education and underachievement

I remember a discussion some time ago about how the PCB should implement formal requirements for minimum ages and educational standards for their players. most people said that they would agree to any such initiative by the PCB. now, there is the other side of coin. and I’d like to give two examples to illustrate my rambling.

Srinath: he was a very good intelligent bowler, quite pacy at his peak. but as most fans will agree he was not a very strong bowler mentally. his body language wasn’t that of an aggressive fast bowler and he often wilted under pressure. it often seemed especially towards the end as if he wasn’t really motivated or interested to be on the field. or at least that is what I felt (please, don’t make this is an Indo-Pak issue etc etc). now, many would say that this was because fast bowling was just not India’s strength but contrast Srinath’s attitude with say Parsad’s attitude. whether he was a good bowler or not he always looked like he meant business. Srinath, on the flip side, looked like a world beater at times and then he would look completely lost.

Saeed Anwar: Many people will remember him as Pakistan’s best opener and premier one-day batsman. But there was another dimension to him and that was his lack of motivation at times. I think many fans will agree that he was a very, very gifted player and capable of being the best in the world, a tag which he even held for a brief period, IMO. but for the longest time, the easiest method to get him out was to bowl outswingers outside off and he would invariably edge one of them. he had this problem throughout his career. one time, when he was dismissed this way a number of times on a trot, the coach/manager pulled him up and asked him to sort it out in the nets, he famously remarked that he was not the only batsman in the team and the team should stop relying on him so much. now, what he said was true because those were the days when if he fired, we’d get a decent total and our bowlers bowled us to a win and if he didn’t, sometimes our bowlers succeeded due to their superhuman efforts but sometimes they didn’t. but would you expect this kinda careless attitude from someone like Waugh, Lara, Tendulkar or any other of Anwar’s contemporaries?

the reason why I chose these two cricketers is because they had a couple of things in common. they were both extremely talented players, they were both well educated and both of them underachieved. I think the correlation between a player’s hunger to succeed/passion for the game and education is not a coincidence - at least in our part of the world. there will always be exceptions like say Imran Khan who despite being educated had an insatiable hunger for success. and obviously not getting educated is not a guarantee for success either - many examples for that exist. but guys like Wasim Akram, Miandad, Inzi etc achieved what they did because they knew they had no option but to succeed. I think guys like Gibbs and Kallis are renowned for being as thickheaded as they come but look at their remarkable careers.

all this is not to say that this is a good pattern or relationship (if it is one at all). I don’t know where I’m going with this :smiley: but I just thought it was little bit interesting and was definitely more than a coincidence. what say you? do you think this is because when you actually stay in school, it matures you and you realize that cricket is only a game and losing is not the end of the world? and to actually sustain the pressure that international cricket piles on you, you have to have a ruthless, single-minded attitude which is not easy to muster when you start thinking that cricket’s only a game. and I think we all know that winning in int’l cricket is all about who handles the pressure better. sorry for the long post guys.

Re: education and underachievement

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*Originally posted by sambrialian: *
do you think this is because when you actually stay in school, it matures you and you realize that cricket is only a game and losing is not the end of the world? and to actually sustain the pressure that international cricket piles on you, you have to have a ruthless, single-minded attitude which is not easy to muster when you start thinking that cricket's only a game. and I think we all know that winning in int'l cricket is all about who handles the pressure better. sorry for the long post guys.
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Good Post. I wish I had the time to reply in detail.
I esp. agree with the above lines.

You dont have to look farther than the English Cricket/Soccer team. A good many of their players would give you an impression of being good,educated and civilized people who are usually calm, composed, just come to field to play like they would go to office to work. They dont get overly excited about losing/winning matches and dont go overboard with praise/criticsim. This lack of agression is not necessarily a good thing....as the English soccer team finds out time and again against the rustic energy of Latin American players.....i.e. good boys more often than not, finish last.

Re: Re: education and underachievement

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*Originally posted by Some1: *
I wish I had the time to reply in detail.
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man, do you ever have the time to reply in detail? you're always in a hurry. j/k but please do post a detailed response when you have some time. I'd be interested in reading your response if you do post one.

btw, I don't know how valid the example of English cricket is. there is a lot that ails them apart from lack of aggression. you can't really say that English teams of the past have been very talented skill wise. one good example, however, would be someone like Atherton, the man had skill but apart from a gritty knock here and there and a good reputation courtesy countless English papers he never really became a matchwinner.

another good example is someone like Rameez Raja though one could argue that he was a player of limited natural ability but it always seemed to me like he didn't really care that much about what happened. he didn't feel it his obligation to stay there and ground the opposition into dust when a batting collapse was imminent though he was the captain of our team and occupied the pivotal opening or number three slot. I'm referring to the 97-98ish season when he captained the side.

^ Arey bhai...more than the "time" problem...I have a daughter who is always looking to get my attention... impossible for me to write a long post with she jumping around my laptop.

so you guys mean education kills the comptetive edge of a sportsman?
seems quite silly to me.
if that is the case then Aussies would not be where they are. and dont tell me that they are not educated.
Dont look at isolated cases to prove your point - even those isolated cases dont tell us anything. English teams,Srinath and Saeed Anwar are not underachievers - they did or are doing the best with whatever talent they had. Srinath was the war horse who alone shouldered the fast bowling mantle over the years...some times looked off color but then it was not his lack of competitiveness which was the cause..

and the success of Brazil team? how can you attribute it to their rustic ness? its an insult to the flair they possess..

Competitiveness , mental toughness and talent - these make a super star. Neither can these be cultivated nor they can be diminished through education. Its just in genes.

I'm a bit lost here - is the gist of the thread 'cricketers who are undereducated are more likely to succeed?'

I don't know if a relationship could be found without a formal study. Rahul Dravid is educated and reads high falutin books like Sun Tsu's art of war etc, and he's a success. On the other hand you have Sehwag who is metric pass hindi medium,also a success. I think more than education it's the hunger inside and the environment outside. For eg, the Indian team has excellent back up in the form of Wright and Dalmiya. I'd say ultimately hunger and talent count for 60% and having a conducive environment that channels this hunger and talent into success counts for 40%.

exactly Karina jee…hamare aapke vichar kitne milte julte hai :love: :blush:

Another good thread Samvi :k: though many will have different opinion but its ok.By the way in your example you can add one more nam L Sivaramakrishan.Probably best spinner that India produced in terms of talent after Bedi & Chandra.

I am really confused here.I am on fence I guess.

What would you say about the other examples where people were of mediocre talent but due to their education and thinking ability they acheived more than what the should have. Best example that comes to my mind is Anil Kumble.

What about players who had great talent but due to lack of education could not handled their life well and couldnot make it big.Like Vinod Kambli.
I am just giving examples of Indian players because I am not sure of educational background of many non-Indian players.

One thing more..that I would like to add is when we talk of education we are here talking about formal education but there are many who just get educated playing international cricket for so many years.What is best education that exposure to whole world.Chance to travle to whole world and meet variety of people all over the world. I think People like Sachin & Wasim may not have had formal education but they managed the were definitly fast learner both of the field and on the field.

:konfused:

Ehsan bhai andar kee baat hai. samjha karain. :wink:

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*Originally posted by sambrialian: *

Ehsan bhai andar kee baat hai. samjha karain. ;-)
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Are bhai Galti ho gaye... :D
Chalo aah Sambi ne bhi achchi posting ki hai.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by bitter: *
if that is the case then Aussies would not be where they are. and dont tell me that they are not educated.
Dont look at isolated cases to prove your point - even those isolated cases dont tell us anything. English teams,Srinath and Saeed Anwar are not underachievers - they did or are doing the best with whatever talent they had. Srinath was the war horse who alone shouldered the fast bowling mantle over the years...some times looked off color but then it was not his lack of competitiveness which was the cause..

and the success of Brazil team? how can you attribute it to their rustic ness? its an insult to the flair they possess..

Competitiveness , mental toughness and talent - these make a super star. Neither can these be cultivated nor they can be diminished through education. Its just in genes.
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I don't think guys like Ponting, Martyn, Lehman, Warne, McGrath, Gillepsie are all that educated though I must say I'm only going by my impression of them. so pardon any inaccuracies

I also said that the English team didn't underachieve and that they are (were is more like it) limited in their abilities. Regarding Srinath, that is your opinion and since you're an Indian fan, frankly you would know better.

But I assure you Saeed Anwar did not do justice to his abilities. There was a time when he was THE number one batsman in the world but does anyone even remember him now or will anyone remember him five years on? will people mention him in the same sentence as De Silva, Lara, Tendulkar etc? probably not and that to me means he underachieved. he was a very, very gifted batsman in my biased opinion and he outshone the above mentioned names at one stage of his career. unfortunately his career tapered off though IMO his abilities did not diminish till the end. he just lost hunger for the game.

now, of couse there are exceptions to this such as Kumble, Dravid as f&b and Karina pointed out. I never did say that this was a scientific hypothesis which I wanted to prove with solid quantitative data. this is just my observation and I also mentioned that I think this applies more to South Asian countries than Aus, SA, NZ etc.

Good thread but I have to disagree. First of all, the thread is based on two isolated examples and as pointed out earlier by one of the guppies that both saeed anwar and srinath were extremely successful. I totally understand your point that you are not referring to overall record of those players but you are more concerned with their approach to the game. Yes saeed’s respond was extremely unprofessional when he was asked to solve his problems in the nets but do you expect an un-educated player to show more commitment and professionalism in same sort of circumstances? As a matter of fact there are tons of examples that could be cited when uneducated players created so much trouble for the team and the country. Wasim Akram, Salem Malik, ijaz ahmed and Azhar-ud-deen are just one of the few examples ( I hope you know what I am trying to refer). Not to mention that none of these players ever passed their high school.

Second, what is the level of qualification for some one to be judged as an educated player? Do you consider some one educated who has a Pakistani or Indian BA degree...if so, almost every one in Pakistani team of 70s was at least a BA...zaheer abbas, majid khan, asif aqbal, wasim raja and wasim bari are some examples and all of them were accomplished competitors. Especially zaheer abbas was known for his hunger for runs and was titled as Asian bradman...

In my opinion there is absolutely no correlation between lack of education and being more competitive at international level... Javed miandad never finished his high school but he was a very intelligent, shrewd and committed cricketer whereas wasim raja and rameez raja both have accomplished master degrees from reputable institutions but they were never that focused especially wasim raja was extremely talented player. So for a second, it seems like you have a point but then the very next second, some one will come up with imran khan, zaheer abbas, rahul dravid and sunil gavaskar examples who were relatively educated players and showed exemplary behavior in term of commitment and hunger for success. Yes, one may outright these examples suggesting them to be one of the few minor exceptions, but, in my humble opinion, one may find tons and tons of examples in favour of both view points. For instance, father of pakistan cricket in early days, abdul hafiz kardar, played such a major role in elevating pakistan cricket, both on the ground and off the ground, beause of his strong organizational skills and well- balanced personality. i believe it had a lot do with his sound educational back ground.

In essence,I believe that it all depends upon your basic nature. If some one lacks concentration and application, he will always be like that no matter how many PHDs he will obtain and vice versa. I would like to cite wasim raja example here who happened to be class fellow of my uncle at Punjab university ( I think it was PU) for his master degree. I remember my uncle telling me once that wasim raja was by far the most intelligent student of that badge but at the same time he had a very careless attitude about life. One can see the reflection of the same attitude in wasim raja’s cricketing career too. Saeed anwar is another example. The fact that saeed never did justice to his abilities has nothing to do with his level of qulaification. I believe that he would have acted the same way had he opted to pursue an engineering career.

However, I would like to see Pakistani players to be more educated because it will be easier for them to accustom themselves to the modern refinements of today’s game. I expect educated Pakistani players to be more pro-active about their fitness and to show more desire to employ modern techniques to improve their game.