Doubts set in on Afghan mission

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/fr...ent/2285638.stm

**Doubts set in on Afghan mission **

[My comments, are in this colour]

Troops have often had little to do

By Rupert Wingfield Hayes
BBC correspondent, Afghanistan

I was heading back to Bagram reluctantly. It’s not my favourite place. The last time there I’d got heatstroke.

At 6,000 feet up, sitting on an arid wind blown plateau, Bagram is scorched in the summer, and frozen in the winter. The worst thing is the dust as fine as talcum powder that gets into everything.

In the months since I’d first been there, stories had begun circulating that the US operation in Afghanistan was descending into farce. [They cant fight against people who know the terrain, like a mother knows her child, they cant cope in such an area, where the Soviets couldn’t cope, and the Soviets were a well trained army, and were quite physically tough, and also mentally, compare this to the American who loves his life so much, and who cant face death, whilst he’s facing a ‘enemy’ who is yearning for shahdah].

They had come to hunt down Osama Bin Laden and his al-Qaeda gang. But months of combing the mountains had turned up little. [They call it hit and run operations, more like running operations, rather than hit]

Mistakes had begun to be made - some of them bad ones.

In the worst, in July, a US air strike killed more than 40 Afghans at a wedding party. The guests had been firing their guns into the air - a common way to celebrate in Afghanistan.

There had been no US apology.

As our jeep bumped over the dusty plain a pair of US helicopter gunships scudded across the horizon returning from another mission. Then came the first surprise - the gate.

Order out of chaos

Six months before, the entrance to Bagram had been a ramshackle affair, a rickety guard house and a few rolls of barbed wire.

The US has been criticised for bombing mistakes

Now I was confronted by huge fortified walls and sand-bagged watch towers bristling with machine guns.

A young soldier strode up, a small arsenal strapped to his body.

“Step out of the vehicle please, sir,” he ordered.

For the next half hour our car was emptied and searched, probed and sniffed, then our bags, then ourselves.

Inside, the base was abuzz with activity. New roads being laid, old barrack blocks repaired, and everywhere more and more fortifications.

These people look very nervous, I thought to myself, and they look like they’re here to stay. I was taken to meet a group of clean cut young soldiers fresh off the plane from the States. [Nervous, even in the compounds of their base]

“How do you feel about being here?” I asked a young corporal from Florida.

“I’m proud to be serving my country, sir,” he said. “We have a job to do and I’m glad to be part of it”.

Ground ‘rules’

Every soldier I spoke to was the same, proud, committed, raring to go. But a few minutes later I was wandering towards a long line of plastic portable toilets.

I was hailed by two young soldiers lounging in one of those huge American Humvee jeeps.

Clearly these two were not part of the guided tour.

“Excuse me sir,” they asked. “But do we really have to say this baloney?”

The actual word they used was a little more colourful.

“What baloney?” I asked. They handed me a small laminated card.

On it were instructions on how to deal with journalists. Every soldier had been given one.

These were not just general ground rules. It actually listed suggested answers:

“How do you feel about what you’re doing in Afghanistan”?

Answer: “We’re united in our purpose and committed to achieving our goals.”

“How long do you think that will take?” Answer: “We will stay here as long as it takes to get the job done - sir!” [What American patriotism, whilst the answers are being spoon fed from the top]

Call me naive, but I was amazed. What could they be afraid of? Perhaps of a bit too much honesty. The two young soldiers were far from delighted to be in Afghanistan. [Who would be comfortable in Afghanistan? A area, where most of the people hate foreign invaders, and are hostile to them, especially if they are their for their own good, rather than serving them, and it’s obvious what the USA is there for, not for ‘liberating’ Afghanistan, a la Rumsfield.]

In five-and-a-half months at Bagram, they had been allowed off the base just once. One day inside was enough for me. Five-and-a-half months sounded like a prison sentence.

No answers

But what of the actual military operations? The hunt for al-Qaeda?

I went to meet a colonel in the 82nd Airborne.

“It’s all going extremely well,” he told me. But when it came to specifics he was rather more equivocal. [Lies, Lies, and more Lies]

“We have recently detained a number of important suspects.”

“Who?” I asked. He couldn’t say.

Where did he think the main body of Al Qaeda fighters now were? Again he couldn’t say. -[Dumbfounded.]

Then I asked him about the reports of growing resentment at the large US military presence in the mountains of eastern Afghanistan. Of the road blocks and house-to-house searches, and the growing list of accidental killings.

“Absolutely not,” he insisted. “We are only here because the Afghan people want us to be here.” [Yeh Yeh Yeh, and the sky aint blue, and i’m the president of Mars. The Eastern population of Afghanistan, does not like foreign invaders, nor do they like their women to be harassed, they are a proud, honourable people, many of them will pick the gun up themselves, then rather see themselves being harasses by a bunch of Americans.]

As I left Bagram, dusk was descending like a giant curtain across the Hindu Kush. I felt uneasy, and not just about the long dark drive back to Kabul.

Growing unease

When I’d first arrived in Afghanistan a year before, the Americans were seen as liberators, allies, in the fight to rid Afghanistan of the hated Taleban and their foreign, trouble making, friend Osama Bin Laden. [Look at the whole country, not just Kabul, what would the Afghan population prefer? Security, peace or unease, and internal strife?]

The Americans too had had a clear purpose - to get the “bad guys”. But a year on that goal has faded.

The bad guys have disappeared, melted away in to the mountains and heaving streets of Kandahar and Karachi. [As they said themselves, it’s a guerilla war, not a conventional one[

Among the Americans frustration is growing.

To the local Afghans, they are starting to look increasingly like occupiers. -[Which they are.]

==============================================

Re: Doubts set in on Afghan mission

Yeah and we all know what happened to the last occupiers of afghanistan they used to be called the soviet union :kaboom:

The Next Mullah Omar

Afghan Islamic leader wants U.S. out
By Tom Squitieri
USA TODAY

AHL-E-SHADI, Afghanistan – The leader of Afghanistan’s most radical Islamic group says Afghans are tired of a central government that has no control beyond Kabul and has permitted ‘‘foreigners and outsiders’’ to direct Afghan policy.

Abdurrab Rasul Sayyaf ( also a Pashtoon ) suggested in an interview that Western forces, which he said have nearly completed their mission of driving out the former Taliban regime and Osama bin Laden’s al-Qaeda fighters, should leave soon.

‘‘We have our own laws, our own habits, our own behaviors,’’ said Sayyaf, who has no official role in the current government. Speaking in English, he added, ‘‘My aim is that the purposes of our beliefs should be implemented. That is what I want, for the Afghans to be independent, a country independent of outsiders.’’

Sayyaf’s remarks were the first public indication that he is losing patience at being shut out of the new coalition ruling Afghanistan. He also appears to be accelerating efforts to influence events here through his speeches and other contacts, Western officials said. They said he was hailed as Afghanistan’s future leader when he showed up at the Saudi Embassy earlier this week.

His aspirations could cause problems for Afghan President Hamid Karzai, who is promoting a secular government. An Islamic, isolationist Afghanistan also would hamper the United States in continuing its war on terrorism and its efforts to promote regional economic and political stability.

Sayyaf, a guerrilla fighter in the 1979-89 war against Soviet forces, is the pre-eminent conservative Islamic leader in Afghanistan. His weekly messages from mosques in the Kabul area are carried on radio. According to Western officials, he is supported by hundreds of thousands of Afghans, many of whom believe he should lead the country.

Sayyaf and his followers seek a strictly Islamic nation where foreigners, especially non-Muslims, have no influence. But his interpretation of Islam is not as harsh as the Taliban’s.

After the 1979-89 war, Sayyaf founded the University of Sawal al-Jihad outside Peshawar, Pakistan. U.S., British and other Western intelligence officials have described the institution as a training school for terrorists. Among the graduates: members of the radical Abu Sayyaf group in the Philippines. They took their name from the university’s founder.

Sayyaf refused to recognize Karzai’s government after it was formed last December. But he has since participated in several political events, including the loya jirga (grand council) in June that established Afghanistan’s two-year transitional government.

Interviewed at his heavily guarded hillside headquarters an hour’s drive north of Kabul, Sayyaf would not say whether he believed the U.S.-led intervention that forced out the Taliban nearly a year ago had merit. But he said it was time for the U.S. and other international forces to leave.

‘‘They (the Americans) said they came for two purposes. The first was to give punishment to the Taliban and its regime, which was keeping terrorists. The second was to eliminate the bankers of the terrorists,’’ he said. ‘‘They have punished the Taliban, and they are almost finished eliminating the bankers. They should go, because we want to have good relations and good friendship with the United States in the future.’’

He dismissed charges that he and his supporters are responsible for any of the recent terrorist attacks against the United States, its allies or the Karzai government. The Afghan president narrowly escaped an assassination attempt during a visit earlier this month to the southern city of Kandahar.

He’s no fan of Karzai. Sayyaf accused the government of squandering international resources. ‘‘They are causing the government to get weaker.’’ He said he will continue to speak out against the failures of the U.S.-backed government in Kabul.

As for those U.S. and Western officials who say he must be kept out of power, Sayyaf laughed and took off his turban. ‘‘Do you see horns on my head? I am a human being,’’ he said. ‘‘I fought for my country. Come see me face to face.’’

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20020927/4488604s.htm

American will soon flee away from Afghanistan.

They are facing casualties count weekly, if not daily, many rocket attacks have been reported in Khost, and Eastern Afghanistan since June. If you want reference, check any Pakistani newspaper, even the Jang newspaper, which showed some of the occurences.

It's not just the Mujahideen who are fighting, but also some of the local population seem's to have risen, due to American soldier's rash policies. The Afghan people have a high honour, anyone who messes with their honour will be sent back to their graves.

With crafty strategy, they easily destroyed the Taliban gov't and disrupted Al Quaeda's central operations. With these tasks accomplished, the US military presence won't leave until the new gov't is firmly established. They don't want it to become a breeding ground for terrorists again. I'm sorry that this upsets you, but you should get used to it.

[QUOTE]
With crafty strategy, they easily destroyed the Taliban gov't and disrupted Al Quaeda's central operations.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, they stopped the Taliban from being in power, but no, the Taliban are not finished, far from it, how could all of them dissapear? *Think about it.

They aren't fighting a conventional type of war, they are fighting the guerilla strategy, which is inflicting casualties on the American Soldiers, and coalition soldiers.

[QUOTE]
With these tasks accomplished, the US military presence won't leave until the new gov't is firmly established.
[/QUOTE]

Afghanistan will not be in peace, unless under Islam. The Taliban cleaned up the country. They put an end to the widespread rapes, looting, killing. Women could walk outside again without fear of being kidnapped and dishonored. They put an end to the civil war. They put an end to the poppy and opium production - for the betterment of the world. They were rebuilding the nation with their own hands even though the world had slapped sanctions upon sanctions on them and had abandoned them.

Are you living in cocoo land? Go take a trip to Afghanistan yourself, or ask people who have been to Afghanistan about the situation.

Find out about the real situation. Not the propaganda that you have been fed with, and readily accept.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Majid007: *

Yes, they stopped the Taliban from being in power, but no, the Taliban are not finished, far from it, how could all of them dissapear? *Think about it.

They aren't fighting a conventional type of war, they are fighting the guerilla strategy, which is inflicting casualties on the American Soldiers, and coalition soldiers.

Afghanistan will not be in peace, unless under Islam. The Taliban cleaned up the country. They put an end to the widespread rapes, looting, killing. Women could walk outside again without fear of being kidnapped and dishonored. They put an end to the civil war. They put an end to the poppy and opium production - for the betterment of the world. They were rebuilding the nation with their own hands even though the world had slapped sanctions upon sanctions on them and had abandoned them.

Are you living in cocoo land? Go take a trip to Afghanistan yourself, or ask people who have been to Afghanistan about the situation.

Find out about the real situation. Not the propaganda that you have been fed with, and readily accept.
[/QUOTE]

If they were such darling angels, how come the refugees in Pakistan never dared to move back in their regiime? They were sadistic, brutal thugz, just like the NA people, except that their ethnicity was different... So when are they making a comback from Cuba ;)?

[QUOTE]
If they were such darling angels, how come the refugees in Pakistan never dared to move back in their regiime? They were sadistic, brutal thugz, just like the NA people, except that their ethnicity was different... So when are they making a comback from Cuba
[/QUOTE]

Another poor victim of propaganda.

As I said earlier, go check the situation now in Afghaninstan and compare it to the Taliban regime, ask people who have been to Afghanistan recently, and ask them how the trip was?

Were they scared for their lives whilst travelling? Scared due to the fact of common lootings by thugs? Scared due to the fact of infactional fighting?

There were many people who went back to Afghanistan during the Taliban's time, you really seem ignorant when you come out with them kind of statements, it's obvious you dont know the real situation, do you have relatives in Afghanistan who supply you with information? Has any of your relatives ever been to Afghanistan?

When are they making a comeback from Cuba? What a sarcastic comment, many of the fights in Cuba are being tortured, and you come out with a comment like that? What was their crime? They fought against a nation who fought them, they [the foot soldiers] never did September 11, they were just ordinary men on the front lines.

The comeback will inshAllah be very soon, just read a few hadiths about what will happen in the future, and then you'll get my drift.

i'm sorry for interrupting, Majid and Spock.

Majid007 - that's not accurate. How did the Taliban ensure that women could walk outside "without fear of being kidnapped and dishonored"? Yes they brought some (enforced) stability to the country vis-a-vis law and order, but that was predominantly because people were so terrified of them and their retributive policies. They suppressed all forms of dissent - that's not a representation of an Islamic society. Anyone who refused to join the Taliban, had horrible punishments meted out upon him and/or his family - acid-use is one personal example i have seen. Countless others exist. Propaganda certainly exists everywhere and i am the first to constantly decry the use of it by US media, but the frighteningly bizarre policies the Taliban undertook were not propaganda. They were facts.

[QUOTE]
Anyone who refused to join the Taliban, had horrible punishments meted out upon him and/or his family - acid-use is one personal example i have seen. Countless others exist. Propaganda certainly exists everywhere and i am the first to constantly decry the use of it by US media, but the frighteningly bizarre policies the Taliban undertook were not propaganda. They were facts.
[/QUOTE]

That is something I personally hate. Islam is a just religion, and we should love what Allah loves, and hate what Allah hates.

The fact of the matter is though, Mullah Umar, never asked the people to be like that, the Taliban consisted of many people, some joined just because they were the powerful group at that time, they never advocated using force against innocent people.

The Taliban was like a group, which consisted of many people, and some of them did some really bad stuff, but that doesn't mean we taint the image of the whole group, since the Taliban helped the people of Afghanistan despite sanctions being slapped on it's face.

And i'm sorry there is a lot of propaganda, about there not being girl schools e.t.c., evidence can also be supplied by pictures.

And one more thing concerning the thread:

The US are losing the war of attrition, and are constantly faced with casualties. Looooohsers.

>>The Taliban was like a group, which consisted of many people, and some of them did some really bad stuff, but that doesn't mean we taint the image of the whole group<<
But the group, as a whole, implemented some horrible policies - i mean, the evidence is there for anyone bothering to look. Maybe some of them were good, only Allah Knows who is good and who isn't. The policies that they implemented against the society - having positions like the "Minister of Vice and Virtue", having warlords who could rape and kill as they pleased - these are not statements of propaganda. These are facts.

i don't support the US in its war against Iraq, i didn't support it against Afghanistan but we can't be one sided and lump all the blame on them - recognize the Taliban for the monstrosities that they too committed. We should be more outraged at them rather than the US because the Taliban did all of the above, in our religion's name.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Majid007: *

Another poor victim of propaganda.

As I said earlier, go check the situation now in Afghaninstan and compare it to the Taliban regime, ask people who have been to Afghanistan recently, and ask them how the trip was?

Were they scared for their lives whilst travelling? Scared due to the fact of common lootings by thugs? Scared due to the fact of infactional fighting?

There were many people who went back to Afghanistan during the Taliban's time, you really seem ignorant when you come out with them kind of statements, it's obvious you dont know the real situation, do you have relatives in Afghanistan who supply you with information? Has any of your relatives ever been to Afghanistan?

When are they making a comeback from Cuba? What a sarcastic comment, many of the fights in Cuba are being tortured, and you come out with a comment like that? What was their crime? They fought against a nation who fought them, they [the foot soldiers] never did September 11, they were just ordinary men on the front lines.

The comeback will inshAllah be very soon, just read a few hadiths about what will happen in the future, and then you'll get my drift.
[/QUOTE]

Majid, I have lived in a part where the crux of the refugees from Afghanistan lived and have interacted with them. They hated the Taliban, and not a single farsiwan was ready to return to Afghanistna during the Taliban regime. If you goto Peshawar now, you can ask many landlords there that their usual afghani renters have went back to Afghanistan. The Taliban believed in torture, rape, molestation and murder. I mean kill anyone who aint got a beard, how stupid. Killing women without giving them a trial, and killing them in football stadiums (and dont tell me they dont do that alright!!)... You may think that is good entertainment, but its not. I was once in Peshawar when the mobbed a peaceful RAWA meeting and hurled stones at protesting women, some of which contained educated RAWA afghan women. They were animals, and Im glad they have been dealt with. You have been saying since one year that they will be back, face the truth, they have been done for. They made huge statements, like they will die rather than vacate their cities, especially Kandahar, so why did they run away like cowardS? Its better to die fighting than to give up like cowards. The best they could do was kidnap a bunch of journalists and bring old plane parts and claimed they shot down US planes LOL

May I remind you what happened to the poor Pakistani football team that went there for playing against their team? Their heads were shaven off as a punishment because they didnt have beards... Too bad our team got the sweetest revenge soon afterwards ;)

Majid, that is a big lie... Girls were not allowed to goto schools during the Taliban regime, and I could give you the statement of the ambassador to Paksitan justifying this move by their government. Now dont tell me it was because their government consisted of different ppl, hehe... This just shows their narrow mindedness...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
i'm sorry for interrupting, Majid and Spock.

Majid007 - that's not accurate. How did the Taliban ensure that women could walk outside "without fear of being kidnapped and dishonored"? Yes they brought some (enforced) stability to the country vis-a-vis law and order, but that was predominantly because people were so terrified of them and their retributive policies. They suppressed all forms of dissent - that's not a representation of an Islamic society. Anyone who refused to join the Taliban, had horrible punishments meted out upon him and/or his family - acid-use is one personal example i have seen. Countless others exist. Propaganda certainly exists everywhere and i am the first to constantly decry the use of it by US media, but the frighteningly bizarre policies the Taliban undertook were not propaganda. They were facts.
[/QUOTE]

It is the truth that was admitted by organizers of RAWA that under the Taliban women honor was more secured then any other group that existed before them. They admitted that the number of rapes have dropped dramatically. They did not bring any enforced security or stability especially in Southern and Eastern areas because most of them were from those areas. In places where they were extra hardcore were Northern and former NA strongholds. They allowed the other ethnic groups live in those areas with respect, unlike what is happening now in the North with Pashtoons thanks to American B-52s.

Massacres did happen, people did die, but all these rivalries are ancient. The bloodshed between Hazaras and Pashtoon existed from the days of Ganges Khan. Compare what Taliban did to the Hazaras to the doing of Ganges is nothing. Cities in the South an East are still living their ruined nightmares till this day. Rivalry between Tajiks and Pashtoon existed from the days of Persian Empire when the Persians have tried to enforce their own ideology over the Afghans but never were successful. It was Ahmed Shah Durrani (Abdali) that finally brought the Afghans (Pashtoons) their rightful place in Afghanistan.

I read your thread about skin pilling, I wanted to reply then but couldn’t. Now I can so I will. Skin pilling, nailing people to trees, cutting the bellies of pregnant women, cutting the back of Mujahedeens neck halfway and asking them to hold it together if they wanted to live, were inventions of the desperate Red Army. Later Masood, Rashid Dostom and the men of Hekmatyar adapted these tactics. It was something like monkey did what monkey saw.

Anyways, no here is trying to justify the wrongs or evil that has been done by the Taliban to some people, but one should take in consideration that there were people amongst Taliban that really believed in what they stood for. Like in America, freedom and religious freedom are few of the main reasons why this nation was created, and today, there are not many who can standup behind these reasons all the way when it comes to the entire world.

Supported by US at one time or the other list: Saddam, Kadafi, Zia ul Haq, Taliban, Osama, Ayatola, Musharaaf, Arafat and of course the evil family, the Saudi.

Lovers of Democracy or enforcers of dictatorships?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mokadaar: *

It is the truth that was admitted by organizers of RAWA that under the Taliban women honor was more secured then any other group that existed before them. They admitted that the number of rapes have dropped dramatically. They did not bring any enforced security or stability especially in Southern and Eastern areas because most of them were from those areas. In places where they were extra hardcore were Northern and former NA strongholds. They allowed the other ethnic groups live in those areas with respect, unlike what is happening now in the North with Pashtoons thanks to American B-52s.

[/quote]

Can you prove where RAWA members said they adoredthe security provided to them during the Talibz regime?

[quote]

Massacres did happen, people did die, but all these rivalries are ancient. The bloodshed between Hazaras and Pashtoon existed from the days of Ganges Khan. Compare what Taliban did to the Hazaras to the doing of Ganges is nothing. Cities in the South an East are still living their ruined nightmares till this day. Rivalry between Tajiks and Pashtoon existed from the days of Persian Empire when the Persians have tried to enforce their own ideology over the Afghans but never were successful. It was Ahmed Shah Durrani (Abdali) that finally brought the Afghans (Pashtoons) their rightful place in Afghanistan.

[/quote]

So the Taliban did carry out mass murder... Point proven, I am not interested as to why they did it.

[quote]

I read your thread about skin pilling, I wanted to reply then but couldn’t. Now I can so I will. Skin pilling, nailing people to trees, cutting the bellies of pregnant women, cutting the back of Mujahedeens neck halfway and asking them to hold it together if they wanted to live, were inventions of the desperate Red Army. Later Masood, Rashid Dostom and the men of Hekmatyar adapted these tactics. It was something like monkey did what monkey saw.

[/quote]

so that justifies their actions? You are calling the Talibs a bunch of monkeys? haha

[quote]

Anyways, no here is trying to justify the wrongs or evil that has been done by the Taliban to some people, but one should take in consideration that there were people amongst Taliban that really believed in what they stood for. Like in America, freedom and religious freedom are few of the main reasons why this nation was created, and today, there are not many who can standup behind these reasons all the way when it comes to the entire world.

[/quote]

What did they stand for? killing the opressed?

[quote]

Supported by US at one time or the other list: Saddam, Kadafi, Zia ul Haq, Taliban, Osama, Ayatola, Musharaaf, Arafat and of course the evil family, the Saudi.

[/quote]

So Zia supported the Talibz? hah

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *

Majid, I have lived in a part where the crux of the refugees from Afghanistan lived
[/QUOTE]

Man... how many parts of the world have you lived in? You told me you've been to Canada, USA, and I think Britain and now Afghan to...?

Majid007, I dont think its worth your time argueing with Spock, he is like a follower of busharraf…

Whatever busharraf does, he approves of it strongly, so there is no need of argueing with him…

He even said the bin laden tape was real yet even some americans themselve believe it was fake.

I have argued with him a lot in the past and has gain nothing except telling him some facts which he doesn’t wanna admit due to some reason… probably because busharraf doesn’t approve of em. :hehe:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Majid007: *
And one more thing concerning the thread:

The US are losing the war of attrition, and are constantly faced with casualties. Looooohsers.
[/QUOTE]

Something these people cant grant it as a fact ...

We all know americans are getting their @$$ whopped right now in Afghan, just to cover up the lies, they are telling the world we are winning the war on terror, man what a joke!

lol :hehe: