They will explode in hell forever. Allah will put a new suicide belt around their necks everyday and let taste the horrible death over and over.

antiobl, i dont think i understood what u were trying to say … ? :S ur posts usually “mere sar k oopar se guzar jaati haen” bro… why dont u talk in easy vocab

what is MAToo ? u dint even answer my question last time when i asked u in religion forum…

anyways…

[Madhanee]

Irem, let’s for example say, that tomorrow a Sunni mosque is attacked in similar fashion, and dozens of nimazis blown into pieces. Who would you blame?

[Talwar]

See:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_16-4-2004_pg3_5

---

**One way of dealing with low self-esteem is to deny one’s mistakes. Muslims are generally found in denial about the mistakes they make. But there is also a reluctance to leave the mistake behind as a mystery and move on. The technique of fudging a mistake includes blaming it on someone else. **These days we blame our mistakes mostly on America. Luckily it fits into the American habit of public self-criticism. If someone is setting himself up as a villain, why shouldn’t we take advantage of the opportunity? The disadvantage of this strategy is that we are unable to reform ourselves and keep on repeating our mistakes. This happens especially in times of moral crisis.

Columnist Ataul Haq Qasimi wrote in “Jang” (5 March 2004) that he was greatly uplifted (taza dam kar diya) when I heard the Iraqi Shia saying that 200 of them killed in Iraq on “ashura” was not the work of Muslims (read Sunnis) because no Muslim could do such a thing. The Shia in Iraq instead said that the evil deed was done by someone else (kissi aur ka hath). The columnist then said that the Shia of Pakistan should develop the same kind of thinking (issi soch ki zarurat hai) about the “ashura” massacre of Quetta which killed nearly 50 Shias.

Why should the Shias of Pakistan adopt the attitude of the majority Shia community of Iraq? The Iraqis clearly wanted to put the blame on the Americans. Our Shias too have been doing it although their minority forced them to complain when Sipah Sahaba and its offshoots targeted them repeatedly. The normal practice on the part of the stricken Shias has been to blame the Sunni fanatics as well as the Americans, implying that they murdered the Shias at the behest of the Americans. This jibed with the policy handed down from Tehran. But this has not helped Pakistan in removing the curse of sectarianism from the country. The most foolhardy thing is to say that anyone who kills a Shia is not a Muslim and therefore not found in Pakistan because it is the state for the Muslims. The Hazaras of Quetta clearly knew who had killed their men and pointed to some members of the MMA. Why should we tell this hunted community that they should instead blame it on the Americans?

Famous columnist Abdul Qadir Hassan wrote in “Jang” (5 March 2004) that the “ashura” massacre in Quetta was just like the massacre in Baghdad and Karbala and the Muslims were convinced that it was not done by the Muslims themselves. In present times when America has unleashed its aggression on the Muslims no Muslim group can think of killing another Muslim. In the case of the Quetta massacre another country (read India) can join America in committing this evil deed. Those who investigate the massacre should keep the idea of foreign hand (beruni hath) in their mind.

**It is a pity that a popular columnist should recommend the theory of “foreign hand” when he knows that no one in Pakistan actually believes it and treats the phrase as a joke. The Hazaras have rejected the suggestion that the Indians killed them. They have put some evidence on a website. There are clearly fatwas given out by people on our side that prove that killings were planned by our own people. **Many years from now when our descendants read these columns they will not be very proud of us.

Columnist Irshad Haqqani wrote in “Jang” (5 March 2004) that a foreign office spokesman in Islamabad had stated that the ashura massacre in Quetta had the hand in it of the Indian consulate in Afghanistan. In the Senate the opposition senators thought that it was a conspiracy hatched by a big foreign power.

The foreign office has tarnished its reputation by dragging its hobby horse, India, into what should be called the most shameful deed of our own fanatics. The senators want to blame America and India because they may be linked to some of the killers through faith if not organisation. There is no conspiracy in the killing of the Shia in Pakistan. We have caught some of the killers and hanged them. The blame-game is a collective neurosis.

According to daily “Din” (6 March 2004), a week after “ashura” the banned Sipah Sahaba blocked the path of a Shia procession in Gilgit, after which the administration deployed its paramilitary troops. There were 500 members of the banned organisation and they opened fire on the troops. Two men were seriously injured by the fire. After that army was called out to patrol the city of Gilgit.

What has been happening in Northern Areas over the past year is one of the black holes of our conscience. Mullahs have gone to Shia-dominated areas and given objectionable sermons on the mosque loudspeaker. Tension over objectionable textbooks has also been reported but no one has really investigated the matter. The sectarian problem is our own, not created by America.

---

[abc1234]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

Has there been a single incident that has been proven to be instigated by non-Muslims or non-Pakistanis?

Every time there has been claims made but the truth that you and others don't want to acknowledge is that the sectarian strife in Pakistan is largely created by, instigated by and sponsored by Pakistanis.

You just assume that this is the act of some "misguided" Muslims based on poverty. The proof is that most of these killers are college graduates or have atleast gone to schools.

They are recruited by extremist Pakistani Muslims and are taught to hate and kill minorities.

Oh yeah? Then why do the people who issue videos taking responsibility say that they are doing it in the name of God?

I recall that after a similar horrific bombing in Quetta, Pakistani authorities blamed RAW. Yet days later, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi released a video to BBC taking responsibility.

Now who trained the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi?

Khaled Ahmed of the Daily Times then wrote that some known Ulema from Quetta had issued fatwas calling for the killing of Shia just days before the attack.

You are just in denial and issue statements without any proof. The same old BS of "True Muslims will not kill other Muslims." Let's get real. "True" Muslims have long been killing fellow Muslims in the name of religion for centuries. They are doing the same whether in Karbala, Quetta or Sialkot.

Stop blaming the fake "external elements" and start looking within.
[/QUOTE]

i never said that Pakistanis or Muslims are not involved in these incidents, all i'm saying is that at the very root of these issues are external elements/ vested interests..

the sunnis who kills shias or the shias who kill sunnis in the name of "Islam" have got their own agendas...and it certainy is NOT service to Islam or Pakistan

The proof is that most of these killers are college graduates or have atleast gone to schools. <<

i dont know abt that, but they are usually unemployed and poor

as for some other points u raised in ur post abt lashkar-e-jhangvi or the molvi in quetta: u cant just take everything as it appears on face value or from the angle the media presents it, there's a lot happenning behind the scenes...just believing or accepting what u see on TV or read in the newspapers is imho being too gullible...why not tryta think beyond that and figure things for our ownselves

[Ali_R]

*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Ehsan Bhaijan, I don’t believe that anyone – in Pakistan or outside – would justify what happened – or even try to (even when people come up with theories, they are not justifying what happened). What happens is that misguided brainwashed idiots are being used by keepers of the faith who just want destruction and murder and instability to keep their influence and power. It is just a few and hopefully it will not be long before they are all taken care of.

I hate Mushy with a passion, but I sincerely hope that he spares no effort to bring the morons responsible for this to justice and he doesn’t sleep for a second until that happens.

Those morons r surely not in my eyes keepers of faith. These brainwashers r as bad as howard stern. I say **** em!

Bloody hell!

[Madhanee]

That article is written specifically for people like Irem and other in denial in mind. Thanks for sharing Talwar.

Now Irem will come up with a new theory.

[abc1234]

*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Irem, let’s for example say, that tomorrow a Sunni mosque is attacked in similar fashion, and dozens of nimazis blown into pieces. Who would you blame?

[khudanakhasta…]
i wouldnt be sure who exactly to blame and exact revenge from but i certainly would not say that SHIAS were behind it and then incite violence against shias as an answer, even IF someone from tehrik-e-jafria claims responsibility…b/c in the end i believe in shia-sunni unity [aameen]

[Madhanee]

Very nice Irem…so you wouldn’t be sure. But you are always sure who bombs Shia mosques, and it is usually some ‘foreign’ (non-muslim) forces. Good going.

[Talwar]

*Originally posted by irem: *

i never said that Pakistanis or Muslims are not involved in these incidents, all i’m saying is that at the very root of these issues are external elements/ vested interests..

Where’s your proof? Do you have a SINGLE case of sectarian violence in Pakistan that has been proven to be instigated by “external elements?”

Or is it all - my maamay said this and my chachay said that?

Where’s the proof?

the sunnis who kills shias or the shias who kill sunnis in the name of “Islam” have got their own agendas…and it certainy is NOT service to Islam or Pakistan

Says who? The people who kill say that they are doing it for Islam?

The proof is that most of these killers are college graduates or have atleast gone to schools.

i dont know abt that, but they are usually unemployed and poor

If you don’t know, how do you know?

Let me tell you something. I know from Pakistani media reports that many of the killers are educated and not necessarily poor.

as for some other points u raised in ur post abt lashkar-e-jhangvi or the molvi in quetta: u cant just take everything as it appears on face value or from the angle the media presents it, there’s a lot happenning behind the scenes…just believing or accepting what u see on TV or read in the newspapers is imho being too gullible…why not tryta think beyond that and figure things for our ownselves

1. so the media is wrong

2. The perople blamed by the victims are innocent, the victims are also wrong

3. Don’t believe what you see on TV, newspapers

What do mean., “try to think beyond”. Beyond what? When a group issues video with the suicide bomber saying he kills Shias because he was taught that they are to be killed, we must disbelieve him? When the victims say and give proof that certain mullahs instigated the killers, discard that?

Then let’s “think beyond” and come up with a theory that Jews did it or Aliens did it

People who read news or check facts are not gullible. Gullibility is when you discard facts in favor of pre-existing prejudice or beliefs IMHO.

[abc1234]

*Originally posted by Talwar: *
See:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_16-4-2004_pg3_5

---

**One way of dealing with low self-esteem is to deny one’s mistakes. Muslims are generally found in denial about the mistakes they make. But there is also a reluctance to leave the mistake behind as a mystery and move on. The technique of fudging a mistake includes blaming it on someone else. **These days we blame our mistakes mostly on America. Luckily it fits into the American habit of public self-criticism. If someone is setting himself up as a villain, why shouldn’t we take advantage of the opportunity? The disadvantage of this strategy is that we are unable to reform ourselves and keep on repeating our mistakes. This happens especially in times of moral crisis.

Columnist Ataul Haq Qasimi wrote in “Jang” (5 March 2004) that he was greatly uplifted (taza dam kar diya) when I heard the Iraqi Shia saying that 200 of them killed in Iraq on “ashura” was not the work of Muslims (read Sunnis) because no Muslim could do such a thing. The Shia in Iraq instead said that the evil deed was done by someone else (kissi aur ka hath). The columnist then said that the Shia of Pakistan should develop the same kind of thinking (issi soch ki zarurat hai) about the “ashura” massacre of Quetta which killed nearly 50 Shias.

Why should the Shias of Pakistan adopt the attitude of the majority Shia community of Iraq? The Iraqis clearly wanted to put the blame on the Americans. Our Shias too have been doing it although their minority forced them to complain when Sipah Sahaba and its offshoots targeted them repeatedly. The normal practice on the part of the stricken Shias has been to blame the Sunni fanatics as well as the Americans, implying that they murdered the Shias at the behest of the Americans. This jibed with the policy handed down from Tehran. But this has not helped Pakistan in removing the curse of sectarianism from the country. The most foolhardy thing is to say that anyone who kills a Shia is not a Muslim and therefore not found in Pakistan because it is the state for the Muslims. The Hazaras of Quetta clearly knew who had killed their men and pointed to some members of the MMA. Why should we tell this hunted community that they should instead blame it on the Americans?

Famous columnist Abdul Qadir Hassan wrote in “Jang” (5 March 2004) that the “ashura” massacre in Quetta was just like the massacre in Baghdad and Karbala and the Muslims were convinced that it was not done by the Muslims themselves. In present times when America has unleashed its aggression on the Muslims no Muslim group can think of killing another Muslim. In the case of the Quetta massacre another country (read India) can join America in committing this evil deed. Those who investigate the massacre should keep the idea of foreign hand (beruni hath) in their mind.

**It is a pity that a popular columnist should recommend the theory of “foreign hand” when he knows that no one in Pakistan actually believes it and treats the phrase as a joke. The Hazaras have rejected the suggestion that the Indians killed them. They have put some evidence on a website. There are clearly fatwas given out by people on our side that prove that killings were planned by our own people. **Many years from now when our descendants read these columns they will not be very proud of us.

Columnist Irshad Haqqani wrote in “Jang” (5 March 2004) that a foreign office spokesman in Islamabad had stated that the ashura massacre in Quetta had the hand in it of the Indian consulate in Afghanistan. In the Senate the opposition senators thought that it was a conspiracy hatched by a big foreign power.

The foreign office has tarnished its reputation by dragging its hobby horse, India, into what should be called the most shameful deed of our own fanatics. The senators want to blame America and India because they may be linked to some of the killers through faith if not organisation. There is no conspiracy in the killing of the Shia in Pakistan. We have caught some of the killers and hanged them. The blame-game is a collective neurosis.

According to daily “Din” (6 March 2004), a week after “ashura” the banned Sipah Sahaba blocked the path of a Shia procession in Gilgit, after which the administration deployed its paramilitary troops. There were 500 members of the banned organisation and they opened fire on the troops. Two men were seriously injured by the fire. After that army was called out to patrol the city of Gilgit.

What has been happening in Northern Areas over the past year is one of the black holes of our conscience. Mullahs have gone to Shia-dominated areas and given objectionable sermons on the mosque loudspeaker. Tension over objectionable textbooks has also been reported but no one has really investigated the matter. The sectarian problem is our own, not created by America.

---

• this article is not gospel, and needs to be critically evaluated and questioned not simply accepted

• im not saying every resident of Pakistan or every Muslim is an angel

• im sure there are shias who hate sunnis and sunnis who hate shias but this is a very small minority, lets not project that as the majority please

• the bottomline is: there is an external force there at the very crux of this issue. just like the east india company, the british, took advtg of some corrupt and greedy elements and took over india in the 1800’s…as Pakistanis and Muslims our job is to identify that external force and separate its influence from us, as well as strengthen our own socioeconomic situation so ppl dont take advantage of us…

[queer]

irem, do you have any guesses as who these external forces might be? i would be curious to know which outsider stands to gain by promoting violence in pakistan.

[abc1234]

*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Very nice Irem…so you wouldn’t be sure. But you are always sure who bombs Shia mosques, and it is usually some ‘foreign’ (non-muslim) forces. Good going.

yes i wouldnt be sure WHO was behind it in the sense that WHO exactly (which INDIVIDUAL/ORGANISATION) i should take revenge from, thus, i would not propagate revenge…thats what i meant when i said that i would not be sure abt who exactly was behind it…

but i WOULD be sure that:

• at the very root of the problem ARE foreign [non-Muslim / anti-Islamic] forces

• in no way should my reaction be to even let an inch of hatred or ill feeling against SHIAS seep into my heart in retaliation to the attacks, even if a small group claiming they are shias rise up and say “we’re responsible” … b/c i KNOW that 99% of shias do NOT hate sunnis and 99% of sunnis do NOT hate shias. 99% of shias and sunnis want to exist in peaceful harmony and revere Islam.

[Mr_Fraudia]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
The fact is that the sectarian violence in Pakistan is not fundamentally a foreign driven thing, but a side-effect of a continued set of policies by Pakistani governments since the late 1970s.
[/QUOTE]

I am in agreement with what you are saying, but in the late 70's the policies that were part of the greater scheme in which other countries were involved in as well, KSA and USA to name 2, send the trouible makers from KSA to afghanistan to fight, give them training and weapins thru CIA.

so when I say foriegn elements involved, its those groups, the types that are hiding in WANA, In hindsight it was a bocthed approach to a problem, but at the same time had that approach not worked, Pakistan would have been next I suppose for russkies.

Kher anyways, I do not want to cheapen the blood of those lost by political arguments, this is just a sad state of affairs.

[Ali_R]

*Originally posted by Talwar: *

Where’s your proof? Do you have a SINGLE case of sectarian violence in Pakistan that has been proven to be instigated by “external elements?”

Or is it all - my maamay said this and my chachay said that?

Where’s the proof?

Says who? The people who kill say that they are doing it for Islam?

If you don’t know, how do you know?

Let me tell you something. I know from Pakistani media reports that many of the killers are educated and not necessarily poor.

1. so the media is wrong

2. The perople blamed by the victims are innocent, the victims are also wrong

3. Don’t believe what you see on TV, newspapers

What do mean., “try to think beyond”. Beyond what? When a group issues video with the suicide bomber saying he kills Shias because he was taught that they are to be killed, we must disbelieve him? When the victims say and give proof that certain mullahs instigated the killers, discard that?

Then let’s “think beyond” and come up with a theory that Jews did it or Aliens did it

People who read news or check facts are not gullible. Gullibility is when you discard facts in favor of pre-existing prejudice or beliefs IMHO.

Talwar,

At times there is more than just logic behind such incidents. IF Irem says it can be this and that. It might have some reason, but as u said without proof it is hard to tell. But the same goes for those who believe directly in one source and one Media. (just to remind u that there r many ppl on this board who even would decline reports from PAK media and define them as very biased, but for that exactly those will back the same source!).

Therefore its best to get information from different sources and then use ur own brain then think, think and think.
Not everything is done by US and the Jews…definately not!

This is said to be a sectarian violence Issue. But then I say the Indians r behind that. And since Israel is quite buddy with India these days, you can even go as far (as same would state) that JEWS (zionists) have done it. (If you consider JEWS and ISRAEL as one).

Got me!?!

[antiobl]

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by irem: *
.... "sectarian strife" is **N.O.T.* a shia/sunni issue...

its external forces trying to take advantage of this issue ....
[/QUOTE]

Well may be you have point!

The **W.A.H.A.B.I. **forces from Saudi and A.Y.A.T.U.L.L.A.H. forces from Qum are taking advantage from shia/sunni issue...

But then the Pakistani Mullah's usual cowardice will not let them accept the fact that there are a lot M.U.L.L.A.H. forces within Pakistan taking advantage of this issue.

The sooner Pakistanis realize it, the quicker they will be able to address the problem of bombs in Pakistani-Shia mosques, harassment of Pakistani-Ahmadis, and killing of Pakistani-Christians.