I was talking on the phone yesterday to a Pakistani friend of mine who is almost 24. Her dad is punjabi and pathan and i believe her mom is just pathan but her dad is from punjab (Multan i think) and mother lived in the big cities. And she’s from a upper-middle class family here in the U.S. She said that if she got married they would have to do dowry. I was shocked! I didn’t think the economically well-off classes did this stuff. When i told her that she said nearly everyone does it. My parents didn’t and they got married in the 60s. My parents are Kerala Iyers for those of u that know what i’m talking about. Kerala is very socially advanced and iyers are too but still i doubt most indian well off families especially in the west do this stuff no matter from what community. Also it is kind of ironic that some people may say that dowry is a hindu custom yet a lot of the Hindu Indians r leaving it while the muslim pakistanis r holding on to it. That is if what my friend says is true and if what i said is true.
There are two different concepts at work here, really.
One is the concept of dowry, viewed in light of Islamic customs. Prophet Muhammad SAW, when he married off his daughter Hazrat Fatima RA, did give her some things as dowry. However, the main telling points regarding that dowry was that i)it was given voluntarily, and ii)it was meant to be Hazrat Fatima's RA property, not to be automatically shared with her husband without her consent.
The second concept of dowry is one inherited from hindu customs, where the girl's parents are virtually mandated to provide a whole house worth of stuff, either in the form of material, or money. At times, even a list is provided by the guys family as a demand list.
Now what happens in Pakistan is usually a combination of the above two. You wont find anyone 'demanding' dowry. As a matter of fact, the usual phrase repeated in marriage discussions from the guy's side is "hamein kuch nahi chahiye....sirf aap ki beti chahiye"(we dont want anything...just your daughter). But if the girls side actually acts upon that advice, they will draw a lot of stares and a lot of yip yap. So in order to ensure that ones daughter wont have to deal with any negative behavior because of less dowry, parents usually load em up.
Another factor that you can count in is the concept of 'Mehr', an amount of money mandated to be paid by the groom to the bride at the time of marriage. So basically, its like both sides contribute to the marriage financially one through a mandated rule (Mehr), and the other through an unwritten rule, dowry.
in india, major headache for girl's father is that expense of marriage is entirely borne by him. this expence in around 5 times the dowry. this is what breaks his back. while dowry, he may still think that money is going to his daughter, the huge money spent on feeding few hundred people and other useless expenditure is something he is normally not inclined to. i think govt. of pakistan did the right thing by banning food in marriages. a similar measure in india will give poor families an excuse for not going for this unreasonable expenditure.
[quote]
Originally posted by Akif:
**There are two different concepts at work here, really.
One is the concept of dowry, viewed in light of Islamic customs. Prophet Muhammad SAW, when he married off his daughter Hazrat Fatima RA, did give her some things as dowry. However, the main telling points regarding that dowry was that i)it was given voluntarily, and ii)it was meant to be Hazrat Fatima's RA property, not to be automatically shared with her husband without her consent.
The second concept of dowry is one inherited from hindu customs, where the girl's parents are virtually mandated to provide a whole house worth of stuff, either in the form of material, or money. At times, even a list is provided by the guys family as a demand list.
Now what happens in Pakistan is usually a combination of the above two. You wont find anyone 'demanding' dowry. As a matter of fact, the usual phrase repeated in marriage discussions from the guy's side is "hamein kuch nahi chahiye....sirf aap ki beti chahiye"(we dont want anything...just your daughter). But if the girls side actually acts upon that advice, they will draw a lot of stares and a lot of yip yap. So in order to ensure that ones daughter wont have to deal with any negative behavior because of less dowry, parents usually load em up.
Another factor that you can count in is the concept of 'Mehr', an amount of money mandated to be paid by the groom to the bride at the time of marriage. So basically, its like both sides contribute to the marriage financially one through a mandated rule (Mehr), and the other through an unwritten rule, dowry.**
[/quote]
I didn't know about the Islamic concept. Thanks for telling me. My friend said something like that though like you should provide for the woman. My thinking is it used to make sense but now that woman work at decent jobs it is not necessary and just creates tension. Note I am mainly talking about people from educated expatriate families. I see since the Islamic concept is voluntary that's OK but it's of course twisted and used in the wrong way. Oh well that's what happens when you have a poor and uneducated society. BTW is dowry in the Hindu scriptures? If so can anyone provide links?
there are references to daughter being gifted a cow by her father in marriage, in vedas.
Another twist on what Akif has said is often heard:
"Aap jo bhi daingay apni beti ko hi daingay." (Meaning "Whatever you give you will give to your daughter.")
Just another way of reminding the family that they are expected to give whether they like it or not.
Some poor souls learn when their daughter is treated badly, sent home or even murdered when nothing comes with her.
[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
*in india, major headache for girl's father is that expense of marriage is entirely borne by him. *
[/quote]
ZZ
I think its the same in Pakistan for the most part with teh exception of pathans I think. Arabs have the opposite as well from whT I recall.
What about the 'Anna' or in some casses 'showing off' involved in wedding the daughters with large dowry. Or spending a fortune on the celebrations.
I have a cousin who got married in Pakistan and the girls side insisted in giving them furniture & other useless things, just to show off. Even though he made clear to them that he doesn't own any cargo planes that will deliver their stuff to Canada.
One way of demanding dowry is as follows;
AAiye janaab tashreef rakhiye. Huzoor hume Dahej vegarah say koi mutlub nahi. Aapki beti , humari bahu.. ab dekhiye, Kul vo Ansari sahib, aap jaante hain vhai jinki TV Factory hai. Unki larkee ka rishta le ke ek sahib aa-ay thay. 10 laakh keh rahe they dahej main. Lekin humne saaf keh diya ke yeh kasie bud tameezi hai. Hume larkee chahiye. business thori karnee hai. Humne jawaab de diya. Humay aise rishte nahi chahiye.
Meaning that 10 lack is not enough.