"Our military leaders were put to shame . Credit of that goes to our own politicians. Sure Bharatis played their despicable role. "
General Yahya Khan was president at that time. Your blame politician theory is incorrect. He was decision maker having absolute power.
"As Farid wants to drag our army through mud, he would not listen to any reason why we ought to upgrade our capabilities. "
You have already said that in your first para and I agareed to that because I am also saying the same thing. Where in the hell did you get the idea that I want to drag army through mud. It is your faulty assumption. I have already explained that F-16 is not for balancing fire power with India but these would be for so called" war on terror." Why do you want to spend 5Billion for bombing Afghanistan? or some other muslim territory. Local manufactured weapons are sufficient to do the job. i.e killing downrodden poor people.
Rest of your comments again proved my point of view that is army ****up in 1971.
“Coming back to our topic. Farid miyan, you belong to the poor tribals who have no idea of living in a dangerous neighborhood. Weakness here means one thing. A horrible death of your kids. Just see Middle East and learn a lesson.”
What dangerous neighborhood are you talking about? Afghanistan, Iran , China. Definitely it is not India. Comparing crisis in Middle East situation with F-16 is like comparing oranges with apples.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
mAd_ScIeNtIsT,
“Surrender saved the lives of countless thousands of soldiers and civilians who would have died anyway trying to defend land that could not be defended.”
Perhaps you have very scanty information about 1971 tragedy. This should have been thought well before taking military action. Do you think after losing East Pakistan, West Pakistan was in position to defend? Absolutely not. Had Uncle Sam not intervened by threatening Indra Gandhi, West Pakistan would have been history too. If you were not born in 1971, read history. According to you, Quaid-e-Azam was stupid in creating Pakistan which could not be defended. Think before you write anything.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Another thread dedicated to Punjabi bashing. We are large-hearted people who laugh at being called dugga- this doesnt mean that everyone will bash us. We can't sit quietly anymore. 1971 was a consipracy hatched by Pathan high-ranking officers, lazy bengali fishermen, and poor administration by the likes of Yahya Khan and Bhutto- PLEASE be understood that no one was Punjabi.. Poor punjabi soldiers were taken POWs and had to toil in India for nearly 2 years building roads and other humiliating things before they got released.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Coming back to our topic. Farid miyan, you belong to the poor tribals who have no idea of living in a dangerous neighborhood. Weakness here means one thing. A horrible death of your kids. Just see Middle East and learn a lesson.
My best guess is that Farid is a jaahil pathan gatekeeper from Karachi trying to give Punjabis a bad name. Farid baba, have you read "Betrayal in East Pakistan" by Tiger Niazi... Do you have slightest clue who did he lay blame on? Bhutto knew very well he couldn't become Primer minister as long as East Pakistan was there and Mujib-ur-Rehman would seek his rightful cliam to the throne. Anti janab is rt- Bangladesh has become poorer.. Bangladesh belongs to P-7 group of nations (Poorest 7 nations outside Somalia, Ethiopia and other starved countries of Africa), has trade ties with likes of Nepal and Afghanistan and their Mujra Bahini now sells Paan in Dhaka.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Mulz,
If you think it is Punjabi bashing thread, so be it. All major decisions were taken by Punjabis since 1947. Many of them were definitely not in the interest of Pakistan. F-16 decision will also take by Punjab. The question is whether 5Billion be consumed in useless killing machines or these dollars be spent on education, health, roads, water and electricity. Again spending on these social sectors would benefit the Punjabis most. Spending on killing machines would benefit none. Decision is yours.
By the way personally I hate people who use recist or dragatory remarks like Dagga or what ever for any community.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Mulz,
“My best guess is that Farid is a jaahil pathan gatekeeper from Karachi trying to give Punjabis a bad name. Farid baba, have you read "Betrayal in East Pakistan" by Tiger Niazi...”
This shows your calibre. Tiger Niazi was actually (Geedurh) jackal Niazi. He was involved in heinous crimes in East Pakistan. He should have court martial what he did to the country. He could have sustained 6 months, perhaps situation might have changed and break up could have been avoided. Definitely others were also involved in this debacle. But he was the person at site and could have taken bold decision rather than surrendering to Indian general.
“Do you have slightest clue who did he lay blame on? Bhutto knew very well he couldn't become Primer minister as long as East Pakistan was there and Mujib-ur-Rehman would seek his rightful cliam to the throne. Anti janab is rt- Bangladesh has become poorer..:
General Yahya Khan was president. He could have handed over power to Mujib in order to save the break up.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Well if you consider Gen. Yahyah as this grand-pappy, iron-fisted man, while you treat Bhatto and Sheiku as little kids, then I'll buy your argument.
The reality is that Politikos were grown up men who refused to come up with a working formula. Mujib didn't win a single seat in the West, and none of the West Pakistani parties win anything decent in the East.
This was a huge gulf in the political structure that could have only be bridged with mutual acceptance. Unfortunately these grown up men failed Pakistan and Pakistani people.
Yahyah did his part by holding fair elections so he gets 100 points.
Bhattu and Shieku utterly failed to set up a working political structure. They both get 0.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
“My best guess is that Farid is a jaahil pathan gatekeeper from Karachi trying to give Punjabis a bad name. Farid baba, have you read "Betrayal in East Pakistan" by Tiger Niazi...”
This shows your calibre. Tiger Niazi was actually (Geedurh) jackal Niazi. He was involved in heinous crimes in East Pakistan. He should have court martial what he did to the country. He could have sustained 6 months, perhaps situation might have changed and break up could have been avoided. Definitely others were also involved in this debacle. But he was the person at site and could have taken bold decision rather than surrendering to Indian general.
“Do you have slightest clue who did he lay blame on? Bhutto knew very well he couldn't become Primer minister as long as East Pakistan was there and Mujib-ur-Rehman would seek his rightful cliam to the throne. Anti janab is rt- Bangladesh has become poorer..:
General Yahya Khan was president. He could have handed over power to Mujib in order to save the break up.
FARID
Baba Farid,
U r right. Niazi should be blamed for extra-judicial killings and mass rape and murder. But he stated in his book that the generals and high ranking officials had gotten morally corrupted and despite being muslims had immersed in booze and women. They would enjoy young poor Bengali women- rape them for days and then kill them. They raped and killed close to 3 million innocent women. How Islamic is that? He also stated that during surrender most of the officers were so drunk that they couldn't stand straight.
Both Bhutto and Sheikh were power-hungry and no one cared for awam... Yahya was one big bewakoof insaan... Sheikh was later cut to pieces by his own loyals. The problem with these army generals is that they can't read the pulse of the nation.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Mulz Daggay,
"Baba Farid,
U r right........
I think you are tired of calling you (Punjabi) as Dagga. You know why people kept on calling you Dagga because of your stupid attitude towards everyting. By the way how old are you? Moderator erased my two replies to your idiotic posts. In 1969 niether PC nor Internet were invented. Even calculators are invention of 70s. I was shown memeber of this forum since 1969 though this program started in late 1994 or 1995. Confirm this from the moderator.
Respected Brother
Assalam-o-Alaikum
I fully respect your point of view, but I have a humble submission to make. In my opinion, it is not 101% true. The actual figures are considerably less. I admit, there were incidents of excesses, but not to that extent as were later highlighted and propagated by the Bangali and Indian Press. Fully acknowledging the sentiments of my Bengali Muslims Brothers, I really feel for them but if you go back a little, than you would realise the element of exageration in it.
Before the war, Indian Govenment rumoured that 10 million refugees had crossed over from East Pakistan to India. To this John G. Stoessinger, in "Why Nations Go To War', page 133 wrote, 'If this figure is correct, then the mass movement of humanity over eight months of 1971 was the most intensive regionally concentrated large-scale migration in the history of man". One does'nt have to be a mathmatician to note that it is an exageration.
Similarly, on the basis of this hyper inflated figure of refugees, a more preposterous calculation was made. It said that a war with Pakistan to end this refugee crisis would be cheaper for India in terms of national exchequer. Why? Becuase the Bengali refugees would cost India, 900 million $ in one year, which would be 13 times more than the cost of the entire Kashmir war with Pakistan in 1965. Again an extremely exagerated figure.
After the propaganda of refugees, exagerated figures of casualties were propagated. Before going on to the casulaties, just read the following lines;
Firstly, in November 1970, there was a massive cyclone in East Pakistan where rougly 0.5 to 1.0 million people perished.
Secondly, in November 1971, a cyclone hit Indian Bengal killing roughly 20 to 30 thousand people.
Thirdly, the number of dead by Pakistani attrocities was always speculative in Bengali History and never accurate, with extreme variations in different accounts.
Fourthly, vague terms like millions, scores, genocide etc were used without any clear cut number of casualties.
Fifthly, everything was potrayed in an out of proprtion way with exagerations in number of casualties, refugees, and losses.
It is quite strange that a hype of millions and millions of Bengalis, mercilessly killed by Pakistanis is alleged, but no concrete evidence was given. So much so, at many occasions the pictures of those unfortunate people, who died in cyclones, were displaced in different forums as victims of Pakistani attrocities.
I once again admit that there may have been a number of excesses, but exageartions should be avoided.
Wassalam.
Thanks for sharing website on East Pakistan. It would definitely help in understanding what happened in 1971 why majority of Pakistanis left Pakistan and made a new country.
You have to realize that Yahya Khan did the excellent job by holding impartial and mostly fair elections in 1971. Awami League came as winning party. Instead of handing over power to Awami League, Yahya Khan started military action which was absolutely un called for. Result. Breakup of Pakistan, humiliation to whole nation.
My Respected Brother
I admit that there could have been many incidents of excesses by us, but it always takes two to make a quarell. How come we never hear, listen, see or read about the plight of non-Bengalis? My brother the reason is becuase we lost the war. You must be aware that 'Victory is a crown, everybody wants to wear, but defeat is like an illegitimate child, nobody wants to adopt". Moreover, it is also a painful fact that ‘Truth is always with the victor’ . Considering these two quotations, lets summarise the whole issue once again. The very fact that we lost East Pakistan both Politically and Militarilly, had grave consequences. Nobody believed us, becuase we were the losers. And conversily everybody believed the Indians and Bengalis, because they were victorious. This loss cannot be measured in any terms. It was huge in every aspect. And what happened? The whole nation became spell-bound, like a criminal, anything good done ever by us was forgotten. In that state of shock, we remained numb and were not left with any words to speak. Who would, after surrendering more than 90,000 troops. But nobody knows about those valinats who did not surrender and kept on fighting, but alas it was of no use. I know of 31 Baloch Regiment who refused to surrender. There were many more. But admittingly, Indians were, are and will be far ahead of us in terms of propaganda. Those Indians who worship and praise their INDIAN PUNJABIS, maligned the Bengalis so much, that every Pakistani was called as SHOLLA PUNZABI. Yes my brother, this is the power of propaganda. In my last post, I even pasted the sanps of cyclone victims which were portrayed as victims of attrocities, but deleted them myself, becuase they were disturbing to watch. (If you want I can give the reference in a private message).
Over here I would like to attach a stanza probably by Massod Akhtar (I hope I have reproduced it correctly), which is painfully true.
My brother, I was also spell bound, so was my family. I was a kid, but I still remember those dog-fights over Lahore and chilli nights in trenches. But at-least I never let myself bewildered by Indian Propaganda. Over here, I would like to attach one of my own poems. I know, it is not the forum, and it should be in Poetry section, but since, its a matter of my country and her loss, I have attached it nonetheless.
I pray before Allah Almighty to unite all Muslims and all Pakistanis, without any prejudices of Sect, Creed and Ethnicity.
Long Live Pakistan. Ameen.
Wassalam.
Mere bhai Dr. Sufi If pakistan didn’t do anything wrong in East Pakistan with pakistani muslim brothers then why Musharaf appologized in Bangaldesh for all these. Please take a look here Dr Sufi, your all confusion will be cleared. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2157891.stm
Well I guess that if such things are said to a Bangladeshi, he/she will disagree. Mukti Bahini is regarded as heroic in Bangladesh. This is the same as what the Blue-coats were to US and Bolsheviks were to USSR.
These are articles from a Bangladeshi website. I dont think they can be refuted.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
"Baba Farid,
U r right........
I think you are tired of calling you (Punjabi) as Dagga. You know why people kept on calling you Dagga because of your stupid attitude towards everyting. By the way how old are you? Moderator erased my two replies to your idiotic posts. In 1969 niether PC nor Internet were invented. Even calculators are invention of 70s. I was shown memeber of this forum since 1969 though this program started in late 1994 or 1995. Confirm this from the moderator.
FARID
Farid Bihari,
As long as you Bihairs will be in Pakistan we will have problems from you and your fat neck bhaiyya altaf and his "RAW" brothers. It doesn't really matter as to how old I am. You are a classic example of why we Punjabis beat you biharis beat you on the streets of Karachi and in Cricket matches(defeating India). Biahris will never adopt the nation of Pakistan although we Punjabis let them stay peacefully on our lands.
Re: Bush Quietly Pushes Through Pakistan F-16 Deal (merged)
Moderator erased my two replies to your idiotic posts.
FARID
You can post them now or PM me.. I am ready for battle. Poor coward bihari Farid baba- he can't fight me anywhere in my land(Pakistan), so he resorts to expressing his frustation online.. huh!
