Ex-brigadier thrashes professor over NRO brawl

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
41

Ask what without biased? We have 60 years of history to go by. Is that not enough? From your post, you keep saying that army isn't do anything wrong and political parties are corrupt, but army has been running the country longer than civilians, and can you please explain to me how most generals can afford to send their kids to study in elite western schools with their halal ki kumai?

As for military doing all the kind of qurbanis for the country, thats what they're getting paid for. Its their job.

42

Ask anything without being biased, you have singled out and pointed guns at army in your posts.

60 years of history mein army has been slaughtered and sacrificed many times, mainly in 1971 when the civilian government in west didnt let a leader from the east come up even when he had majority votes and instead sent Army for a crackdown on civilians.

Its because of Army and then the bomb that you are sleeping,eating and $hitting in peace in Pakistan.

Oh I can ask the same about MNA's and MPA's but lets see who is biased and who isnt. At the rank of a Brigadier, after 25+ years of service for armed forces, a residential plot is awarded, this can be sold to sent children for studies.

If you know that the military is paid to do the job and its doing the job then have some self-esteem and stop pointing fingers at it and show some respect to it.

43

Hilarious. :D Your statements carry no weight after this one and not worth responding to.

I do, however, wish they worked on the instructions of elected (read 'selected') government.

BTW, Hingol National Park is supposed to be a 'conserved' area and not a playground for Admirals and Air Marshals.

44

Pretty distorted views you have. I guess you probably don't know what led up to break of the country, and role payed by corrupt and drunken generals.

[quote]
Its because of Army and then the bomb that you are sleeping,eating and $hitting in peace in Pakistan.
[/quote]
Peace? What planet are you on? Pakistan is in civil war and it has lot to do with policies enacted by corrupt generals in last 30+ years. The whole idea of strategic depth and nurturing of jihadi monster was brain child of these morons & the nation is paying for it & will continue to pay for long time to come.

[quote]
Oh I can ask the same about MNA's and MPA's but lets see who is biased and who isnt. At the rank of a Brigadier, after 25+ years of service for armed forces, a residential plot is awarded, this can be sold to sent children for studies.
[/quote]
They are PUBLIC SERVANTS and are compensated for their jobs by tax payers. They do not and should not be getting any plots. Period!! I you don't like the job, find another line of work, but don't think you are doing favor to a nation in all volunteer armed forces and deserve special treatment.

[quote]
If you know that the military is paid to do the job and its doing the job then have some self-esteem and stop pointing fingers at it and show some respect to it.
[/quote]
You cannot demand respect, it something you earned. The day army starts functioning, like armies everywhere else in the world, they day it will have my respect. Until then, I have no reason to respect it becasue it has done nothing good for the country, and Pakistan was not created by these corrupt generals, but ordinary people who paid with their lives in millions.

45

You are obliging no one(not even yourself) for replying my posts. Maybe changing your biased thoughts can help you come to terms with many facts.

46

This coming from a civilian is not a surprise. I can say the same about you, pretty unrealistically weird views you have. Hearing from someone and uttering it all here. I guess you probably dont know who didnt led Indians come and have evening tea in Lahore in 1965.

[QUOTE]

Peace? What planet are you on? Pakistan is in civil war and it has lot to do with policies enacted by corrupt generals in last 30+ years. The whole idea of strategic depth and nurturing of jihadi monster was brain child of these morons & the nation is paying for it & will continue to pay for long time to come.

[/QUOTE]

The same planet that ignorants like you reside on. The civil war that Pakistan faces is being fought and was being fought by the Armed Forces. Have a look through Operations: Rah-e-Nijaat and Rah-e-Raast.
The strategic depth that ignorants like you talk of is always about arming taliban, never about starting jihad in kashmir in the 1990's. By the way, go through news, so you get relieved from your ignorance once in for all. The so called TTP is being armed by anti-pakistan elements especially RAW,CIA etc. The prrof is the foriegn weaponary captured from their stronghold by the Army.
The nation is paying a very good price since Mr.10% has jumped in the seat, mind shedding some light on the 50% cost increase in living since he came in power?

[QUOTE]

They are PUBLIC SERVANTS and are compensated for their jobs by tax payers. They do not and should not be getting any plots. Period!! I you don't like the job, find another line of work, but don't think you are doing favor to a nation in all volunteer armed forces and deserve special treatment.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly, they are the only ones who work on orders only unlike their own civil counterparts whose corruption techniques even leave the satan bewildered with amazement. The armed forces retired personnel dont just deserve plots, they deserve good housing and also much more.
Spending upto 40 years sometimes without questioning an order is not everyones cup of tea, laying down life on a single order is also not everyones privilege also. The officer may not get release from the Armed Forces on his own accord, his resignation maybe rejected and he will dare not oppose the decision or else face court-martial.
They never do any favours, every action is on orders and in the line of duty, otherwise court-martial is all whats left for them. The Government then favour them for slaving away many years of their lives for the nation and gives them perks.

[QUOTE]

You cannot demand respect, it something you earned. The day army starts functioning, like armies everywhere else in the world, they day it will have my respect. Until then, I have no reason to respect it becasue it has done nothing good for the country, and Pakistan was not created by these corrupt generals, but ordinary people who paid with their lives in millions.
[/QUOTE]

Army doesnt demand respect, they get respect by their actions. e.g. in the current operation in NWA, the locals have thanked the army for coming and taking over since the life is getting back to normal. Daewoo bus services have re-opened in certain areas of NWFP where the army has now restored peace.

No one is asking for your respect, ignorants like you who have no idea how army works and what a soldier/officer goes through throughout his career. You lot just watch TV and rely on media on everything with eyes closed. People like you who on action of one idiot (like this brigadier) start seeing the whole of the army through the same channel.Armed Forces are better than that.

47

Isn't that primary job of an army?

Who armed Taliban of Afghanistan? Who forced locals to provide shelters to Taliban who ran from Afghanistan when US invaded? Guess what, those 'guests' are now leading/supporting the anti-Pakistan elements.

Who pardoned those criminals whom you are so gladly calling Mr 10%?

I guess Bhutto told Ziaul Haq to overthrow himself, Nawaz Sharif ordered Musharraf for revolt against himself, correct?

You are talking about poor fighting jawans of army, unfortunately its the brigadiers/colonels of the army who have brought more shame then the jawans.

So when did army court-martial Gen Ayub, Yahya, Ziaul Haq or Musharraf? Please provide news links? Thanks.

48

I am giving you the facts. You are giving us emotions. Please negate any fact I posted. GHQ answerable to the government...... BS. Army is not even responding to Supreme Court's orders to just tell us where you kept the missing persons! The wives and children are waiting to hear if those men are even alive or not!

You yourself acknowledge that Fauji Foundation is an organisation catering for ex-servicemen funded by public money. We have to provide for luxurious life of ex-brigadiers and generals even after they are retired. What leeches!

I mentioned India because you said cantts were developed by British. India was under British rule too and you can drive from Delhi to Madras (twice the distance between Lahore-Karachi) and you won't pass through any privileged cantonment area. You can see atleast 6 cantts driving from Lahore to Pindi on GT Road alone!

I can hardly call houses in Askari estates in Rawalpindi or NORE in Karachi as 'agricultural' land given to the officers.

Hamood ur Rehman Commission Report and "Military Inc" are a good read for you.

49

That is what we pay you to do. Its your job, and if you don't like it, change the damn job, but don't expect nation to give you special treatment for doing your job. You're no better than public school teacher or the police walla. The arrogance shown in your posts is the reason why reputation of the armed forces have been going down.

[quote]
The strategic depth that ignorants like you talk of is always about arming taliban, never about starting jihad in kashmir in the 1990's.
[/quote]
So, I assume that you must have liberated Kashmir by now? Oh, wait, you haven't. What good came out of hijacking indigenous freedom movement, and importing jihadis from across the globe and pushing then into Kashmir? Nothing. Nada. Zilch! Only thing it did was to let Indians win pr batter, and link Kashmiri freedom struggle to terrorism, and use brutal force to suppress Kashmiris and kill 10s of 1000s of them. You think that is some kind of achievement?

[quote]
By the way, go through news, so you get relieved from your ignorance once in for all. The so called TTP is being armed by anti-pakistan elements especially RAW,CIA etc. The prrof is the foriegn weaponary captured from their stronghold by the Army.
[/quote]
Yea, tooth fairy and santa also exist.

[quote]
Spending upto 40 years sometimes without questioning an order is not everyones cup of tea, laying down life on a single order is also not everyones privilege also. The officer may not get release from the Armed Forces on his own accord, his resignation maybe rejected and he will dare not oppose the decision or else face court-martial.
[/quote]
So what? No one forced you to join army or maybe you should've read the contract before signing it. Its very normal in every army in the world. Why do you think people in our military should get special treatment?

[quote]
Army doesnt demand respect, they get respect by their actions. e.g. in the current operation in NWA, the locals have thanked the army for coming and taking over since the life is getting back to normal. Daewoo bus services have re-opened in certain areas of NWFP where the army has now restored peace.
[/quote]
Its kind of like firefighter who puts a house on fire, and thn tries to put out, and hopping to be seen as hero, by rescuing people from burning house. The tribal areas are on fire thanks largely to army and its jihad policies.

[quote]
People like you who on action of one idiot (like this brigadier) start seeing the whole of the army through the same channel.Armed Forces are better than that.
[/quote]
It not just one brigadier, its entire army, and especially the top brass. It can also be seen in your posts here. Army thinks that country exist for them and they can do anything without fear.

50

SargeCandy,

Do you believe in ceasefire? It is time to surrender, you can not win the argument. The other party is much smarter than you and telling you the absolute truth. Accept it and chillout.:)

51

So you finally agree that Army is doing its job, good change.

[QUOTE]

Who armed Taliban of Afghanistan? Who forced locals to provide shelters to Taliban who ran from Afghanistan when US invaded? Guess what, those 'guests' are now leading/supporting the anti-Pakistan elements.

[/QUOTE]

You are asking me because you dont know or what your point?

The Taliban were armed by CIA through ISI/Pakistan.The Russians were a threat to Pakistan as India on one side and Russia,India's ally on other side would have been a strategic defeat in all its sense. Secondly, the Russians had their eyes set on Balochistan as its long term goal.

The locals were not forced to provide shelter to Taliban, the shelter was provided to the afghani refugees and that also on humanitarian grounds as well as because many afghani refugees had relatives on Pakistani side of the border.

The "guests" that you are talking about as anti-pakistan elements are the Taliban who ran from Afghanistan after the initial strikes by US after 9/11. This happened mostly because the border is very porous and the FC stationed there was not equipped to monitor all the border. Secondly, when most of the Taliban went underground, US started pointing its fingers towards Pakistan for harbouring Taliban and India and Israel joined in also.
Most of these Taliban were then hunted down by Pakistani Forces since 2004.With the success ratio going in favour of Pakistan, the TTP sprung up with the help of the axis of evil (primarily US-India-Israel) and then a new chase began again leading to operation rah-e-nijaat now.
Thats a very brief summary.

[QUOTE]

Who pardoned those criminals whom you are so gladly calling Mr 10%?

[/QUOTE]

come again,i didnt get you and reply also what i asked you to.

[QUOTE]

I guess Bhutto told Ziaul Haq to overthrow himself, Nawaz Sharif ordered Musharraf for revolt against himself, correct?

[/QUOTE]

Correct, through their own actions. I am more aware of Nawaz's case losing his nerve and causing deaths to many Pakistani soldiers who had captured strategic peaks that over look the supply line of India for its troops in Siachen and then trying to strip off Musharraf from his rank.

[QUOTE]

You are talking about poor fighting jawans of army, unfortunately its the brigadiers/colonels of the army who have brought more shame then the jawans.

[/QUOTE]

I am talking about everyone who wears the uniform, from the soldier to the general. Its ignorant internet junkies like you who bring shame to the country and its institutions.

[QUOTE]

So when did army court-martial Gen Ayub, Yahya, Ziaul Haq or Musharraf? Please provide news links? Thanks.
[/QUOTE]

Forcing your way through will not help as my comments dont mention any such actions by the generals that you have mentioned.

52

No,I am not being emotional, i just threw your comment back at your face and now you have come up a little sense in your posts.

The current Operations by Armed Forces in the Swat and NWA have been on orders of the Government of Pakistan(GOP). The agencies that have arrested certain people for interrogation also include federal intelligence services that only answer to Interior Ministry or GOP, not the Armed Forces. Try and understand the mix-up here.

Yes i acknowledge about FF and i told you the reason, if you cannot understand the reason, by no means do i plan to drill it inside your head. You are not providing luxurious lifestyle to any one so no one is being a leech on you and the retired servicemen are again serving the nation by given jobs by FF through its different sub-organization, so kudos to such Patriotic Pakistanis who never stop working for Pakistan even after retirement.

I dont see how cantts are priveleged, they house quarters for Armed forces and inside the budget set by the GOP.

The Askari Housing is different from agricultural lands. The Agricultural lands are usually undeveloped lands in different part of the country, given to the serving/retired personnel on merit. Bear in mind, that the house or plots or agricultural land are not given free, the officer has to pay the cost in installments to get the ownership.

53

Good that you acknowledge that the Army does its job l.
The GOP itself gives the Army special treatment (if any) and there is nothing much that you or I can do about it. Go to some court and file a petition if it bothers you that much.
About being better, well what I can say, its your own judgement and frankly I dont care about it.
If you find me arrogant, its maybe because I am bluntly replying all the posts that go against army, its not my fault, I have seen and experienced this institution more than you people.

[QUOTE]

So, I assume that you must have liberated Kashmir by now? Oh, wait, you haven't. What good came out of hijacking indigenous freedom movement, and importing jihadis from across the globe and pushing then into Kashmir? Nothing. Nada. Zilch! Only thing it did was to let Indians win pr batter, and link Kashmiri freedom struggle to terrorism, and use brutal force to suppress Kashmiris and kill 10s of 1000s of them. You think that is some kind of achievement?

[/QUOTE]

Assumptions usually never help so please dont assume. I will tell you the achievements:

The mujahideen had kept atleast 10 divisions + and paramilitary forces (5 lakh soldiers) of the Indian Army busy in kashmir since 1990's. The morale clipping by the Mujahideen had let to suicides in Indian Army ranks as well as jawans shooting officers when not sent on leave etc. The intelligence provided by the mujahideen about Indian troop movement,strength and equipment was vital in planning any offensive in kashmir area in case of a war with India, this also helped in planning of capturing heights of Kargil in 1999. The retaliation shown by the kashmiris for independance from India bought Kashmir to the limelight in the International circles like never before. You have to understand that it took Vietnamese almost 15 years to evacuate the US and other foriegn forces while fighting on open fronts, whereas this was a guerilla war with hit and run tactics so usually such wars as well as proxy wars takes long time, it depends on constant supply of men and ammunation also.
Calling Pakistan a terrorist state (factually always wrongly) has been on Indian agenda even before this movement and even now. This is evident from 1971 to 2001 parliament attacks upto now. The enemy will never let a chance slip by to malign us.

[QUOTE]

Yea, tooth fairy and santa also exist.

So what? No one forced you to join army or maybe you should've read the contract before signing it. Its very normal in every army in the world. Why do you think people in our military should get special treatment?

[/QUOTE]

Go ahead and Enjoy your fantasy with santa and Tooth fairy if they exist for you. As for TTP, the constant damage it has done to Pakistan will have some long lasting effects but the Army is doing a good job in NWA as it has done in Swat.

The training of the officers and jawans in the Armies of Pakistan and India is very different from the rest of the nation. Its tougher and more rigorous than the western counterparts especially because modern equipment(be it communication or firepower) on section/platoon level is non-existant and the human instinct and morale is whats needed to cover up a few gaps sometimes.
Going by your statement, no one cribs in the Army, they know what they have to do and they perform it without cribbing.

[QUOTE]

Its kind of like firefighter who puts a house on fire, and thn tries to put out, and hopping to be seen as hero, by rescuing people from burning house. The tribal areas are on fire thanks largely to army and its jihad policies.

[/QUOTE]

No its nothing like that. The tribal areas are not on fire due to army and its jihadi policies, read some above post of mine where i have briefly explained this scenario.

[QUOTE]

It not just one brigadier, its entire army, and especially the top brass. It can also be seen in your posts here. Army thinks that country exist for them and they can do anything without fear.
[/QUOTE]

You dont know anything about top brass and their posts really to comment about them. As for my posts, I have seen Army more than you so im clearing misunderstandings and there is nothing that I or you can do about it. Go crib to God-Almighty for this now.

54

janab,

Atleast you guys agreed that Army does its job and thats more than an achievement for me to clear misunderstandings about the Armed forces.
While the rest of the country's departments are busy in corruption, atleast one institution is doing its job and i thank you guys for accepting that finally.

55

Only on some occasions, yes, similarly 'civilians' are also doing their job.

Russians had long gone from Afghanistan when Pakistani army armed Talibans (in 1990s).

Dude, either you are ignorant or playing one to be. I am not talking about 'refugee' shelter, try again. Also, it would be nice to hear locals accounts on what you are claiming, locals were told by army to keep them guests before turning guns against them.

The new 'chase'? Nope, it was the same chase, just change of heart willfully or unwillingly. We have been capturing 'top-taliban-leaders' for quite some time now, how did they disappear in Pakistan? I am sure you know about that but are not going to say or admit it here.

Musharraf, NRO... rings a bell?

Siachen's failure was the reason Musharraf overthrew Nawaz Sharif because Mushy failed on that front so he was afraid that he will get in trouble later on.

Not everyone who wears uniform really serves the country, many of them are drunkards too... drunkards of "Islamic republic". Its not the 'internet junkies' who are bringing shame, rather the drunkard army generals who have defamed the country and the religion. Army should've been a reputable institution like rest of the world's armies, but no our army decided to take over the whole Pakistan, from government to corporations to educational institutions.

Forcing my way? Dude read your own comments:

[quote]
They never do any favours, every action is on orders and in the line of duty, otherwise court-martial is all whats left for them. The Government then favour them for slaving away many years of their lives for the nation and gives them perks.
[/quote]

Now tell me, General Ayub, Yahya, Ziaul Haq and Busharraf.... which one of these guys were court-martialed? They all broke constitution. The last one destroyed judiciary too. Now thats some reputation of army.

56

I am sure running government, housing authorities, cement plants, fertilizer factories, clubs, beaches, etc is job of the army.

I wish for once they concentrate on the job they are supposed to do, protect the people who pay for them!!!

57

KB,

You have a point there. That every institution including army should concentrate on their job.

However

we must make a distinction when RETIRED military officers and jawans are involved in business other than the military.

Additionally!

Military work involves both the the active duty AND the retired and wounded veterans, and the families of shahid soldiers.

Taking care of Ghazis and Shaheed families is a HUGE job and I am sure glad that Pak military is doing this IMPORTANT job.

Many of the so called factories are no drain to Pakistani public while they provide an excellent way to support the wounded / retired veterans and the families of the shaheed.

Just wanting to make sure we don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

That's all.

58

Re: Ex-brigadier thrashes professor over NRO brawl

^ Why are retired doctors, engineers, accountants from government service not provided with similar facilities?

I have no issues with providing for Veterans and Shaheeds but please do take a look at the corporations I mentioned. They ARE a drain on resources. Take for example, Fauji Cement. Its being run extremely ineffectively which can be easily seen from the financial statements. The major reason being that board of directors (even technical committee) is mostly composed of retired army officers who have no experience or training in running a cement factory! The thing is funded by fauji foundation which is ultimately funded from Peoples' money. Same goes for ALL corporates being funded and run under fauji foundation.

Why cannot organisation catering for Shaheeds' families, veterans, etc be run by professional civilians?

Regardless of everything, all I wanted was to say was that military should be responsible and answerable to people and ATLEAST respond to summons from supreme court if not stop ghunda gardi on civilians.

59

FF cement is publicly traded company. And as such it has to show its financial statements.

If it is going at loss, then no one would be buying its shares and the company would be closed.

and they have to hire better management.

Is that the case?

Retired engineers and doctors do have the pension plans depending the companies they work for.

And Pak government does have its own benefits package. Those packages are clearly described the day you join the department.

If you don't like them, and you want to have better lifestyle, then try to join the military.

Oh and it should be kept in mind that both engineers and doctors have their professional organizations too.

I am sure they have plenty of opportunities to institute the type of retirement plans they want to have.

60

  1. No, only around 20% shares are publicly traded and performing badly. Will not close down because funds are always available from FF.

  2. I was talking about engg and docs serving the government. Retired Army personnel do have pension plans (and much more) too. Why not stick to them instead of trying to run commercial ventures with public money which they are not trained for. My issue is wastage of public money on these ventures, clubs, authorities and what not.

How come retired brigadiers are qualified to be in the 'technical committee' of board of a cement plant, registrars of university, Director of Pakistan Media Regulatory Authority, directors of Recreational Clubs, so on and so forth.

As I said, I would be willing to go blind on these issues if military is made atleast responsible enough to tell us where husband of Amina Masood Janjua is or what did they do with his body if they killed him.