Good topic great responses.
[quote]
Originally posted by mangelo:
** Pristine, actually quite to the contrary marriage is a purely biological issue. If education and financial independance were the criterion, then most of the people on the third world countries would go unmarried.
Not many people have the ability to handle their hormones as you might do, that is why in an "ideal society", and I repeat, ideal, it would be better to get married as soon as you hit puberty. but ofcourse we do not live in an ideal socity, so some financial independance is beneficial. You must think I am contradicting myself, which probably I am, but i just want to stress on the fact that its mostly biological and somewhat financial and educational, as you suggested, due to social pitfalls.**
[/quote]
I totally disagree with you about marriage being a purely biological issue. Biology has little to do with marriage. Marriage is more mental and emotional issue. I am sure that even in third world countries people fall in love. What a depressing idea, that we fall in love and marry just because of biological needs.
Self control? I can not understand why a person can't control themselves regarding sex.It really isn't that hard. I see it as a matter of self respect. If you respect yourself you won't do things that are wrong. We are meant to behave as humans not animals.
As to the idea of marriage, right after puberty. For girls this would be very unhealthy. Even though on the outside she may seem all grown up. Inside she still has a lot of developing to do. There can be serious health issues relating to girls having babies during thier young teen years.
Personally I think that people should be at least 25 before they marry. By that age you have finished school, settled into a job, you are an adult in all ways.
Brenda
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!
The reasons why people get married are many and varied. So are reasons why marriages work and why some don’t. These criteria are also different in different periods of history and different parts of the world. But some things have changed for most people all over the world:
1- life expectancy is generally much higher - so no hurry to rush off and have children in case you die early;
2- even the poorest people (men and especially women today) strive for some form of education which is better than that of their parents, which means they are not available to dedicate time to an intense and new relationship
3- people have fewer children, because they know how to limit them
4- the chance of children surviving is much greater, so you don’t need to have ten children to make sure two survive - that means you can start later
5- the resources dedicated to raising children are much greater, so you need to (a) work longer to give them what they need and (b) limit the number of children you have or they may be at a real disadvantage in today’s world
I’m sure that others can add to this list.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**To consider marriage as essentially a biological issue, is perhaps quite unfair and naive. Marriage is a serious step and should be taken with clear thinking.
In essence, marriage means both partners need to take responsibility for each other, to have a level of emotional and psychological maturity to deal with the problems that may follow... and above all, some sort of financial independance. Education is also important and a couple should not hasten their marriage plans unless they are sure that after marriage, they will be able to complete whatever academic targets they have set for themselves.
Every case is unique, so we should not be generalizing this issue. But if a couple can fulfill these more important criteria, then there is nothing to stop them.**
[/quote]
Pristine ji, very well said...
Shirin - awesome argument!
early marriage? absolutely
Better to die 1000 times in glory than live without honor-Louis VI
[quote]
Originally posted by bcsm57:
** I totally disagree with you about marriage being a purely biological issue. Biology has little to do with marriage. Marriage is more mental and emotional issue. I am sure that even in third world countries people fall in love. What a depressing idea, that we fall in love and marry just because of biological needs.
Self control? I can not understand why a person can't control themselves regarding sex.It really isn't that hard. I see it as a matter of self respect. If you respect yourself you won't do things that are wrong. We are meant to behave as humans not animals.
As to the idea of marriage, right after puberty. For girls this would be very unhealthy. Even though on the outside she may seem all grown up. Inside she still has a lot of developing to do. There can be serious health issues relating to girls having babies during thier young teen years.
Personally I think that people should be at least 25 before they marry. By that age you have finished school, settled into a job, you are an adult in all ways.
Brenda
**
[/quote]
Brenda, I don't think it is fair to seperate emotions and mental states from bilogical needs, I believe they are a part of it.
And I understand what you are trying to say, and even wish that were true, but thats an idealistic view and not a realistic one. Love happens due to one's biological needs, why do you think 16 year old teenagers are so love sick? Its because of the hormones.
And again, controlling one's urges is deffinitely doable but its pretty hard, why do you think people get over weight? Its quite similar with sex, some people can control themselves and some can't. I am not saying that its all genetics, all I am saying is that amount of will power required for abstinance is different for different people.
And, finally, can you please tell me how marriage at a young age disrupts a person's education, career ambitions, other long term goals, and how does it differ from the fact that compromises have to be made even if the marriage happens later in life.
Early marriages have a lot of benefits as well, which include, better moral health of society, a smaller number of single moms, reduction in abortions, and so on.
[This message has been edited by mangelo (edited June 12, 2002).]
can you please tell me how marriage at a young age disrupts a person's education, career ambitions, other long term goals, and how does it differ from the fact that compromises have to be made even if the marriage happens later in life.
I have seen a LOT of early marriages, especially in Pakistani communities. Most of the time it does disrupt a person's education (esp the wife's after she gets pregnant, which is like right away after the marriage), and in order to take a short cut to earn money, the time one would normally invest in college, grad school etc has to be put off becuz of the damands of children, etc. I dont know if you've had the privelege of witnessing how marriage life changes the life of a person, but I have. Marriage requires A LOT of time, attention and many many changes. Perhaps, in an ideal situation in which the parents of the boy aren't too pressing upon the new wife, and if both the wife and husband are understanding of each other and each other's desires in life (career's etc), then early marriage can work. But lets face it. Desi parents put a lot of pressure on their bahu's to give them a grandchild ASAP. Bahar mein gaya us ka education, ab tho ghar aur bachay hi uska career hain. That is what the boy's parents claim at least. Of course, not all families are like this, but the vast majority are.
My father wished to be a lawyer. He didn't get married early, but since he came to the US when he was 20 yrs old, he had to do his undergrad again out here. He couldn't afford to move on to law school because he was getting married and he knew that he needed to provide for his wife and kids to be. So the law school aspirations went into the gutter. And again, this wasn't even an early marriage. He was 30 when he got married. It took him 4 years to get his bachelors and the rest of the time to get a steady job. His parents could have provided for him you say? Khak! They were even poorer than him. And in Pakistan, they were considered middle class. In order to keep the household running in Pakistan, he had to send home money. Which is why it took an additional 6 years to get a steady income flowing in which could support his new family in America and his old one in Pakistan at the same time. Now, mashallah, he is doing well. But it took a long time for him to get where he is now. And his law school aspirations are yet to be fulfilled. He's fifty now. I tell him to go to lawschool. Its never too late. But now he has more worries. He needs to put me thru med school and my sis thru law school. That requires him to work even harder to earn money for our grad schools provided that we both cover undergrad tuition and room/board and food with scholarships and our own jobs. Plus he has to worry about himself and my mother after our education is finished. His job doesn't provide him with a pension. Which means, whatever is in the bank is what he'll be relying on until he dies. Plus, he's got to worry about saving up some money and assets to pass on to us in case we dont get married or our husbands decide to screw us or if some mishap befalls on our husbands and our households have to face financial hardship.
yes, life is tough. Not everyone has a cororepati baap to back them up so that saab zada can take a wife and kids and live comfortably and happily while going to school.
For those men and women who know how tough it is to make money and provide for a family know this. They know the risks they take when entering early marriages. If they want to risk giving up their dreams to be professional lawyers, doctors, govt officials, etc, just for some sex, then by all means, let them go ahead. And if they think they're brave enough to handle it, then they have my blessings. After all, every muslim is their own priest, their own imam. The ultimate decision lies with you, not with what society has decided and certainly not with what dead folks thought of a long time ago in a different environment.
PyariCGudya,
I understand your point, and even agree with it, if you read my argument earlier in the thread, I have acknowledged the fact that financial and economical pressures are the main reasons for not marrying early now a days, and these reasons are very valid.
My point is that in a western society, where many students pay for their own education, and have more control over who they want to marry, and where parents and kids (college going) are less of a financial burden on each other, it is not a bad idea to marry early.
And points that you made are very valid, except that in my mind they are a "consequence" of a decayed society, and not a "cause". It is because the attitudes of people that girls have a problem continuing their education, and not because of marriage itself.
Similarly, its a problem with the parents attitude pushing for the couple to have kids right away, and not with the marriage itself.
And finally, my point is that the perception that you have to give up your dreams if you get married, is a fallacy; most people actually achieve their dreams and goals AFTER they get married.
And yeah, compromises have to be made no matter when you get married, and these compromises are not bad at all, you are sacrificing something small to achieve something much greater, which is always worth it, people typically do not make compromises for worse.
where parents and kids (college going) are less of a financial burden on each other
Mangelo, just curious, do you live in a western country?
**
[quote]
Mangelo, just curious, do you live in a western country?**
[/quote]
Yes
[This message has been edited by mangelo (edited June 14, 2002).]
If you don't wanna work at a Gas station or Seven-Eleven all your life(unless your father owns a business,etc) then you will go for early marriage. It's not a great idea in my opinion because it's hard for let's say both husband and wife to continue with their studies...And there are MANY other responsibilities which are more frustrating, trust me!
[This message has been edited by CurruptAngel (edited June 14, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by CurruptAngel:
**
If you don't wanna work at a Gas station or Seven-Eleven all your life(unless your father owns a business,etc) then you will go for early marriage. It's not a great idea in my opinion because it's hard for let's say both husband and wife to continue with their studies...And there are MANY other responsibilities which are more frustrating, trust me!
[This message has been edited by CurruptAngel (edited June 14, 2002).]**
[/quote]
How so?
I have come across many couples who are married and attend the university at the same time. Both spouses work and are independant of financial from their parents and so forth.
There is deffinitely added responsibility, but nothing that cripples you.
[quote]
Originally posted by mangelo:
** Brenda, I don't think it is fair to seperate emotions and mental states from bilogical needs, I believe they are a part of it.
And I understand what you are trying to say, and even wish that were true, but thats an idealistic view and not a realistic one. Love happens due to one's biological needs, why do you think 16 year old teenagers are so love sick? Its because of the hormones.
And again, controlling one's urges is deffinitely doable but its pretty hard, why do you think people get over weight? Its quite similar with sex, some people can control themselves and some can't. I am not saying that its all genetics, all I am saying is that amount of will power required for abstinance is different for different people.
And, finally, can you please tell me how marriage at a young age disrupts a person's education, career ambitions, other long term goals, and how does it differ from the fact that compromises have to be made even if the marriage happens later in life.
Early marriages have a lot of benefits as well, which include, better moral health of society, a smaller number of single moms, reduction in abortions, and so on.
[This message has been edited by mangelo (edited June 12, 2002).]**
[/quote]
I am sorry but I must disagree, I refuse to believe love is based just on biology. Love, at least real love is totally different. Real love is total emotion. It is when you put that person ahead of yourself, never thinking what you will get out of it.
It disrupts them achieving their goals, because they are now have additional family responsibilities, when they should be thinking only of education and career goals. Especially true for women, as they are the ones that can get pregnant. It is better to be educated and established, and then think about a family and children of your own. Plus a woman should at least physicaly be completely grown.
I agree that compromise is a part of life, even if you never marry, but the more you prepare, the less you must compromise.
I think abortions can be reduced through education. As to single mothers, there will always be single mothers, if through nothing other than loss of a husband.
I don't think children getting married is the answer to anything. If I had gotten married at say 14 or 15 I would have been bored silly after the first week!!!
Brenda
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!
mangelo
Just curious, but how young would be the youngest age you would say was ok, for someone to marry? My youngest is 14 and just going into the 9th grade, and has never had a boyfriend. Do you think she is old enough to marry? She will be at least 18 when she marries, as at least in North Carolina you have to have a parent sign if you are under 18.
Brenda
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!!!
I am by no means advocating marriage at the age of 12, and neither am I saying that one must get married by 18 or so. All I am saying is that early marriages do have some advantages.
[quote]
**
I am sorry but I must disagree, I refuse to believe love is based just on biology. Love, at least real love is totally different. Real love is total emotion. It is when you put that person ahead of yourself, never thinking what you will get out of it.
**
[/quote]
Brenda, I wish I knew what real love is, i guess that is another debate, and I am not sure what you are incinuating here.
**
[quote]
It disrupts them achieving their goals, because they are now have additional family responsibilities, when they should be thinking only of education and career goals. Especially true for women, as they are the ones that can get pregnant. It is better to be educated and established, and then think about a family and children of your own. Plus a woman should at least physicaly be completely grown.**
[/quote]
You are correct that its an additional headache and requires additional resoponsibility, but don't you think its better then the dating games in college, and all the distraction they cause?
And you are 100% correct, and I agree with you that women should grow completely physucally before getting married. By no means can i dare to suggest marrying children.
And as long as chances of getting pregnant are concerned, that problem will be there even if the couple is not married.
well you can always avoid distracting dating games by not dating...that's what I've done...I know that most Pakistani teenagers aren't like me, but I think that's because of the way I've been raised and becuase of my self. If you raise a kid properly and you are well aware of where they go and what they do, then you really dont need to worry about them getting knocked up...and even if they do, well, they're well beyong puberty and the sin is upon them, not you as a parent. As long as the parents do their best, after puberty, one's sins are one's own.
[This message has been edited by PyariCgudia (edited June 17, 2002).]
Ofcourse there are lots of advantages of an early marriage. The number of people that we date to find the right one, the number of heart-breaks that we have, are certainly more damaging than having the additional responsibility of a family. And when you dont have to date millions of people, you are able to reserve a part of yourself for that special one that you'll marry.
The added responsibility can also help the youth visualize what life demands of him and how he'll have to go about acheiving that niche. Adapting a career-first attitude can make many people materialistic and not able to realize that there's more to life.
Has anyone got any stats on the likelihood of extra-marital affairs and early marriage?