Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Chapter

Being a Discussion of the Sources which the Ahlus-Sunnah Derive Proofs from: The Book, The Sunnah, and The Understanding of the Pious Predecessors of the Ummah And a Clarification of the Effect of Deviating from the Methodology of the Pious Predecessors in the Affairs of Creed

"… Because everyone claims affiliation to the Book and the Sunnah, and for so long we’ve heard the bewildered youth say statements such as, “O my brother, these people say, ‘The Book and the Sunnah.’ And those people [also] say, ‘The Book and the Sunnah.’ What is the determining judgement?” [It is] the Book, the Sunnah and the methodology of the Pious Predecessors *. So whoever relies upon the Book and the Sunnah without relying upon the Pious Predecessors then he has not relied upon the Book and the Sunnah, but has rather relied upon his intellect, if not his desires … The Prophet’s, (صلى الله عليه وسلم) explanation is of three types:

1 Verbal
2 Action
3 His consent

His verbal [explanations], who conveyed them [to us]? His Companions.
His [explanations in the form of] actions, who conveyed them [to us]? His Companions.
His [explanations in the form of his] consent, who conveyed it [to us]? His Companions.

Due to this, it is not possible for us to restrict ourselves to understanding the Book and the Sunnah based upon our linguistic capabilities alone …"

Full article and PDF version here:

Following the Understanding of the Salaf | The Albaani Site*

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

:jazak:

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Can somebody learned point from the six Sahi books of hadith where the Prophet pbuh has asked us to follow Quran and Sunnah (or companions)? thank you in advance.

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Peace Surdar Asif,

Allah SWT said in the Holy Quran Surah Al Imran verses 31.

Say, [O Muhammad], “If you should love Allah , then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.”

Book ‘Holding Fast to the Quran and Sunnah’ of Sahih Bukhari Hadith No. 387

**Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet :saw2: said, “My example and the example of what I have been sent with is that of a man who came to some people and said, ‘O people! I have seen the enemy’s army with my own eyes, and I am the naked warner; so protect yourselves!’ Then a group of his people obeyed him and fled at night proceeding stealthily till they were safe, while another group of them disbelieved him and stayed at their places till morning when the army came upon them, and killed and ruined them completely So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought.” **

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Thank you Lethal kamikaze. For a Muslim, to follow the Prophet pbuh is to follow Allah swt. No doubts about that.

The conflict within Islam has never been whether to follow Sunnah or not but it has primarily been about the source(s) of the Sunnah.

Therefore I am more asking for Prophet’s commands in regards to source of authority and guidance after the Prophet pbuh. For example in Sahi Muslim and Sunan Tirmidhi Prophet pbuh is said to have asked to cling on to two weighty things (known as Hadees e Saqalain/Thaqalayn) namely book of Allah (Quran) and his family (Ahlay Bayt). Is there any more such traditions in Sahi books pointing towards other sources apart from the Quran and the Ahlay Bayt?

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Peace Surdar Asif,

As far i know there is two sacred source (1) Quran (2) Sunnah. What r u trying to say here?

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

well, every one says, but they take these Quran and sunnah from Quran and many Islamic books,, a Muslim schler can never say any thing from his own, they say what in Quran...

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Peace

There is a curiosity here ... where we are told to refer to the Qur'an and Sunnah by the ardent supporters of that dogma without recourse to following our own opinions, yet when they say the factor that establishes the basis is looking to see what the pious predecessors did ... i.e. the first three generations only then according to their own rules ... we need evidence for this or else that idea if following our own desires.

In the whole article the only evidence given to follow the companions is a poem written and supported by two scholars who were in themselves not part of the companions ... According to that logic they are not the pious predecessors. Even then the poem does not limit us to use other sources for wisdom and interpreting scripture. For example that poem is itself not a valid source according to the criteria, however according to the criteria I follow we can use those poems because they are by scholars.

In fact much of the sources of following the believers has been interpreted as consensus of scholars in every age. It would be more correct for my method to cite the said scholars Ibn Jawziyya and Ibn Taymiyyah than it would be for others who say only the first three generation's sources are valid.

Just an interesting observation.

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Thank you for your response but I do not agree with the fact that you think the poetry is the source of proof for the argument mentioned in the article.

You said you want evidence, did you read the aayah from the Quraan? ** “And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the Believers …” **‘and follows other than the way of the Believers,’ Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, did not mention this sentence in the middle of this aayah in mere jest or in vain, but rather to firmly establish a principle by it, and to lay down a foundation through it, which is: that in understanding the Book of our Lord and the Sunnah of our Prophet it is not permissible for us to rely on our intellect

Tell me please, if you can explain it, who are the believers mentioned in the aayah? Or are you saying that we shouldn't follow the pious predecessors? Who then, should we follow?

What about the saying of the Prophet, “The Jews split into seventy one sects. And the Christians split into seventy two sects. And my nation will split into seventy three sects. All of them are in the Fire except for one.” They said, “Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “It is that which I and my Companions are upon.” This hadith clarifies the aforementioned Path of the Believers in the ayah *for us. Who are the Believers [being referred to] in it? They are those which the Messenger (صلى الله عليه وسلم) mentioned in the *hadith of the sects when asked about the Saved Sect, its methodology, its characteristics, its starting point. So he (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said, “It is that which I and my Companions are upon,” *“It is that which I and my Companions are upon."

*Once again, tell me, if you can, what the saying of the Prophet refers to, "It is that which I and my Companions are upon."

And is, for example, the intellect of one person the same as another's, or is a new muslim's intellect the same as a scholar? Are all of these intellects the same or different? If you say they are the same then there is no pointing carrying on. If you say they are all different intellects, and you have to say this because it is a reality you cannot escape from, then tell me, will the opinion of these people be the same or will it differ? Once again, you have to say it will differ, how can the opinion of a new muslim, for example, be the same as a scholar?

So, now, whose opinion shall we follow? imagine if we multiply the above example to include all the billion odd Muslims in the world and then tell me: should everyone have their own opinion when talking about the Quraan or the Sunnah?

Or is the opinion and understanding of the Companions who saw the Prophet sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, and the students of the Companions and the students of the students of the Companions, better? And why do we mention these three generations? Not because it was mentioned in some poetry, as our dear brother so weakly said, but because of the aayah mentioend above and this hadith:

“The best of the people is my generation, then those who follow them, then those who follow them.”

Three generations according to the Prophet:

1) The Prophet's generation: i.e., the Companions
2) then those who follow them: i.e., the students of the Companions
3) then those who follow them: i.e., the students of the students of the Companions.

And the article was not saying that it only means the first three generations, it means those three at the forefront and everyone who follows their way, as the Prophet, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, said, “It is that which I and my Companions are upon." So of course whoever follow the understanding of the Companions throughout each generation and era, then these are the people who are correct inshaa Allaah, and may Allaah make us from amongst them.

Allaah knows best, and may He guide and help us all.

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Peace Ahmed2011

I read the whole article and did not find anything that satisfied my concern.

Here: The ayah you gave ... ** “And whoever opposes the Messenger after guidance has become clear to him and follows other than the way of the Believers …” **

To me we are all believers and it serves its purpose just as well when we take this to mean the consensus of scholars in every age ... There is no anchor here that specifies "believers" to mean the first 3 noble generations.

Then you say Allah (SWT) had this in the middle of the ayah to lay down the firm foundations of a principle ... where has this idea come from? Was that a statement by the salaf as well, if so who said this? And then how does reliance on the scholars and therefore our intellect mean that we "oppose" ... to me there is no opposition to Allah, or RasoolAllah (SAW) by such people except in the minds of those people who don't want others to use references from generations after the first 3, yet by that token they are doing the same without realising it.

I believe the pious predecessors are a brilliant example for us to follow, however I believe there are brilliant examples in every age as well. You also are obliged to believe that for example you post the works of Shaykh Al-Albani on a regular basis for what reason? It is because you believe him to be the embodiment of the salaf. I don't understand by negating any other scholars after the first 3 generations you are inevitably going to negate the very source that you cite.

As for the hadith well it is the place where we get the term "Ahl-us-Sunnah wal-Jammah" - the translation you have given says "Companions" that would be "Sahabah" - the term "Jammah" means the collective authority at the time of splitting of sects or in two words "consensus of scholars".

Here is the hadith and another version of it again:

** Imam Abu Dawood (Rahimahullah) has quoted the well known Hadith concerning the division of the Muslim Ummah into seventy-three sects in his Sunan (3/4580, English edn):

Abu Amir al-Hawdhani said, "Mu'awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with him) stood among us and said, 'Beware! The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said': 'Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group (Jama'ah).'

Another version of the above Hadith has been reported by Hafiz Ibn Kathir (Rahimahullah) in The signs before the day of Judgement (pg. 14):

"Awf ibn Malik reported that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said, 'The Jews split into 71 sects: one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 sects: 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose hand is my soul, my Ummah will split into 73 sects: one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell.' Someone asked, 'O Messenger ofAllah (Peace be upon him), who will they be?' He replied, 'The main body of the Muslims (al-Jama'ah).' Awf ibn Malik is the only one who reported this Hadith, and its isnad is acceptable." And in another version of this Hadith the Prophet (Peace be upon him) goes onto say that the saved sect, "...Are those who follow my and my Sahaba's path" (Tirmidhi, vol. 2, pg. 89) **

So my point here is that seeing that you limit your references to the first three generations where from their sources can you provide the understanding that "Jammah" does not mean "collective authority" but means "Companions" ??? So to answer you question ... the hadith you quoted is not the only one on this topic and may be cited to serve your own end ... the word is not necessarily "companions", but I may accept it to mean "companions" if you can show any companion (RA) who specifically said this hadith of "Jammah" ONLY means "Companions" - anyone else not from the pious predecessors will be unacceptable to me on the basis that you will not be following your own manhaj.

The next part of your post about following the opinion of a new Muslim compared to a scholar actually supports my view more than yours. The opinion of following only the first three generations is a "new" idea, the traditional scholars didn't have that view ... yes I do believe that they have greater authority and I already operate on that basis, but I don't ignore other works by later scholars who I believe to be rightly guided. The strict criteria given by the article you posted about the first three generations compromises that incentive.

Yes, the first three generation are a benchmark for us all to follow and we can see that they have earned special status with Allah (SWT) and that RasoolAllah (SAW) has vouched for them, but no where in that hadith does it say that we "restrict" our understandings to them and ignore rightly guided scholars from later generations.

"Allah shall raise for this Umma at the head of every century a man who shall renew (or revive) for it its religion"
(Sunan Abu Dawud, Kitab al-Malahim, ch. 1.)

Finally you said:

[quote]
And the article was not saying that it only means the first three generations, it means those three at the forefront and everyone who follows their way, as the Prophet, sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam, said, “It is that which I and my Companions are upon." So of course whoever follow the understanding of the Companions throughout each generation and era, then these are the people who are correct inshaa Allaah, and may Allaah make us from amongst them.
[/quote]

If that is the case then the article has served no purpose because as well as being groups who claim that they follow Qur'an and Sunnah, there are also groups who claim to be most like the salaf. A final point ... I believe another meaning for the term "Jammah" comes from the word to be "gathered" and "together" ... so for me a mark of those groups who like to issue "takfir" on others and separate themselves as exclusive above the rest are not the ones who are bringing togetherness in their works.

Also the people who have received "ijaza" to portray knowledge are connected to the line of scholars going back to the salaf and they would be the ones I choose to seek the example of the pious predecessors in.

Truly Allah (SWT) is the Knower of All affairs.

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

He is just pitching in his sectarian views.

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

I have "pitched" no views so I am not sure what you are trying to comment on. Btw would you classify the nature of this thread as "sectarian"?

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Surdar Asif Bhai don’t be that naïve! Or think that others are.

You very slyly have started plugging your sectarian views!

You very tacitly are trying to dismiss Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all) of the Prophet (peace be upon him).

And then you will plug in that Ahlul Bayt (may Allah be pleased with all) are the only source of Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him)

Then it will be those of Ahlul Bayt (may Allah be pleased with them all) that suit your sectarian version.

True, ain’t it?

Keep in mind that the Prophet (peace be upon him) didn't hold anything back and he taught Islam to everyone without any favours and there is no such thing as exclusive Islam for Ahlul Bayt (may Allah be pleased with them).

But then of course, with your sectarian tinted glasses you will not agree!

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

^Thank you for your attempt once again. Your opinions may be partly right but I am more interested in what Quran and/or Sahi Hadiths say about this matter.

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

Thanks for partially admitting your motive.

Please read the Quran carefully especially where Allah (swt) is full of praise for early Muhajiroon and Ansar and has declared His Pleasure for them and promised them Paradise!!

You talk about Sahih hadith in favour of Sahabah???!!!!????

Try reading it yourself over the Net without any input from the 'Zakirs'. And you will get what you are looking for.

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Re: Everyone says Quran and Sunnah, so who is correct?

In the name of ALLAH, The Most Merciful, The Most Beneficent

[FONT=Book Antiqua][FONT=Times New Roman]"Were you to follow the majority of the people on earth, they will lead you away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture, they do nothing but lie!"size=2.[/size]

Quran and Sunnah is the safest way!

“… The most truthful speech is the Book of Allaah. The best way is the way of Muhammad. The worst of affairs are the novelties and every novelty is an innovation and every innovation is misguidance and every misguidance is in the Fire." (Hadith - Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (3/188).

Abdullah bin Amar (RA) relates that the Holy Prophet ([FONT=MS Sans Serif,arial,verdana,helvetica]صلى الله عليه وسلم) said "Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other **to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sections but my people will be divided into 73 sections, all of them will be in the fire except one." The companions asked,'Who are they Messenger of Allah,' Prophet ([FONT=MS Sans Serif,arial,verdana,helvetica]صلى الله عليه وسلم** ) said*, "They are those who will be like me and my companions*."**

*The Companions were very strict when it came to the Sunnah which can be seen by the example below:
*

Narrated Abu Ja’far:
Jabir bin Abdullah said to me, “Your cousin (Hasan bin Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya) came to me and asked about the bath of Janaba. I replied, ‘The Prophet used to take three handfuls of water, pour them on his head and then pour more water over his body.’ Al-Hasan said to me, ‘I am a hairy man.’ I replied, ‘The Prophet had more hair than you’. “

Two things to be noticed here:

  • People did voice their opinions at that time, even if they somehow went against the Sunnah.
  • Companions were very strict about following and implementing the Sunnah. They could tell people the right thing and not be afraid of reaction. They knew the importance of the message they were delivering and they were confident about it.

To follow the companions means to follow the sunnah because they were the most rigid in following the sunnah.

Assalam u alaikum